Blood Angels Vs. Raven Guard Assault Marines Tactics

[TheHyperion]

Hello Sons of Sanguinius,

 

I personally love the way assault marines look and was wondering which you guys thought were better, as the raven guard can use their jump packs in the assault and movement phases but blood angels also have furious charge, and can also take meltas and plasmas. Also, which detatchment would you suggest for Blood Angel Assault Marines and is not having an Eviscerator devalue blood angels assault marines?

 

Thanks

~Sapphon

[Brother Raul]

Eviscerator question-no. X2 spec weapons and free pod means even if you could take eviserators you'd be doing it wrong.

 

Raven guards technically have better reall asm (most ba use them in pods with melta, no jp) but Death company are technically asm too so they're the best imo or sang guard, dam Vv are technically better too.

[Paikis]

I find I really struggle to include Assault Marines in my lists because of the existence of Death Company. There are only a few reasons I can think of to include them at all:

 

1. Meltacide. The ability to drop 2 meltaguns and 2 Inferno pistols within 6 inches of any tank (or anything really) you like is pretty good, and at just over 100 points its one of the cheapest ways to kill tanks and as a bonus, acts as a distraction.

2. You have points left and have used all your Elite slots.

 

As for the lack of the Eviscerator... meh? It's basically a two-handed chainfist, which are good for killing tanks. You know what else is good at killing a tank? 4 melta shots.

[tjr]

My thinking:

 

Assault marines aren't meant for melee.

 

Nobody uses assault marines. 

 

Expect Blood Angels, because we can give them cheap melta guns and pods.

 

Vanilla Assault marines are so bad, that GW had to make the Skyhammer formation in order to get people to buy the ASM kit.

[Marvin_the_Martian]

@Sapphon: I'm also a big fan of how assault marines look :) If I had to choose between the rules for Raven Guard assault marines and Blood Angels assault marines, I'm going to have to go with the Blood Angels rules. If I use the standard BA codex in games (instead of my homebrew codex), I like to run mechanized army lists. Adding plasmaguns and meltaguns to the assault marine options gives mechanized BA lists a bit more teeth, so I'm all for that. 

 

I also have this fantasy that one day, I'll be able to use assault marines with jump packs as highly mobile fire support. I love the mental image of assault marines equipped with bolters leaping from rooftop to rooftop, laying waste to nearby light infantry squads with storms of bolt-fire. But alas, assault marines can't swap their standard weapons for bolters. Blood Angels assault marines can swap two marine's weapons out for plasmaguns though, so for now, that's as close as I'm going to get to living my dream with the current rules.

[Brother Raul]

@brother Marvin_the_Martian I have that dream too, but with HB. Closest Geedubs lets me get are scourges/ swooping hawks :(

[Charlo]

Or bolter DC :D little more expensive, but you get FNP and the option for hella melee combat.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

BIAS .....

 

 

I say Raven Guard Assault troops are better.  I will ignore the wargear because i can.  Just a bare bones Assault marine.  If you compare the damage output of a Assault marine, RG and BA marines do the same at 1-8', because the BA don't have to choose when to use the jump pack. Beyond that the RG start to pull away.  Here is my math.

 

Blood Angel assault marine, wound output vs MEQ, on the charge 1-8' distance.   3 Attacks resulting 1.5 hits.  1.5 Str 5 hits vs T4 = 1 wound.  Add to this 1 HoW hit at I10.  1 Str 4 How hit vs T4 = .5 wound.  Total of 1.5 wounds on a charge.

 

Raven Guard assault marine, wound output vs MEQ, on the charge 1-8' distance.   3 Attacks resulting 1.5 hits.  1.5 Str 4 hits vs T4 = .75 wound.  Add to this 1 HoW hit at I10.  1 Str 4 How hit vs T4( rerolling failed wounds) = .75 wound.  Total of 1.5 wounds on a charge.

 

So if you can use you're Jump pack on the charge the Blood Angel and Raven Guard are equal.  I would even give the RG a bit more because more of his wounds come at I10 from the HoW.   If you have a longer distance, say 15', then the Raven Guard leave the Blood Angel in the dust.   At 15' the Blood Angel WILL use the jump pack in the Movement phase giving up the HOW attack.  At 15' BA = 1 wound and the Raven Guard stays at 1.5 wounds. 

 

This formula assumes that the Marine actually reaches its target on the charge.  If you factor in the % chance of reaching you're target if it is over 14' away the balance shifts more to the Raven Guard, due to the Reroling of charge distance.  If you factor in assaulting through/ over terrain, -2' it tips even more to the XIX.  This is mitigated a bit if you consider what happens when you use jump packs to charge into / out of Difficult terrain (dangerous terrain test).

 

Edit.  If the Blood Angles get a I 5 due to some Formation then they should get a small bump in comparison but not a huge one.

[evildrcheese]

Your math proves nothing. Blood Angels are superior!

 

Jokes aside. ASM aren't valued for damage output in assault, they're valued for their versatility and the flexibility of force. BA have anti infantry in spades , we don't need our ASM to be amazing at punching people in the face (though they're not exactly slouches in that department).

 

D

[Charlo]

Yeah, looking at them in a void, the RG will have a high combat damage output and more maneuverability, but BA can take up to 8 (I think) squads in rhinos with twin + combi plasma, drop with quad melta or more reliably hurt tougher units on the charge. Funnily enough our dudes are actually more shooty, which is quite funny.

 

Again though, outside of the void: In a BA army we have assault in the DC, SG and VV sorted plus lots of our unique options mince infantry, Furioso Frag Cannon, Tac Heavy Flamers, Dakka/ Flamestorm Baal Predators - so AM are not needed outside of thier specialties - aforementioned special weapons.

 

In a RG army, it's VV or AM for the same role (jump assault troops) a smaller, comparatively weaker selection (although math would probably favour RG Vanguards to our own with also cheaper points). But Marines have even more choice than us to cover their bases.

 

Another thing to consider is the Angel's Wrath Intervention Force - its two squads of assault marines and a squa of vanguard that when the vanguard deep strike, the two AM squads can arrive without scatter, then every enemy unit within 6" of any of them takes a S4 hit foreach member of the squad they are near, this covers up for the (usual) lack of jump pack HoW that BA won't have as we need to use them in the move phase. But also works as unless the enemy are fast, you could even then still use your packs next turn in the assault!

 

I may have rambled a bit but in reality unless you compare a Riptide to a Crisis suit comparing units like this in a "what is better" context is rather difficult! 

 

TL;DR: RG will probably have more damage output, but its nothing on dedicated assault units. BA Can shoot better.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Well at least yall don't dispute the #'s.  You may win on the subjective measurements and that is fine.  If you have are 20' away from you're target unit and there is a bunch of terrain in between, The RG are the only Chapter who can get the job done reliably.  If you are right in the face of you're enemy ......

[Charlo]

Well at least yall don't dispute the #'s. You may win on the subjective measurements and that is fine. If you have are 20' away from you're target unit and there is a bunch of terrain in between, The RG are the only Chapter who can get the job done reliably. If you are right in the face of you're enemy ......

True, but that in itself is subjective :P

[TheHyperion]

Thanks everyone for the help! Would there be any advantage to have flesh tearer assault marines instead of Blood Angel ones? I personally enjoy flesh tearers a bit more than blood angels and would love to have gabriel seth in a lost with them!

Thanks

~Sapphon

[LutherMax]

I also have this fantasy that one day, I'll be able to use assault marines with jump packs as highly mobile fire support. I love the mental image of assault marines equipped with bolters leaping from rooftop to rooftop, laying waste to nearby light infantry squads with storms of bolt-fire. But alas, assault marines can't swap their standard weapons for bolters. Blood Angels assault marines can swap two marine's weapons out for plasmaguns though, so for now, that's as close as I'm going to get to living my dream with the current rules.

As Charlo mentioned, aren't Death Company your answer here? Not only can you give them bolters and jump packs but they're Relentless, so can rapid fire those bolters and still charge of you want / need to.

[Charlo]

Thanks everyone for the help! Would there be any advantage to have flesh tearer assault marines instead of Blood Angel ones? I personally enjoy flesh tearers a bit more than blood angels and would love to have gabriel seth in a lost with them!

Thanks

~Sapphon

I'm terms of rules, FT and BA are the same. You can take seth in the same army, he's just counted as faction: BA.

 

What does differ though is the Flesh Tearers Strike Force. It's a different detachment you can use with extra fast attack and only one compulsory troops. You don't get +1 initiative on the charge but instead get rage on a charge roll of 10+ (note just the roll, you don't have to move the full 10+), so useless on DC but a nice occasional bonus on anything else.

 

But in terms of unit selection they are all just BA

[Brother Raul]

What Lord Lorne Walkier said. Again I hate to be all Napoleonic but I look at ASM as hussars. They are oppertunists and their threat bubble is their real strength hence RG are prob better.

 

In saying that specialist roles do suit specialist weapons so ASM BA aren't really asm if meltapodding.

[evildrcheese]

 

Thanks everyone for the help! Would there be any advantage to have flesh tearer assault marines instead of Blood Angel ones? I personally enjoy flesh tearers a bit more than blood angels and would love to have gabriel seth in a lost with them!

Thanks

~Sapphon

I'm terms of rules, FT and BA are the same. You can take seth in the same army, he's just counted as faction: BA.

 

What does differ though is the Flesh Tearers Strike Force. It's a different detachment you can use with extra fast attack and only one compulsory troops. You don't get +1 initiative on the charge but instead get rage on a charge roll of 10+ (note just the roll, you don't have to move the full 10+), so useless on DC but a nice occasional bonus on anything else.

 

But in terms of unit selection they are all just BA

The FTSF is nice if you have alot of ASM as you can run them all and when you pull the rage charge off the ASM are like DC(-1). Though I think most people use this detachment as a drop pod taxi service or for many many bike squads.

 

D