b1soul Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 When I read Savage Weapons, I got the impression that Astelan was no. 1 in the first legion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4177943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 When I read Savage Weapons, I got the impression that Astelan was no. 1 in the first legion Hmm I thought so too, either he or Corswain are the best, though I have a feeling like Astelan will be the sleeper hitter. However, it'll be sad as we'll not likely see him in combat ;.( (We need more good 1st legion stories dangnabbit!!!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4177946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I don't think the TS can really be quantified in a fight with other Astartes. Skill isn't as important when you know your enemy's movements before he makes them. Or you know just take the easy way out with a psychic neck snap. So then this solves this whole thread :P Case closed guys, all of your legions mean nothing compared to psykers. Just like when Leman Russ, a non psychic, killed Magnus, or when the Lion put Curze and his predictive foresight under, or when Alajos kept neck and neck with Sevatar and Sheng long enough to allow Corswain to do his duty, Or or or... ;) What about the best shot? Being a duelest is great, but if you cant make it to your enemy....I guess cypher would qualify for this He's got aimbot hacks... All of the Primarchs are psychic, Warp-infused beings...on top of that, Russ had some sort of anti-psyker aura + howl going on...on top of that, there was a whole contingent of Sisters of Silence running around Russ vs. Magnus isn't like random librarian vs. random non-psychic marine Sevatar is a latent psyker...he has some limited precog + speed boost to enhance his already formidable skills. His precog is nowhere near as developed as that of a TSon who specialises at precog Better examples would be... 1. ATS: SW charge TSons on Shrike...end up spasming on the floor 2. Rebirth: Arvida beats a WE who is clearly stronger, faster, otherwise better at close combat...because Arvida knows the WE's moves in advance 3. Scars: Yesugai incapacitates several Shattered Legion marines who attack him Psychic powers are a massive advantage in 40K/30K There is no need to downplay them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4177984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I'll ask again how the tson duelist lost to Lucy since he was so skilled and based his fighting off of being able to read his opponents moves? I firmly believe that psykers who actively enhance their cqc with their power get a huge power boost, but that advantage really falls short if they're adapting their technique to work in a combat scenario. To address your points: 1. they're mid charge and then get dropped by magic, almost like a shooting attack, which just demonstrates that charges suck against range because you have to close the distance 2. Arvida dies. He tries to pick apart kharns brain while he's getting his face punched in, instead of brute force. 3. Earlier you made a comment about Magnus and Russia not being like a librarian vs. Normal guys. Now you're trying to make a point by having a chief librarian take out a few guys. Kor is the best example of a psyker who just boosted himself up to be able to fight some of the big shots and I'm sure some of the WE librarians would have been crazy too as they're melee focused, as is tsons blade master (who still dies to a non psyker) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I'm surprised no one mentioned Cypher for the dark angels he's pretty much the best mortriat Imo but he sees little action. I believe he'd be a contender Too much ambiguity with him. The 30k Lord Cypher hasn't done anything and may not even be the 40k Cypher . ;) 40k Cypher is a great shot, 30k Cypher hasnt fired one and is so mysterious he's probably Alpharius. Actually the same reason I wouldn't pick Lucius. He's great in 40k but I think he's got a long way to go to get there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I'll ask again how the tson duelist lost to Lucy since he was so skilled and based his fighting off of being able to read his opponents moves? Haven't read that story...but massive advantage does not mean guaranteed win. Maybe Lucy is just that good. Perhaps, without precog, the TSon would've been way below Lucy's league. Could you imagine two equally skilled duelists...but one has precog and one does not. That's what you call an advantage 1. they're mid charge and then get dropped by magic, almost like a shooting attack, which just demonstrates that charges suck against range because you have to close the distance I don't think you know the meaning of an advantage...both sides had blades, both sides had guns...only one side had psychic powers So if neither side had guns, only the TSons would have a (very effective) ranged attack...that's what you would call an advantage. 2. Arvida dies. He tries to pick apart kharns brain while he's getting his face punched in, instead of brute force. So that means psychic powers are not an advantage...how? By the way, Arvida does not die...please re-read. You are thinking of another TSon Anywsy, psychic powers aren't an insta-win button, especially when you are a telepath and your target is completely insane. They are however a big advantage. 3. Earlier you made a comment about Magnus and Russia not being like a librarian vs. Normal guys I wouldn't assume those Shattered Legion survivors were merely "normal"...but it doesn't make much of a difference. A random librarian would have a lot of advantages over a random non-psychic marine...the odds would be stacked in favor of the librarian, which is not to say the non-psychic marine has zero chance of winning. Again, I think you're failing to grasp the difference between a massive advantage, which psychic powers most certainly are, and an "I Win" button, which psychic powers most certainly aren't Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Given Alajos acknowledged himself that Astellan and Corswain were likely to beat him and also the fact that Corswain's name has been dropped a few times in direct reference to Sigismund, Sevatar, Abaddon et all I don't think there's any issue in saying he's the top boy in the I Legion. On the subject of Sanakht, in John French's Ahriman series, Ahriman himself makes the observation that Sanakht was pretty much the pre-eminent blademaster in the XV Legion, even after Khayon stripped his powers from him, he's still the best with a blade. But then to be completely objective you've got Ahriman who could see predict the future, Uthizaar who could see his enemies actions before they made it. Phosis T'Kar who could pull them apart, Kalophis who could burn them and Hathor Maat who could dissolve their bodies at a cellular level. Of course psychic powers make a massive difference. It's stupid to claim otherwise. But since the vast majority of the "best" aren't psychic in the slightest it's a safe assumption that we're going purely on martial skill. And before anyone brings up Sevatar, he spent decades suppressing his powers not employing them and still got renowned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Given Alajos acknowledged himself that Astellan and Corswain were likely to beat him and also the fact that Corswain's name has been dropped a few times in direct reference to Sigismund, Sevatar, Abaddon et all I don't think there's any issue in saying he's the top boy in the I Legion. On the subject of Sanakht, in John French's Ahriman series, Ahriman himself makes the observation that Sanakht was pretty much the pre-eminent blademaster in the XV Legion, even after Khayon stripped his powers from him, he's still the best with a blade. But then to be completely objective you've got Ahriman who could see predict the future, Uthizaar who could see his enemies actions before they made it. Phosis T'Kar who could pull them apart, Kalophis who could burn them and Hathor Maat who could dissolve their bodies at a cellular level. Of course psychic powers make a massive difference. It's stupid to claim otherwise. But since the vast majority of the "best" aren't psychic in the slightest it's a safe assumption that we're going purely on martial skill. And before anyone brings up Sevatar, he spent decades suppressing his powers not employing them and still got renowned. You do realise that Sevatar uses his powers in combat...his usage is just more limited compared to that of a TSon because he suppresses his abilities By the way, does Sanakt even use his precog when he fights Lucius? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Given Alajos acknowledged himself that Astellan and Corswain were likely to beat him and also the fact that Corswain's name has been dropped a few times in direct reference to Sigismund, Sevatar, Abaddon et all I don't think there's any issue in saying he's the top boy in the I Legion. On the subject of Sanakht, in John French's Ahriman series, Ahriman himself makes the observation that Sanakht was pretty much the pre-eminent blademaster in the XV Legion, even after Khayon stripped his powers from him, he's still the best with a blade. But then to be completely objective you've got Ahriman who could see predict the future, Uthizaar who could see his enemies actions before they made it. Phosis T'Kar who could pull them apart, Kalophis who could burn them and Hathor Maat who could dissolve their bodies at a cellular level. Of course psychic powers make a massive difference. It's stupid to claim otherwise. But since the vast majority of the "best" aren't psychic in the slightest it's a safe assumption that we're going purely on martial skill. And before anyone brings up Sevatar, he spent decades suppressing his powers not employing them and still got renowned. You do realise that Sevatar uses his powers in combat...his usage is just more limited compared to that of a TSon because he suppresses his abilities By the way, does Sanakt even use his precog when he fights Lucius? Of course Sev uses them, but it's hardly the same as a well versed practitioner from the Thousand Sons throwing lightning and fire whilst using shields of psychic force to turn aside blows. As for Sanakht, I'd be amazed if he didn't. As in most of the BL material and elsewhere, using psychic powers becomes second nature. I wouldn't go so far as to say they're a crutch but it's not like you can turn off a tap for something like that. Manifestation powers sure, but knowing where the next blow is coming from? Subtly altering the angle of a sword stroke to allow for a parry and counter blow? I'd imagine at the higher echelons of training it becomes almost like muscle memory Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 2. Arvida dies. He tries to pick apart kharns brain while he's getting his face punched in, instead of brute force. 3. You got this wrong. That is the Other 1k son in the story. Arvida is in Scars and a limited short story released at a game day. I think Arvida becomes a Greyknight Grandmaster.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1000 Sons Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Can we all just agree that Ahriman would destroy everyone ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 Except for Aeonid thiel ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Can we all just agree that Ahriman would destroy everyone ?:D Kharne blessed by Khorne might be a problem Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I'm surprised no one mentioned Cypher for the dark angels he's pretty much the best mortriat Imo but he sees little action. I believe he'd be a contender Too much ambiguity with him. The 30k Lord Cypher hasn't done anything and may not even be the 40k Cypher . 40k Cypher is a great shot, 30k Cypher hasnt fired one and is so mysterious he's probably Alpharius. Actually the same reason I wouldn't pick Lucius. He's great in 40k but I think he's got a long way to go to get there. I reckon the 40k cypher turns out to be Zahariel that Librarian the first book focuses on and the reason he disappears so easily is because he hides his physic powers and knows a warp gate type of power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Without derailing too much I think your right but he still doesn't make top of the legion for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I think Siggy's ZEAL is a psychic power on its own :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Woops, was a while since I read the story and got guys confused . The guy who died to Khârn was arvida's captain so it kind of just furthers my point that combat enhancing powers are what gives an edge, not just having psychic powers giving you a trump over everything. I don't think you know the meaning of an advantage...both sides had blades, both sides had guns...only one side had psychic powersSo if neither side had guns, only the TSons would have a (very effective) ranged attack...that's what you would call an advantage. The thousand sons used their powers instead of shooting, while the space wolves were charging them (not shooting). If it were a firefight and the sons used their powers to break the deadlock then I'd see your point Anywsy, psychic powers aren't an insta-win button What I've been saying the entire time lol. More on topic. I think Ahriman post access to all the cult powers would be best for the sons, but before that I'd give it to Phosis or Athrava (as adeptus exemplus and having access to all the disciplines). For DA best fighter may go to Luther too, as he's able to keep up with the Lion in performance while they were both on Caliban. Then again, he does get roided up on sorcery Kor Phaeron style :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Woops, was a while since I read the story and got guys confused . The guy who died to Khârn was arvida's captain so it kind of just furthers my point that combat enhancing powers are what gives an edge, not just having psychic powers giving you a trump over everything. I don't think you know the meaning of an advantage...both sides had blades, both sides had guns...only one side had psychic powersSo if neither side had guns, only the TSons would have a (very effective) ranged attack...that's what you would call an advantage. The thousand sons used their powers instead of shooting, while the space wolves were charging them (not shooting). If it were a firefight and the sons used their powers to break the deadlock then I'd see your point Anywsy, psychic powers aren't an insta-win button What I've been saying the entire time lol. More on topic. I think Ahriman post access to all the cult powers would be best for the sons, but before that I'd give it to Phosis or Athrava (as adeptus exemplus and having access to all the disciplines). For DA best fighter may go to Luther too, as he's able to keep up with the Lion in performance while they were both on Caliban. Then again, he does get roided up on sorcery Kor Phaeron style :P To use another gaming analogue - he paid to win :P I can imagine there might have been another even better duelist than Siggy, but they might've gotten nuked in some fight as a line trooper. You also have to credit these fighters for being lucky. Luck is a hard variable to calculate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Oh brother, Lucius vs Sanakht...where the favored champion of Slaanesh can only defeat his opponent by going into a Khornate rage. TAKE MCNEIL'S KEYBOARD AWAY! TAKE IT AWAY BEFORE HE WRITES ANOTHER LUCIUS STORY! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Oh brother, Lucius vs Sanakht...where the favored champion of Slaanesh can only defeat his opponent by going into a Khornate rage. TAKE MCNEIL'S KEYBOARD AWAY! TAKE IT AWAY BEFORE HE WRITES ANOTHER LUCIUS STORY! Ssh now is ok, he will hurts you no longer. It's Mr thorpes turn now "How dare you be polite to me word bearer, corax smash!" "How dare you tell me what the emperor decreed, lion o smash!" (Might be the other book but they all sit in on the meetings) What about the world eater dude in furious abyss? That guy wrecked face for a bit, just got a bit knackered at the end there Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Oh brother, Lucius vs Sanakht...where the favored champion of Slaanesh can only defeat his opponent by going into a Khornate rage. TAKE MCNEIL'S KEYBOARD AWAY! TAKE IT AWAY BEFORE HE WRITES ANOTHER LUCIUS STORY! We should start the CAMEL: Comittee Against McNeill Excoriating Lucius :P It's the anti Lucius defamation league. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 He just gets the :cuss beaten out of him over and over and over again lucius why you be hating why you mad bro. He is the ultimate troll Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 Lucius's fight song Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I thought I read McNeil is no longer writing for Black Library any more, or is that someone else? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 I thought I read McNeil is no longer writing for Black Library any more, or is that someone else? Mcniell is writing for a game studio in 'Merica. I think he is still doing a small amount of BL Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313619-the-best-of-each-legion/page/7/#findComment-4178603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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