depthcharge12 Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Even as a DA fan, I'd always thought that Sigismund would be the best fighter. However, I wouldn't mind have Corswain be a beast. I don't know how I'd feel about someone being better than Siggy, but if he was dang close in skill, I think that'd be great. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4176467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 I'm ok with it ;) Actually I'd like to see him close (like Sevatar) but with better command abilities to balance. Something like that anyway. On topic: Forrix for Iron Warriors? Again a lack of options and/or fluff but he seems to fit from what we've seen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4176474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob P Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Like Lucius, Qin Xa is described (in universe) as the best swordsman of his legion. I don't know how he fairs outside of sword fights (though the dao does seem to be the WS weapon of choice). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crizza Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Speaking of Lucius, there is also Sanakth of the Thousand Sons.Lucius defeated him, but I think it was only because he gave in to some Slaanesh stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkApostle7 Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 well Argel Tal is the only one of these who has killed a custodian, AND one of the best custodians at that, plus wings, plus he looks cool soo, yeh Argel wins everything Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crizza Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 And he's possessed :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted September 21, 2015 Author Share Posted September 21, 2015 Yeah, let's try and keep possessed marines out of this Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 As mentioned, being a first captain or main character doesn't automatically make someone one of the best fighters of their legion. For those legions I can recall definite contenders for: Dark Angels - Alajos (in Savage Weapons it says he is one of the best swordsmen in his legion, and he suspects there are fewer than 20 astartes that could best him) Emperor's Children - Lucius (for all his boasting, he is supposed to be an excellent swordsman) White Scars - Jubal Khan (mentioned by Alajos in the aforementioned Savage Weapons as one of the score he thinks could beat him, and shown in Templar duelling Sigismund), and Qin Xa. Imperial Fists - Sigismund (obviously) Night Lords - Sevatar Blood Angels - Could be any one of Raldoron, Amit or Azkaellon. The last two are shown in Virtues of the Sons to both be excellent, but each lacking in what the other excels at. Azkaellon better in defence, Amit in attack. Raldoron probably strikes a balance. World Eaters - Khârn, and Delvarus for his infamy in the pits Ultramarines - I'm sure at least one or two have been identified, but I can't remember who. I do recall Tillus Victorius from The Purge, Company Champion of the 171st, who had apparently never been beaten in a duel. Not sure how much that extended beyond his company though. Thousand Sons - Sanakht (seen in Lucius: The Eternal Blademaster as one of the best of his legion) Sons of Horus - Abaddon Word Bearers - Erebus (not mentioned often, but in Horus Rising he's shown keeping up with Lucius and the Mournival). I don't know if I'd put Argel Tal up here. He's not a bad fighter by any means, but I just got done re-reading The First Heretic, and setting aside the daemonic possession (which I don't think counts), I don't recall anything explicitly identifying him as an outstanding fighter. Raven Guard - Sharrowkyn (pains me to put it here, since he's become such a mary sue/creator's pet, but as he's portrayed he -is- one of the best) The rest I can't recall anyone specifically. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 If we're valuing just who's the best at fighting then it's unfair to discount argel tal's possession. The majority of his screen time is post possession so that's pretty much his character. Additionally we still give psykers their powers (thousand sons guy consciously used them in fights, sevetar did so unconsciously). Honestly I'd say kor pharon f best fighter a he took out guilliman solo, who was able to stall against lorgar and angron. For DA corswain is said to be better than alajos (said by alajos himself). For soh I'd actually say severian or loken; the rest of the mournival said Loken was the best with a blade and he beat garro and arguably Abe, while severian was turned into a ninja by McNeil sharrowkyn style. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 If we're valuing just who's the best at fighting then it's unfair to discount argel tal's possession. The majority of his screen time is post possession so that's pretty much his character. Additionally we still give psykers their powers (thousand sons guy consciously used them in fights, sevetar did so unconsciously). Honestly I'd say kor pharon f best fighter a he took out guilliman solo, who was able to stall against lorgar and angron. For DA corswain is said to be better than alajos (said by alajos himself). For soh I'd actually say severian or loken; the rest of the mournival said Loken was the best with a blade and he beat garro and arguably Abe, while severian was turned into a ninja by McNeil sharrowkyn style. Problem with that is its not the actual astartes. Kor phaeron only took down Guilliman due to his sith lord warp magic hacks, given to him by the gods. Without the gods he would be nothing. I do agree with loken. He bested lucius, garro, and would have killed abaddon if not for his :cussty chainsword.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Right, but we're considering sevetar and any 1k son, both of which use it to amp themselves past what regular astartes are capable of. If we're not counting external factors then how are the nails considered (as they're boosting the marine past their original point)? Possession? Stimms? Augmetics? If we're going with something like that then I'd say khan Khârn is out for the XIITH an Lhorke is in; non nailed, teacher of Khârn, respected by all Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 Posession is direct interference from higher beings. The thousand sons were born with thier gifts.(albeit still warp sheit) They have mastered them. I just think anything given from the gods are....a tad too far. So the nails really make you a better fighter? I thought they only made you really really mad. And as LOKEN said, a mad swordsman is a dead one. Kharrn for sure has extreme skill. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I love how Loken and Abaddon's fight has changed from Loken charging Abaddon, then realizing Abaddon is still just as fast in his armor and reciving a kick in the face and a power fist to the chest and only getting a single hit in because by random chance a building collapsed on Abaddon, to Loken only losing by Abaddon getting lucky. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I used the Thousand Sons as an example of why kor should be in contention. AFAIK in 40k you can't suddenly be a psyker even through tzeentch; you could have repressed talent that was expanded on through gifts, or they found some dark lore to expand their knowledge, but he had to have ha some sort of ability. Basically kor was one of the first sorcerers (he used chaos to boost his existing power). The sons are actually another good example of sorcerers as they tried to find new knowledge of the warp to get stronger. Possessed would fall into t category of external boosts like stimms, Fabius-ing, bionics and the nails. And yes, the nails make them better fighters, like Viking beserkers; boosting aggression and inhibiting pain. This turns them into horrible soldiers though, as shown in almost all of betrayer. Speaking of, the last fight on nuceria Khârn is taken and AT can barely keep up with his rage induced slaying. Even by being the best possessed Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Double post because I can't use the edit function (on phone). Lokens one hit almost killed abe by going through his hearts. With a chainsword. Against terminator armour. After having fought the human traitors and then being sieged by marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 If Abaddon was the best fighter, why did he, and the others vote for Loken to fight Lucius? Abaddon might have been the best Captain but not the best fighter. If you take Loken post Istvaan, AKA Cerberus, then its not even close. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I used the Thousand Sons as an example of why kor should be in contention. AFAIK in 40k you can't suddenly be a psyker even through tzeentch; you could have repressed talent that was expanded on through gifts, or they found some dark lore to expand their knowledge, but he had to have ha some sort of ability. Basically kor was one of the first sorcerers (he used chaos to boost his existing power). The sons are actually another good example of sorcerers as they tried to find new knowledge of the warp to get stronger. Possessed would fall into t category of external boosts like stimms, Fabius-ing, bionics and the nails. And yes, the nails make them better fighters, like Viking beserkers; boosting aggression and inhibiting pain. This turns them into horrible soldiers though, as shown in almost all of betrayer. Speaking of, the last fight on nuceria Khârn is taken and AT can barely keep up with his rage induced slaying. Even by being the best possessed You know, (puts on nerd hat) there weren't actually such things as Viking Berzerkers? They were just a mythos created by drama? I could even link you to a credible source...but hey :P I think for these comparisons, it's still fair to include a user's natural talent, and that includes any power that they are born with (therefore Kor Phaeron is discounted, but Sevatar and TS blade master can stay). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 Fair point on the TS. As for the nails, it may make them stronger but also wreckless. We see countless WE slaughtered due to them. I think it could be both a good and bad thing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Alright, legion master Lhorke for the XIITH for sure then. Thousand sons are still impossible to rate as they used the sorcerer style of improving their powers, plus tzeentchs meddling, so natural state of their power is too uncertain. And that's literally the first I've heard someone say Norse/viking beserkers never existed Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Alright, legion master Lhorke for the XIITH for sure then. Thousand sons are still impossible to rate as they used the sorcerer style of improving their powers, plus tzeentchs meddling, so natural state of their power is too uncertain. And that's literally the first I've heard someone say Norse/viking beserkers never existed Yeah my mind was blown too :P Berzerkers were actually just guys that wore bear shirts and usually held a notable position such as a Thane or bodyguard. There are Norse stories of one guy who started howling and biting his shield like he was crazy and his opponent just walked up to him and kicked him right in the crotch. I'm not even joking. But that doesn't mean it can't exist in our minds as fiction - like knights going and slaying foul beasts rather than selling their swords to the highest bidder and doing pretty morally repugnant things :D I wouldn't even say though that psyker powers automatically make one more powerful than any duelist out there. Like I don't think a random psychic sergeant would be able to KO Siggy. We get extreme examples like Phosis T'kar that could've killed Valdor, but he turns into a mutant and realizes that he is lost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I don't think the TS can really be quantified in a fight with other Astartes. Skill isn't as important when you know your enemy's movements before he makes them. Or you know just take the easy way out with a psychic neck snap. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I'm surprised no one mentioned Cypher for the dark angels he's pretty much the best mortriat Imo but he sees little action. I believe he'd be a contender Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Well yea, those poems are the source for beserkers, but they also include the very angry aspects we traditionally associate with the word. The shield biting line comes from a bit that also says how impervious they were and strong (in addition to being crazy). On topic: I wouldn't say psychic ability means a good fighter either, except when it's proven to enhance their fighting ability. Thousand son duelist, phosis, kor and sevetar are all examples of this. I really meant it's hard to compare natural ability when we're only given their power after its been boosted. I'd prolly go with phosis though as his kine shield tanked the eldar D, so normal combat should be easy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 What about the best shot? Being a duelest is great, but if you cant make it to your enemy....I guess cypher would qualify for this Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Yea I think the misconception is "most destructive" vs "most efficient at killing in close combat". Also we were ranking them against their legion to keep things honest, so it's not too much of a concern. Even then, in a thousand sons there's a concern that their powers are a crutch and their marineyness is lacking. Depths' satirical rhetoric aside, we can see that pure skill>psyker + skill when Lucy takes on the TS blade master who, you know, read his moves...As for shooting I'm going going have to b the bullet and say sharrowkyn, McNeil went too ham on the character other than that maybe exodus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/6/#findComment-4177934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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