Hesh Kadesh Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 If you look at the Legions best, you have some pretty incredible characters; Abaddon, in game is slapping out 6 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3's, wounding on 4's with his power sword, while his power fist has 5 on the charge hitting on 3's, killing on 2's. An enemy praetor is taking 3 Instant Death wounds per turn. Against most things, his fiat is the most useful, but there are occasions when the sword comes in tidy (Rad naded Imperial Army) etc. Khârn, I've actually not tested much, but 7 S5 attacks on the charge blend units. If in assassination mode, he needs Angrons axe, but you also have Red butchers for that. Put him in a tac/breacher squad, and watch them murder things. Eidolon; 5 S8 AP2 i7 attacks on the charge with a +1 to distance rolled? Go on then. Hopefully he will get some buffs come Book 6 from legion rules. Sigismund; do I beed to explain how incredible EW 4 wounds and 5 S6 AP2 i6 attacks rerolling successful invulnerable saves is? Sevatar; 5 Rending Ap3 atracks is a bit naff, until you realise that with Prescience and Dirty Fighter combined with outnumbering bonuses, he is slotting away 5 Reroll to hit on a 3+ (and fear causing), reroll to wound on a 2+, with instant death. Filthy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 I'd place Eikos Lamiad above Nicodemus, purely based on the fact he put Abaddon on his arse in a couple of minutes in their honour duel at Ullanor. That and he fought at the Battle of Calth with one arm - boss. But yeah it's a pretty subjective....erm subject. And Rohr is right, the First Captain wasn't always the greatest warrior, and First Captain wasn't always the highest rank within a Legion, just look at the Emperor's Children and their Lord Commanders, or the Salamanders and the Pyre Guard (sorry too soon?). What about where there's several candidates? The III Legion all pride themselves as swordsmen and there's plenty there who'd be contenders within the Legion. Then you've got the World Eaters; Delvarus is the undisputed champion in the pits but would he ever beat Khârn in sanguinis extremis is debatable or the Blood Angels with Raldoron acknowledged as an outstanding warrior but you've got Amit also renowned among the Legions to say nothing of Azkaellon as herald of Sanguinius Plus it's hard to account for Legions who place unity of action above personal prowess such as the Death Guard/Iron Warriors/Alpha Legion and possibly even the Ultramarines.. The only really concrete ones we have are: Corswain Jubal Khan Sigismund Sevatar Raldoron Khârn Abaddon When did Lamiad beat Abaddon? Was it mentioned in Know No Fear? As for WS...I believe Qin Xa might be as good if not better than Jubal Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 When did Lamiad beat Abaddon? Was it mentioned in Know No Fear? As for WS...I believe Qin Xa might be as good if not better than Jubal It was actually mentioned in Vengeful Spirit. As for Qin Xa, I listed Jubal Khan purely because he went 1 on 1 with Sigismund in an honour duel (which I'm assuming was specially between the best warriors in each Legion.) Of course the failing with my assumption is that it wasn't between the best warriors or that Qin Xa simply wasn't present Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 In short, there's very, VERY few characters who had any history prior to Horus Rising, outside of the few who were granted some backstory in the various Chaos Codices or little blurbs of fluff like Kargos in the old second ed Codex Imperialis. Abaddon/Khârn/Ahriman have been around a fair while. Typhus/Typhon appeared in the 3rd ed dex along with Lucius. Loyalist wise, only Sigismund's story made it through with him being the founding High Marshal of the Black Templars and Bjorn Fel-hand for obvious reasons has been around a long, long time. This is one of the best things about the HH, characters for Legions who took part in some mighty important events get fleshed out and (in some cases) we get creations of literacy genius like Sevatar. I mean seriously how many people are supposed to enjoy reading about a psychopathic transhuman murderer. As for Corswain, as far as I understand he first appeared in Savage weapons as Paladin of the 9th Order (take that as you will) who eventually rose to Seneschal of the I Legion whilst the Lion went day tripping. And his name is mentioned in Sevatar's rules entry in Massacre as being eminent amongst the other Legions. That and when I asked Alan Bligh how they managed to right balanced rules for the best warrior among the Legions (meaning Sigismund) he simply replied "We haven't done Corswain yet" This rustles my jimmies quite considerably. Like a 2+ rerollable to a happy test.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Lucius might have been a contender for the best of the III Legion...but then Black Library decided he was best employed as someone to be fed to whichever loyalist character we're trying to play up in this book, with a result that he now comes off as a total chump who could be bested by Kyril Sindermann wielding a broom. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Raldoran is specifically noted as being one of the greatest warriors, getting noted in the same league as sigismund in one of the earlier stories. However, as of most recent stuff, azkaellon and amit are portrayed as being champions of the blood angels and roughly equals. So, we may see raldoran eventually get a portrayal of combat prowess worthy of how he was originally bigged up, setting him above the other two. But then again, we may not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calvin the wraithlord Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Lucius was defiantly the best in the EC that was pretty well emphasized i think Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Raldoran is specifically noted as being one of the greatest warriors, getting noted in the same league as sigismund in one of the earlier stories. However, as of most recent stuff, azkaellon and amit are portrayed as being champions of the blood angels and roughly equals. So, we may see raldoran eventually get a portrayal of combat prowess worthy of how he was originally bigged up, setting him above the other two. But then again, we may not. I think Raldoran is too humble to accept any form of duelist braggadocio that the other legions adopt. He's very much like his Primarch - a badass fighter, but would never hold it against someone else for comparison. I think Azkaellon is the best fighter in the IXth legion, and probably needs to be. Amit I see more as a brawler like Kargos, probably better and more at home at real war than fighting duels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171409 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Lucius beats Azkaellon, just when he does azkaellon turns it around by throwing them both off a cliff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Raldoron is mentioned in First Heretic when Sevatar is introduced, it says about how Sev is up there with Sigismund and Raldoron. I agree with Depthcharge, he's probably very humble about it. I dunno if he or Azkaellon would be more skilled. I don't think Amit is the same kind of fighter as the others. Like Depth says, more a brawler, not really a skilled swordsman in the same way as Azkaellon, Sigismund or Corswain. Not that that's anything against his prowess in battle, just that I don't think he's the legions number 1. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 The thing is that Amit and Aezkellon represent the extremes of their legion, Amit is all fury with no defense, while Aezkellon is the impenetrable defense with no fury. That is why Aezkellon is the master of the Sanguinary guard and charged with the defense of their father. Amit and his 8th Company are pretty much the most savage assault company the Blood Angels possess. Raldoron is the balance between the two, ferocious, skilled, cool-headed, calculating, and humble. He wears simple Mark IV armor with a bolt pistol and chainsword. You know someone is a freaking badass when he has the kit of a line sergeant, but is respected throughout the legions for his prowess as a fighter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Raldoron is also my favourite of the three (on what little we've seen of them), although I do like Amit and his Flesh Tearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raktra Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 I think for the Iron Hands it might be Autek Mor, mainly because it's already known that he's killed others of his rank in his own legion because ":cuss them". But I don't know enough about Meduson yet, and to be frank I'd rather it be him because he's :cussing nuts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 I fall on the side of preferring my legion commanders to be commanders. It makes more sense considering these men lead more than individual companies. Most of these guys conduct campaigns that would put all but the most devastating of 40K wars to shame, under their own personal generalship. By the time Raldoron or Sigismund actually take the feild, the war will be almost over. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 I think for the Iron Hands it might be Autek Mor, mainly because it's already known that he's killed others of his rank in his own legion because ":cuss them". But I don't know enough about Meduson yet, and to be frank I'd rather it be him because he's :cussing nuts. Bion Henricos might be a candidate - he beat Horus Aximand in single combat, partially due to his bionics giving him speed and strength remarkable even amongst Astartes. That said, Aximand then stabbed him in the back as he was fighting off some other SoH, so we won't get any other opportunities to view his martial prowess Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skalpynock Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 and to be frank I'd rather it be him because he's :cussing nuts. If I understand this "him" as meaning "Meduson", you're comparing him to Autek Mor. Whose levels of ":cussing nuts" is "Barging into a Medusan Leviathan, murdering everyone aboard, and then yelling "IT'S MINE" while putting your name on it" It's fitting that we can't answer this question regarding Iron Warriors: shows how little emphasis they put on the individual, and even when they do it's on prowess against whole armies or fleets, not dueling. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raktra Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 and to be frank I'd rather it be him because he's :cussing nuts. If I understand this "him" as meaning "Meduson", you're comparing him to Autek Mor. Whose levels of ":cussing nuts" is "Barging into a Medusan Leviathan, murdering everyone aboard, and then yelling "IT'S MINE" while putting your name on it" I'm still kinda holding "Horus is nearby, UNLEASH THE RAPTORS!" as a good contender. Mainly because I laughed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemisor Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 I'd say Amit for the Blood Angels. In the Lucius short story in Legacy's he starts listing of the best champions of the legions and specifically mentions Sig, Khârn and Amit in the same sentence. iirc Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted September 14, 2015 Author Share Posted September 14, 2015 I suppose a better question could have been " who is the best astartes In general". Being a great fighter means nothing on a large scale. They need to be able to lead, to strategize. Obviously ventanus gets my vote :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 I'd say Amit for the Blood Angels. In the Lucius short story in Legacy's he starts listing of the best champions of the legions and specifically mentions Sig, Khârn and Amit in the same sentence. iirc "His was a name spread across the Imperium, almost as notable as that of Abaddon of the Sons of Horus, Eidolon of the Emperor’s Children, Raldoron of the Blood Angels… or even the primarchs themselves. Argel Tal inclined his head in respect to Sevatar, First Captain of the Night Lords Legion." - Page 363, The First Heretic That seems like a pretty good recommendation for the best, coming from Argel Tal himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 So it's not just personal prowess but their overall warcraft? Ok then scratch off everyone who isn't a First Captain from the previously compiled lists since that position is pretty much the de facto recognition of being the greatest warrior/general/politician within a Legion. I use the word politician loosely since I can't think of any other that encompasses the the ability to plan out a campaign and reach compromise with the various interested parties from the fleet/Imperial Army/Mechanicum/Administratum etc. So by that reckoning you have: Corswain Jubal Khan/Qin Xa (neither has enough written to justify one way or the other but given one is the First Khan and the other the Primarch's right hand it stands to reason) Sigismund Sevatar Khârn Ok quick reasoning. Corswain is leading the bulk of the Dark Angels Legion out during the HH with the Lion stranded behind a Warp Storm that none but plot armoured Salamanders can vanquish. Sigismund is First Captain and master of Templars. Enough said. Sevatar and Khârn both make the list given that the increasing instability of their Primarchs forced them to do more of the leading than actual fighting although both were obviously good at that, even if they lacked the niceties to deal with the mortals in between the blood. Abaddon doesn't make it here. Reason being ok he's the First Captain of the most lauded Legion but how much of that has he done on his own back? Horus is noted as preferring to keep his Legion together where possible so leads the wider campaign personally, taking a lot off Abaddon's shoulders in the meantime. Yes we know in time he'll be Warmaster of Chaos, Bane of the Imperblahblahblah and so on but at this moment in time I'd say it puts him a step back. Of course on the flip side to that Horus' pride would never countenancing raising someone to his First Captaincy who wasn't going to maintain the golden reputation of his Legion so there's an argument for having him in all the same Oh and Ventanus is a long way down the list of Ultramarines let alone all the Legions. There's the Tetrarchs, the Chapter Masters then you have things like the highest ranking members of the Invictarii. A company captain is small time Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 I suppose a better question could have been " who is the best astartes In general". Being a great fighter means nothing on a large scale. They need to be able to lead, to strategize. Obviously ventanus gets my vote Much worse question as you made it even more general. At least in your current version you have to rate members against their Legion and their particular tactics; in your expanded version you have to weigh which tactics/strategy is "best" in addition to charisma, fighting ability, etc... Honestly the majority of Marines were just troopers in 30k; the epitome would probably just be a trooper who followed orders perfectly and killed efficiently; leadership isn't exactly necessary Interesting to note Sigi probably wouldnt make the list as his own primarch disowned him....can't exactly be the best of all when you get the boot Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 I think Sigismund being disowned reflects more on Dorn than on anything Sigismund did really. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Well it really shows how subjective "the best" means. His commander ordered him to do something, he came up with an excuse not to do it. The excuse was based off a religious civilians suggestion; not exactly a role model of following orders Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted September 14, 2015 Author Share Posted September 14, 2015 So it's not just personal prowess but their overall warcraft? Ok then scratch off everyone who isn't a First Captain from the previously compiled lists since that position is pretty much the de facto recognition of being the greatest warrior/general/politician within a Legion. I use the word politician loosely since I can't think of any other that encompasses the the ability to plan out a campaign and reach compromise with the various interested parties from the fleet/Imperial Army/Mechanicum/Administratum etc. So by that reckoning you have: Corswain Jubal Khan/Qin Xa (neither has enough written to justify one way or the other but given one is the First Khan and the other the Primarch's right hand it stands to reason) Sigismund Sevatar Khârn Ok quick reasoning. Corswain is leading the bulk of the Dark Angels Legion out during the HH with the Lion stranded behind a Warp Storm that none but plot armoured Salamanders can vanquish. Sigismund is First Captain and master of Templars. Enough said. Sevatar and Khârn both make the list given that the increasing instability of their Primarchs forced them to do more of the leading than actual fighting although both were obviously good at that, even if they lacked the niceties to deal with the mortals in between the blood. Abaddon doesn't make it here. Reason being ok he's the First Captain of the most lauded Legion but how much of that has he done on his own back? Horus is noted as preferring to keep his Legion together where possible so leads the wider campaign personally, taking a lot off Abaddon's shoulders in the meantime. Yes we know in time he'll be Warmaster of Chaos, Bane of the Imperblahblahblah and so on but at this moment in time I'd say it puts him a step back. Of course on the flip side to that Horus' pride would never countenancing raising someone to his First Captaincy who wasn't going to maintain the golden reputation of his Legion so there's an argument for having him in all the same B) Oh and Ventanus is a long way down the list of Ultramarines let alone all the Legions. There's the Tetrarchs, the Chapter Masters then you have things like the highest ranking members of the Invictarii. A company captain is small time :P Ventanus may be small but he is mighty! But yes tetrarchs would top any list really. Only reason ventanus stands out is for his duty on calth Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/2/#findComment-4171706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.