Wyvrens... So good. Are they really that good?

[Brother Talarian]

So I've had a few battles against my friends CSM's. For the latter two games my wyvrens have collected a high kill count. They tend to get 20-30 hits on an average sized squad with many wounds. Resulting in many armor saves to make and a disheartened opponent. Have wyvrens been the bane of your enemies existence as well? Do you not take them in order to play a more "friendly" list?

Tell me your glorious tales! What's the biggest amount of damage your wyvren(s) have done!

[Lukash_]

Wyverns are actually kinda OP. I fully expect them to get a nerf in the next codex, because what they bring to the table for 65 pts is way too good.

 

That said, they are absolutely vicious against anything T5 and under. They're clearly designed for wrecking light infantry, but their rerolls across the board means they slaughter MEQs pretty easily and can pile up enough wounds on TEQ's to make back their point value almost instantly.

[Shamansky]

During a recent tournaments this summer my single Wyvern killed:

- sternguard veteran squad (single volley)

- riptide battlesuit (two volleys)

- spacemarines biker command squad (two volleys) only their chapter masters was left. My other units were shooting them too but failed to damage because of saves, feel no pain, T5 and dice cancer. 

 

There were other kills of course but this were made single-wyvernly.

[WarriorFish]

It's all relative, Wyverns drown opponent's in dice thanks to their re-rolls. The other rules aren't that amazing, ignoring cover when you're AP6 doesn't mean too much for example. This makes them good at dealing with infantry especially light infantry but nothing broken, certainly not comparable to some other unit's capabilities. What makes them good is their cost, by being quite cheap you can shove a couple in a list easily and they will do that much more dice drowning. As the Guard knows well; anything goes away if you throw enough dice at it

If your opponent wants to feel sad about them, how about the fact that the Wyvern is the stand out unit of our codex? Killing infantry is easy, the Wyvern just makes it easier. Would that we had some of the options that other codices have... so until then I'm afraid people will have to shove it if they don't like Wyverns. For everyone else make the most of it before they get the inevitable points increase/nerf next codex

As for kill counts, mine have done quite well. Shredding Marine squads and the like to reduce their numbers goes a long way but much depends on the dice. One game had them take out a drop podding Sword Brethren squad the turn after they arrived which saved a flank I need to get them on the table more!

[Sergeant Lowe]

my current run is a squad of 2 (have a third waiting to be assembled) and I've had some mixed results with them. In one game I virtually wiped out a 10 man tactical squad in a single round of shooting and in another I barely made a dent in it, but they have become a bit of an auto include in my army

[Gabryel]

Wyverns are glorious! But I would not call them overpowered. Two in a squad are enough, but I am seriously considering buying a fourth and then run 2 squads.

[WarriorFish]

Two in a squad is plenty yes. I don't advocate for 3 model squadrons for anything other than Sentinels but for Wyverns there's an additional reason: resolving the attacks for two takes long enough, as well as two usually being sufficient for the task at hand ;)

[Kontakt]

   Bringing 3 wyverns might be grounds for dreadsocking. A friend of mine has been running 3 in 2 separate squadrons to support his foot list. I cannot describe how irritating it is to have so many models removed from play by a 65 point model.

   On a side note, this sheds light on the mediocrity of the standard mortar, which is arguably not worth its points. This of course in comparison to a cheap vehicle that decimates pretty much anything infantry (or bike) on the table.

   The next codex I am sure will bring many exciting features, such as formations. But I can almost certainly say we will not see the wyvern in its current iteration for too much longer.

[Brother Talarian]

Glad to hear all the success stories! Based on the few games I've had with them they seem to be strong and I can see them get a slight points increase. On that note, has there been any rumours concerning the imperial guard? I figured out codex is in a pretty decent state not to encourage rapid change. I could be wrong. Seeing some formations ans bonuses would be awesome, though.

 

My squadron of two wyvrens killed 6 of 7 plague marines in one salvo - the survivor was summarily mopped up by my deep striking scions plasma fire.

In another game the duo cleared a slaneshi squad of CSM and killed a few havocs as well.

[WarriorFish]

Nothing on the horizon, but with GW's tight ship that doesn't mean too much. I'm thinking middle of next year or thereabouts as a safe estimate. Just keep doing what you're doing and we'll adapt to the new codex whenever it arrives ;)

[march10k]

OP?  Well, it depends on what you're facing.  They do a decent job of leveling the playing field against daemon summoning spam and "I have a 90% chance of shrugging off a d weapon to the face because I have seven rerollable 1+ saves" necrons, so that's good.  Against invisible deathstars, they're useless, and that seems to be the flavor of the month.  Against most things, especially most reasonable things, though, they're pretty broken.  I had a pair of them delete 94 guardsmen in 3 turns.  Did it really matter, at that point, what the other 1720 points in my list did or didn't do?  

 

I wouldn't dream of fielding wyverns outside of an un-fun WAAC grudge match tournament...and in an un-fun WAAC grudge match tournament, I'll be pairing a culexus with two pair of wyverns.  And the culexus will be riding in a vendetta.  No invisibility for you, and bye-bye deathstar!!!

[Shamansky]

Culexus in Vendetta... http://k31.kn3.net/taringa/1/7/0/6/2/1/71/nemesisraven/E0A.gif

[CoffeeGrunt]

Mine are alright. Maybe it's because I only really face Marines, and mostly MSU at that, so they don't tend to take names like they do for others.

 

I also only count Twin-Linked on the initial roll, and not any of the subsequent Barrage shots, as it's a bit contentious atm with GW's wording with the shots after the first get to re-roll or not.

[Myrkul]

Given the current trend in codex's; I highly doubt they'll get hit with the nerf bat.

 

If they brought the costs of units like Basalisk's and Manticores down some, wyverrns woulnt be an auto take.

[WarriorFish]

That's a possibility, especially since I'm firmly of the opinion that kit sales help define the rules to a fair degree. I'm sure Bassie sales aren't too great so a shot in the arm would be welcome for our table tops and GW's margins...

[march10k]

Given the current trend in codex's; I highly doubt they'll get hit with the nerf bat.

 

If they brought the costs of units like Basalisk's and Manticores down some, wyverrns woulnt be an auto take.

Griffons...you forgot griffons.  If the wyvern weren't so ridiculous, a cover-ignoring S6AP4 indirect firing ordnance pieplate would be boss (S6 resolving against side armor with ordnance rule to pen...it's actually not terrible, I've popped AV12 with it...)

[CoffeeGrunt]

 

Given the current trend in codex's; I highly doubt they'll get hit with the nerf bat.

 

If they brought the costs of units like Basalisk's and Manticores down some, wyverrns woulnt be an auto take.

Griffons...you forgot griffons.  If the wyvern weren't so ridiculous, a cover-ignoring S6AP4 indirect firing ordnance pieplate would be boss (S6 resolving against side armor with ordnance rule to pen...it's actually not terrible, I've popped AV12 with it...)

 

 

In the 5th Ed Codex they don't Ignore Cover, but do re-roll to hit due to their Accurate Bombardment rule. I think the IA1: 2E rules are the same, but haven't checked recently, so I'll concede that.

 

Sadly, while I was planning ways to make a suitably heretical fleet of Gorgons with Ion Mortars, the Wyvern seems to fill the role it occupies better for slightly more, a similar problem I have with Mortar Teams. (To be fair, removing the erroneous 5pt tax per Heavy Weapon Team in a HWS would go a long way to giving them a use again.)

[Lord Commander Scrymgeour]

I tried a list once against my friend's Necrons. barebones platoons, priests and CCS and two wyverns to represent a PDF reacting to the waking of a Tomb world.

 

He asked me never to play that list ever again. The wyverns pretty much deleted a unit a turn, hidden behing LOS blockers, and a couple of hundred meat shields turn out to be able to pretty much ignore anything that anyone can throw at them. So what if they're killing 30 men a turn. Send in the next wave. 

 

I have never again used that list. However i learnt that 1. Wyverns are boss and 2. agressive guard can literally cover the entire board in only a few turns.

[march10k]

Given the current trend in codex's; I highly doubt they'll get hit with the nerf bat.

If they brought the costs of units like Basalisk's and Manticores down some, wyverrns woulnt be an auto take.

Griffons...you forgot griffons. If the wyvern weren't so ridiculous, a cover-ignoring S6AP4 indirect firing ordnance pieplate would be boss (S6 resolving against side armor with ordnance rule to pen...it's actually not terrible, I've popped AV12 with it...)

In the 5th Ed Codex they don't Ignore Cover, but do re-roll to hit due to their Accurate Bombardment rule. I think the IA1: 2E rules are the same, but haven't checked recently, so I'll concede that.

Sadly, while I was planning ways to make a suitably heretical fleet of Gorgons with Ion Mortars, the Wyvern seems to fill the role it occupies better for slightly more, a similar problem I have with Mortar Teams. (To be fair, removing the erroneous 5pt tax per Heavy Weapon Team in a HWS would go a long way to giving them a use again.)

No, you're right, they don't...I was thinking in terms of obliterating the huddled masses on the other side of an ADL

[WarriorFish]

Only through the barrage rules, but with the large pie plate and the re-roll you had good odds of removing a cover save. Not as good as outright removing it but such rules didn't exist much back then :P

[Ishagu]

I think they are a very good unit, but certainly not broken.

 

They are easy to destroy, especially with an alpha strike element, and they can't deal with infantry in transports.

 

If someone was using a unit of 3 against me, I certainly won't feel cheated. It's up to me, as a tabletop general, to protect my Troops by taking appropriate measures.

[Kontakt]

They are easy to destroy, but at 65 points a model, anything deep striking in order to kill them costs as much as 2 of them at least, if not more.

[Quneitra]

A scarab swarm of about thirty bases annihilated in a single barrage is good enough for me.

The last time I used it was against a Guardblob. It didn't make its points back because of bad rolling and because I had heavier-hitting equipment on the field alongside it, but I think it was a good psychological tool. The fear of the Wyvern has spread far and wide, so bringing one onto the field is sure to make your opponent freak out.

[casb1965]

They are the cheapest sniper unit in the game.

[march10k]

They are easy to destroy, but at 65 points a model, anything deep striking in order to kill them costs as much as 2 of them at least, if not more.

This.  Plus opportunity cost.  What else could that deepstriking unit be killing instead?  my demolishers, perhaps?  Or my warlord, Pasquisher?  That's the real issue...they're so damned nasty for so damned cheap, they have to be dealt with, and quickly, by any army that isn't either in TDA or fully mechanized.  Which usually means diverting a stupidly expensive trump card that had originally intended to hunt land raiders and leman russes.