Thunder Warrior Rules for use in the Age of Darkness

[Fenbain]

I wanted to create some rules for using Thunder Warriors in games of Horus Heresy, as I am currently in the process of converting a squad. Though they are wiped out by the time of the Horus Heresy, I believe there was a small overlap where the first legions fought alongside the remaining Thunder Warriors that the Emperor created on Terra during the Unification Wars. They may also be very limited numbers of Thunder Warriors who survived their extermination. I considered putting this in homebrew rules, but I thought putting it here would get better exposure and allow them to be better balanced for the Horus Heresy game.

So far I have drafted this.

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35 points per model 3-10 per unit

WS BS S T W I A LD SV

5 3 5 5 2 4 3 7 3+

Equipment: Proto-power armour, Close combat weapon.

Special Rules: Feel no pain (5+), Stubborn, Rending, Hammer of Wrath, Adamantium Will, Unstable Creation.

Unstable Creation - Though stronger and larger than the Space Marines who came after, an unfortunate effect of their hastily designed genetic structure was being prone to mental instability. Thunder Warriors may never be scoring, but can still deny objectives. If a unit of Thunder Warriors fails a morale or pinning test then all models in the unit suffer a wound with no armour save allowed.

Proto-power armour - Powered suits developed from the combat armour of the techno-barbarians on Terra, this armour was not fully enclosed and only the torso was powered. When a unit of Thunder Warriors is struck by a template or blast weapon, those weapons count as being +1AP during the resolution of the shooting phase.

Options

1 in 3 Thunder Warriors may also take a:

- Flamer for 10 points

- Pneumatic Gauntlet for 15 points



Any thoughts, feedback, ideas or modhammer condemning this to the homebrew rules?

[marine7312000]

I think they need a base ranged weapon as well. I'd suggest an autogun as a prototype of bolters.

[Charlo]

Had no idea they were stronger than Astartes. Cool stuff. Lexicanum even says they could take on Custodes...

 

I'd knock them down to 2 attacks Base.

 

Maybe have two variants too, one bred for shooting and one for combat. I'd imagine the guns they use would be crude but powerful. Think beefy proto shotgun style bolters, S5 AP5 Assault 2 18"

[Teetengee]

maybe something like ripper guns?
also, I would word the AP bonus better as +1AP isn't necessarily a good thing. (Improved by 1 point is probably appropriate)

[b1soul]

Bigger, stronger, tougher

 

Prone to violent insanity...which might mean they become feral, frothing maniacs more of a liability than an asset on the battlefield, e.g. they might end up killing each other, non-TW allies, and the enemy.

 

Short life-spans, perhaps intentionally designed that way as a solution to terminate their insanity at an early stage

 

Relative to marines, I think WS and BS should be lower. They're brutes, not skilled blademasters/marksmen

 

Maybe special rules to reflect their mental instability, which would be their greatest weakness. Think World Eaters buzzed on nails, but perhaps even less lucid

[Caillum]

From the few mentions they've had in the HH series, I think you're pretty close to the mark there Fenbain. They are definitely mentioned as wielding massive bolters, so maybe a Salvo 2/3 heavy bolter could work?

 

All the special rules you put in are good, but I'd remove the second part of the Unstable Creation - non-scoring is fine. I'd also be tempted to upgrade Stubborn to Fearless, with an appropriate price increase.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

That stat line looks more like an Ogryn, and I feel certain that Thunder Warriors would put them to shame. I also think they would have at the minimum the same WS and BS as a marine. I'm thinking something more like this:

 

WS  BS  S  T  W  I  A  LD

  5    4   7  6   3  4  3  9

 

They were monsters. The Big E made them as a stop-gap measure to conquer Terra in a hurry, while he was working on the Astartes, and built them according to the task at hand. Their reported exploits even made an astartes balk at the idea of them being true. 

[Fenbain]

My reasoning behind the unit having no ranged weapons was that it was supposedly very difficult to manufacture them during the Unification Wars. Maybe add an option to give the whole unit ranged weapons at a hefty points increase and change their unit selection to 1 per 1000 points in the army? The options could be the rare proto-bolters in use on Terra and normal bolters/combi-bolters to represent the Thunder Warriors fighting alongside the legions and after their extermination?

 

As for the statline, it's obvious it needs a buff so I'll get to work on that. I am hesitant to buff them too much as in the fluff one Thunder Warrior could take down 3 to 4 Space Marines in combat. So while they need to be stronger I don't think they should be too ridiculous.

 

Do you think Rending is an appropriate USR for them to have or should I find another way to represent their monstrous attacks and ferocity?

 

Thanks for all the feedback guys :-)

[Teetengee]

Rage seems appropriate, as does shred.

[depthcharge12]

Well I think a good place to base their statline is how many astartes does it take to kill one thunder warrior?

 

I'd say it takes 3-4 considering that's what the WE fluff and Outcast dead give us.

 

I personally would go with:

 

115 points

Squad size: 3

 

WS5 BS4 S5 T5 W2 A2 I5 LD9 SV4+

 

Special rules:

•Furious Charge

•Rage

•FNP (5+)

•Stubborn

•Genetic instability*

 

Wargear:

•Terran auto gun

•Heavy Chainblade

•Frag grenades

•Proto power armor**

 

Terran auto gun:

Range: 18" S4 AP6 assault 2

 

Heavy Chainblade:

Melee S+2 AP5

 

**Proto power armor

This first generation of power armor offered one of the best forms of protection during the reunification, but was still inferior to later forms. This confers a 4+ armor save that may be rerolled if failed.

 

*Genetic instability

At the start of the Thunder Warrior's turn, each unit with this rule must make a leadership check. If they fail, then the unit suffers d3 wounds with no armor saves allowed (feel no pain may still be taken).

 

Also, units with this rule must always try to sweeping advance and must consolidate towards the closest enemy unit they can harm if they win an assault.

 

-Unit may add 7 more thunder warriors........+35 ppm

 

-Unit may swap Terran auto guns for bolters.......+2 ppm

 

-Unit may take 1 special weapon for every 3 models in squad

•Rotor cannon.....+5 ppm

•Flamer......+5 ppm

•Missile launcher.....+10 ppm

[Teetengee]

I would make the switch to bolters free, since in most cases the terran autoguns will be better due to 18" and assault 2.
The first part of Genetic Instability seems to be more dice rolling than is really necessary, particularly since it won't come up often.

A 4+ rerollable armour save (25% fail rate) is superior to a 3+ armour save (33% fail rate) except against AP4 weaponry. (which isn't terribly common as far as I can tell).
That in addition to fnp and 2 wounds makes them much hardier against most weapons.
A 3+ armour save that cannot be taken against AP4 weaponry would perhaps be better.

Also, I will return with some math on these guys vs meqs at range and in cc in a bit.

[depthcharge12]

I would make the switch to bolters free, since in most cases the terran autoguns will be better due to 18" and assault 2.

The first part of Genetic Instability seems to be more dice rolling than is really necessary, particularly since it won't come up often.

 

A 4+ rerollable armour save (25% fail rate) is superior to a 3+ armour save (33% fail rate) except against AP4 weaponry. (which isn't terribly common as far as I can tell).

That in addition to fnp and 2 wounds makes them much hardier against most weapons.

A 3+ armour save that cannot be taken against AP4 weaponry would perhaps be better.

 

Also, I will return with some math on these guys vs meqs at range and in cc in a bit.

My thinking was that there was a larger prevalence of AP4 weaponry. Auto cannons, power mauls, etc to add to the AP3 list. I wouldnt quite qualify Proto and actual power armor to be the same level of protection though. It's supposed to function similiar to void hardened armor that breachers get - they only get rerolls against blast weapons however.

[apologist]

While a cool idea, I'd suggest reining the stats in quite a bit. It's always difficult to translate background (particularly vague hints like those about Thunder Warriors) into gaming rules, but generally, it's best to err on the side of caution. 

 

In particular, I think the statline is too high almost across the board. If you're basing the stats on what we read in The Outcast Dead, then it should be borne in mind:

1) The Thunder Warriors in the book are particularly exceptional.

2) The descriptions are generally in-character assessments.

3) Narrative bias for the sake of drama.

 

The third is perhaps the best reason to tone things down for the game. Almost everything that the author wants to look cool or especially threatening will be 'hyped up' – look at how Space Marines in the background compare to in the game.

 

While one-on-one Thunder Warriors are more dangerous than a Space Marine, I don't think that justifies their statlines being closer to a Primarch than an Astartes. Generally, I think their superiority would be best displayed through additional rules than simple higher stats.

 

I'd go for:

WS3 BS3 S4 T4 W2 A2 I4 LD7 SV3+

Special rules: fearless, fear, it will not die, hatred, relentless

 

Weapons would be standard boltguns or volkites, and their armour standard power armour. I know they're commonplace to us, but these technologies were the pinnacle of technology on barbaric Terra; and specifically developed for the Emperor's legions.

 

The physical stats are enough to beat an Astartes most (but not all) of the time, and while the combat stats are not as honed as Astartes, their special rules mean they'll probably still come out on top.

 

Importantly, I think these stats give Astartes a fighting chance, even if the odds are against them. On a macro-scale (i.e. within an army), the Astartes should win out, given their additional flexibility and ability to overcome the Thunder Warriors' major advantages – brute strength and causing fear. I think that's pretty much in line with the background.

[Fenbain]

New draft taking into consideration the feedback so far

==============

130 points
Unit Size: 3

WS5 BS3 S6 T5 W2 I4 A3 LD9 SV3+

Equipment: Proto-power armour*, Close combat weapon, Frag Grenades

Special Rules: Feel no pain (5+), Stubborn, Rending, Adamantium Will, Unstable Creation**.

*Proto-power armour - Powered suits developed from the combat armour of the techno-barbarians on Terra, this armour was not fully enclosed and only the torso was powered. When a unit of Thunder Warriors is struck by a template or blast weapon, those weapons have their AP improved by 1 during the resolution of the shooting phase.

**Unstable Creation - Though stronger and larger than the Space Marines who came after, an unfortunate effect of their hastily designed genetic structure was being prone to mental instability. Thunder Warriors may never be scoring, but can still deny objectives. They must always attempt to sweeping advance and must consolidate towards the nearest enemy unit upon winning an assault. If a unit of Thunder Warriors fails a morale or pinning test then all models in the unit suffer a wound with no armour save allowed, though their Feel No Pain save may still be taken. They are also subject to the following Universal Special Rules: Hammer of Wrath, Furious Charge, Rage.

Options

Unit may take up to an additional 7 Thunder Warriors: +40 points per Thunder Warrior

The entire unit may add a ranged weapon to their equipment:

- for 2 points per model, every model in the unit may be equipped with a Bolter.
- for 7 points per model, every model in the unit may be equipped with a Terran Proto-Bolter.

One in three Thunder Warriors may also take:

- Pneumatic Gauntlet for 15 points
- Flamer for 10 points

Terran Proto-Bolter: S5 AP5 Range 24 Assault 3, Gets Hot!, Two-handed (reduce Attack characteristic by 1)

Pneumatic Gauntlet: S User +2 AP3 Range Melee Strikedown, Concussive

===============

I don't believe that Thunder Warriors would be BS4 as not only would they rarely train with ranged weapons (limited ammunition etc.) but they also don't have the intergrated auto-senses Space Marines do. Increased the Strength to 6, to include the strength of the Thunder Warrior combined with the powered torso of the Proto-power armour. Left the toughness at 5 so they can still be insta-killed vs Strength 10 (thoughts?).

I wanted the ranged weapons to be an extra as I don't believe this would have been the standard armament of the Thunder Warriors. They would probably wield the Bolter more like a pistol due to their size and strength. The Proto-Bolters force a trade-off in melee effectiveness due to their size and weight.

The Unstable Creation rule combines the ferocity, anger and instability of the Thunder Warriors, though I am worried it is far too wordy. Finally the Proto-Power armour is meant to be effective against projectile weapons but less so against explosions and gas/fire, due to the unsealed and sometimes exposed nature of it.

Is that closer to everyone's idea of them?

Edit: Hadn't seen your reply at the time of posting this Apologist

[Teetengee]

While a cool idea, I'd suggest reining the stats in quite a bit. It's always difficult to translate background (particularly vague hints like those about Thunder Warriors) into gaming rules, but generally, it's best to err on the side of caution. 

 

In particular, I think the statline is too high almost across the board. If you're basing the stats on what we read in The Outcast Dead, then it should be borne in mind:

1) The Thunder Warriors in the book are particularly exceptional.

2) The descriptions are generally in-character assessments.

3) Narrative bias for the sake of drama.

 

The third is perhaps the best reason to tone things down for the game. Almost everything that the author wants to look cool or especially threatening will be 'hyped up' – look at how Space Marines in the background compare to in the game.

 

While one-on-one Thunder Warriors are more dangerous than a Space Marine, I don't think that justifies their statlines being closer to a Primarch than an Astartes. Generally, I think their superiority would be best displayed through additional rules than simple higher stats.

 

I'd go for:

WS3 BS3 S4 T4 W2 A2 I4 LD7 SV3+

Special rules: fearless, fear, it will not die, hatred, relentless

 

Weapons would be standard boltguns or volkites, and their armour standard power armour. I know they're commonplace to us, but these technologies were the pinnacle of technology on barbaric Terra; and specifically developed for the Emperor's legions.

 

The physical stats are enough to beat an Astartes most (but not all) of the time, and while the combat stats are not as honed as Astartes, their special rules mean they'll probably still come out on top.

 

Importantly, I think these stats give Astartes a fighting chance, even if the odds are against them. On a macro-scale (i.e. within an army), the Astartes should win out, given their additional flexibility and ability to overcome the Thunder Warriors' major advantages – brute strength and causing fear. I think that's pretty much in line with the background.

I think these would be fair, but I would also add rage to represent their instability. Maybe a forced charge if possible rule.

Price them around 30-35 ppm?

[DuskRaider]

I'd personally make them better than a normal Astartes. In the lore it takes multiple Marines to take down a single Thunder Warrior. Maybe something like:

 

BS: 3 WS: 5 S: 5 T: 5 W: 2 I: 4 A: 3 Ld: 8 AS: 4

 

Fearless, Rage, FNP (5+)

 

Thunder-Pattern Auto Rifle

S: 5 AP: 4 18" Rapid Fire

 

Heavy Chain Broadsword

S: +2 AP: 4

 

Squad of 5: 200 points

 

Additional Warriors: 20 points each

[b1soul]

I wouldn't make them that much "better" than SM

 

Ork Boyz are physically superior to Guardsmen but not enough to warrant different physical stats on the tabletop

[Hyaenidae]

Counts-As Gal Vorbak.

 

Bam.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Meh,it took muliple naked astartes to take one down. Warhammer stats are in degrees more than direct values. S5 T5 W1 FnP is plenty enough to represent their stature.

[Hyaenidae]

More than multiple naked Legionnaires. The Cerberus Incident cost the XII Legion dearly, each renegade Tonitrua Milites found dead upon a pile of War Hound corpses, each very well armed and fully plated.

 

I'll stick with counts-as GV, brother. :)

[depthcharge12]

More than multiple naked Legionnaires. The Cerberus Incident cost the XII Legion dearly, each renegade Tonitrua Milites found dead upon a pile of War Hound corpses, each very well armed and fully plated.

 

I'll stick with counts-as GV, brother. :)

Yeah that's what I mentioned above as well. It took 3-4 of some of the most bat crap insane legionaries, even at that time, to take one down.

[b1soul]

3-4 isn't really a "pile"...but it's fair to assume there were other Warhounds who survived the combat

[Leif Bearclaw]

Quick question. where's this idea that guns and ammo were rare on Old Night era Terra coming from? First I've ever heard of it.

 

 

Weapons would be standard boltguns or volkites,

Not Volkites. They're specifically stated to be a Martian weapon (unlike the Terran Bolter), so would only have come along once the Unification Wars left Terra, by which point the Astartes had already replaced the Thunder Regiments.

[Fenbain]

Counts as Gal Vorbak was my first idea, but I thought I would give the homebrew thing a go. Seeing as people have very different ideas about what Thunder Warriors should be like on the table, I think keeping them as a counts as Gal Vorbak will be simpler :-)

 

In regards to the limited ranged weapons, I read it online in a couple of places. I will have a look and see if I can find the source.