Tyrannicide Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Remus, this isn't meant to get on your case, but the thing about Ventanus is that he's a Line Captain out of roughly 200 plus others. He isn't the Ultramarines best _____ and he's nothing more than a commander. It's precisely what makes his story of being a relatively uncelebrated commander rising to the occasion so cool. He's the Savior of Calth. And with that said he shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Sigismund/Abaddon/Sevatar/& co.'s standing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4171707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Abaddon doesn't make it here. Reason being ok he's the First Captain of the most lauded Legion but how much of that has he done on his own back? Horus is noted as preferring to keep his Legion together where possible so leads the wider campaign personally, taking a lot off Abaddon's shoulders in the meantime. Yes we know in time he'll be Warmaster of Chaos, Bane of the Imperblahblahblah and so on but at this moment in time I'd say it puts him a step back. Of course on the flip side to that Horus' pride would never countenancing raising someone to his First Captaincy who wasn't going to maintain the golden reputation of his Legion so there's an argument for having him in all the same That is extremely unfair on Abaddon. He is the commander with the greatest number of victories second to Horus in the Legion that is the first among equals. He's renowned as a warrior and commander across the Legiones Astartes. Hell, even his description in Betrayal hints at his strategic prowess: Regardless of this, he echoed his commander in many ways, not least in his savage power as a fighter and skill as a tactician which gave him the greatest tally of victories in the Sons of Horus bar his Primarch. Ezekyle definitely isn't who he will become in 10,000 years time, but he remains one of the pre-eminent commanders in the Imperium. Misconceptions regarding his merit as a commander are largely based upon the depictions of him in BL fluff, where he just sits there raging at people. In Betrayal & Conquest he's shown to lead campaigns much more actively, operating as the field commander for Horus. Few Space Marines attract the consistent praise & reputation of Abaddon. He has definitely earned his position out of merit. I'm fine with not labelling him the best (he likely isn't), but your reasoning doesn't really hold up, it could be applied to literally anybody in the setting, & the Sons of Horus would conduct campaigns without the overview of Horus. Don't take it the wrong way, but I'm just pointing out that you can't really discount Abaddon for the same reason you can't discount others without specific evidence. Pure conjecture doesn't apply. You can't really compare people who have barely anything written on them to somebody who is well established as one of the greatest warriors & tacticians in the setting, even if he isn't at the heights he'll reach as Warmaster. There is no evidence anywhere indicating he didn't earn it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4171723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 That also just goes to show how subjective, arbitrary and more often than not meaningless it is to say someone is the best, because everything is context and circumstances. Sigismund survives a millennia after the Heresy, having fought an untold number champions and Dorn knows what else in the centuries since. Does that make him the best? Or does it just mean that he was good, albeit really, really good? Was there no one else who could oppose him, or is it just that those who could take him on and potentially win, didn't? And what were the circumstances surrounding those battles? Were they even duels? Could they even have been duels, in the middle of a war of such scale? What condition was Sigismund in, or his opponents? And what meaning does 'the best' have in-setting? Did Calth need Sigismund more than Ventanus, or was Ventanus better suited or better positioned to turn Calth around? Captain Pollux turned a battle around that was devised to kill Sigismund, does that make Sigismund less than Pollux? There is no such thing as being the best. There is only being good enough. No absolutes, just something that must be attained again and again, but never all the time. Sigismund was good enough of a duelist, of a killer of Space Marines, during this time, against those who stood before him, to be perceived as the best. But that does not make him the best. Among the best, sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4171731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 An unfortunate fact is that there really isn't a lot of fluff of marines commanding battles with phall being an exception. This is why comparing cross legion is pretty much just silly. We don't even know how the legion leaders got to their positions; everything is really speculation and just turns into the character you like the most. No defined metric (the best?), no information, no result Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4171735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Kage Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Tread carefully, brothers. I don't want this to get ugly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4171747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted September 14, 2015 Author Share Posted September 14, 2015 Remus, this isn't meant to get on your case, but the thing about Ventanus is that he's a Line Captain out of roughly 200 plus others. He isn't the Ultramarines best _____ and he's nothing more than a commander. It's precisely what makes his story of being a relatively uncelebrated commander rising to the occasion so cool. He's the Savior of Calth. And with that said he shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Sigismund/Abaddon/Sevatar/& co.'s standing.I know, i just have a.......thing for him lol. As I said the tetrarchs are the best of the legion by far Also, i dont want this to turn into people comparing astartes from different legions, but comparing astartes of the same legion, basing it off of what they have accomplished, and known fighting prowess Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4171773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Book four has Abaddon leading the Conquest of Manchea iirc. He defeats a crown jewel, breaks an Imperial Fist defense, and wipes out a Solar Auxilia contingent that had more men than all Imperial Forces at Armageddon. The guy is a beast. FW has shed the most light on commanders. Mor, Yonnad, Valen, and Dynat stand out as stars here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4171839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 An unfortunate fact is that there really isn't a lot of fluff of marines commanding battles with phall being an exception. This is why comparing cross legion is pretty much just silly. We don't even know how the legion leaders got to their positions; everything is really speculation and just turns into the character you like the most. No defined metric (the best?), no information, no result Yes and no. Some guys like Sevatar and Sigismund are widely regarded as lethal in the extreme, while in legions that have seen less page time, or don't have the martial culture to create a standout individual, are left with a grey area consisting of several possible candidates for the position of 'best fighter' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4171841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 An unfortunate fact is that there really isn't a lot of fluff of marines commanding battles with phall being an exception. This is why comparing cross legion is pretty much just silly. We don't even know how the legion leaders got to their positions; everything is really speculation and just turns into the character you like the most. No defined metric (the best?), no information, no result Yes and no. Some guys like Sevatar and Sigismund are widely regarded as lethal in the extreme, while in legions that have seen less page time, or don't have the martial culture to create a standout individual, are left with a grey area consisting of several possible candidates for the position of 'best fighter' See I was talking more about the expanded question of "who is the best Astates in general" where the OP said fighting wasn't the only skill and then everyone just went straight to the first captains. In that sense, all we have is some snippets of how deadly certain commanders are, which doesn't really represent why they deserve to be second in command of a legion I'd prefer to ask what character exemplifies their legion the most. This means that the metric is based on the individual legion practices, while still allowing for debate on what is more thematic in any legion; Sigi's zeal or Polux's masterful defense, Amit's uncontrolled fury or Azkellon's angelic intervention, Morturg's endurance or Typhon's mastery of chem warfare, Argel Tal's acceptance of the truth or Erebus' search for power, etc... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4171852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted September 15, 2015 Author Share Posted September 15, 2015 An unfortunate fact is that there really isn't a lot of fluff of marines commanding battles with phall being an exception. This is why comparing cross legion is pretty much just silly. We don't even know how the legion leaders got to their positions; everything is really speculation and just turns into the character you like the most. No defined metric (the best?), no information, no result Yes and no. Some guys like Sevatar and Sigismund are widely regarded as lethal in the extreme, while in legions that have seen less page time, or don't have the martial culture to create a standout individual, are left with a grey area consisting of several possible candidates for the position of 'best fighter' See I was talking more about the expanded question of "who is the best Astates in general" where the OP said fighting wasn't the only skill and then everyone just went straight to the first captains. In that sense, all we have is some snippets of how deadly certain commanders are, which doesn't really represent why they deserve to be second in command of a legion I'd prefer to ask what character exemplifies their legion the most. This means that the metric is based on the individual legion practices, while still allowing for debate on what is more thematic in any legion; Sigi's zeal or Polux's masterful defense, Amit's uncontrolled fury or Azkellon's angelic defense, Morturg's endurance or Typon's mastery of chem warfare, Argel Tal's acceptance of the truth or Erebus' search for power, etc... I actually like your revision of who represents their legion the best. Let's go with that :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4171857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leman Russ SW Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 I would say Amit has to be up there, in the short story he beats Khârn in a 1 on 1 dual which is pretty impressive. Also Luther has to be in the mix, he goes toe to toe with a primarch and is described as being a great leader of men with the likes of Abbadon etc. Not bad for only half a marine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4171999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 I would say Amit has to be up there, in the short story he beats Khârn in a 1 on 1 dual which is pretty impressive. Also Luther has to be in the mix, he goes toe to toe with a primarch and is described as being a great leader of men with the likes of Abbadon etc. Not bad for only half a marine. Khârn never wins in the pits... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4172003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leman Russ SW Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 This wasn't in the pits it was a straight up fight. Khârn wanted Amit to finish him but he stopped himself at the last minute. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4172023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 It's worth bearing in mind too that "best" is far too subjective to nail down in a case like this - it's not sports where whoever finishes top of the league after x games is the best. Plus you've got FW and BL who go out of their way (Sharrowkyn excepted) to present any examples of the "best" in a biased light. In much the same way that Legion Y thinks their Primarch is the best, it's an unreliable opinion. I'd be interested to see exemplars of the Legion though. Think there's a fair few that would be something of a surprise Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4172030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 I just want the Blood Angel book to come out and put the Amit/Aezkellon/Raldoron debate to rest. Like I love Amit as much as the next guy, but no one outside his legion even talks about him. Raldoron is the only name mentioned in other legion circles when it comes to talking about blood angel fighters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4172389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 I just want the Blood Angel book to come out and put the Amit/Aezkellon/Raldoron debate to rest. Like I love Amit as much as the next guy, but no one outside his legion even talks about him. Raldoron is the only name mentioned in other legion circles when it comes to talking about blood angel fighters. I agree. I love Amit, but I don't want him to get the special snowflake bat to the face. I don't him to become another Sharrowkyn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4172392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 How is Sharrowkyn more of a special Snow Flake than Sevatar? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4172404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 How is Sharrowkyn more of a special Snow Flake than Sevatar? Sevatar has flaws - real human flaws. He's also relatable as a character. But this is neither here nor there to discuss; I think we've talked about this in detail before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4172410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Lol last I checked Sevatar was rotting in prison aboard a 1st Legion ship. Fat chance of that ever happening to Sharrowkin. Just saying... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4172421 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted September 15, 2015 Author Share Posted September 15, 2015 Well all astartes have flaws. Being a gene forged warrior your bound to have personality flaws at the very least. But really, this is not to dscuss who has flaws and who doesnt.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4172427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Lol last I checked Sevatar was rotting in prison aboard a 1st Legion ship. Fat chance of that ever happening to Sharrowkin. Just saying... Exactly. Due to his hubris and need to stand by his Primarch regardless of good tactical sense, he only winds up killing no name 1st legionaries and getting the elite of his legion killed off or captured. Sharrowkyn would phase out of the cell block into space so that he can float up to the bridge and shoot the Primarch through the view screen. Only after defeating Corswain and Holguin in bladed combat ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4172439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 How is Sharrowkyn more of a special Snow Flake than Sevatar? Sevatar's big run in with a pre-existing big name character was him fighting to a draw and getting himself disqualified. Sharrowkyn runs into a Big Name Guy, makes him look like a chump who doesn't know which end of a sword to hold, then kills him, complete with a pithy-one liner to celebrate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4172443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Another good example of a commander commanding is Orfeo at Armatura, even if it is only referenced in passing. The guy leads a fighting withdrawl of a billion auxiliaries and thousands of legionaries, while bleeding two legions heavily. That is no small feat. Considering he is up against a Primarch who can literally hear fate singing to him and the Primarch who is famed for overwhelming the fiercest opponents in a sea of blades, Orfeo walks away a hero. Its like Leonidas at Thermopylae, except this time its the Spartans vs. the Spartans. Edit: Well... Orfeo doesn't walk away. But you get my meaning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4172446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 It could be worse. He could fulfill every Raven Guard trope and use dual Lightning Claws Definitely think Nex is the best representation of the Legion Another good Ultra commander strategizing is the one in the Anthony Reynolds HH piece where hes up against Sor Talgron and coordinates a phosphex bombing of the planet in the middle of a brawl Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4172447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Another good example of a commander commanding is Orfeo at Armatura, even if it is only referenced in passing. The guy leads a fighting withdrawl of a billion auxiliaries and thousands of legionaries, while bleeding two legions heavily. That is no small feat. Considering he is up against a Primarch who can literally hear fate singing to him and the Primarch who is famed for overwhelming the fiercest opponents in a sea of blades, Orfeo walks away a hero. Its like Leonidas at Thermopylae, except this time its the Spartans vs. the Spartans. Edit: Well... Orfeo doesn't walk away. But you get my meaning. Hell, he gave Khârn a good run for his money... But now he's 'armless :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/3/#findComment-4172448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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