Rule clarification: Intervening models.

[Brother Talarian]

Hello gentlemen,

Once again I call upon the veterans for a rule clarification - specifically intervening models.

 

Now, I've watched quite a few battle reports where the IG player "bubble wraps" his infantry around his tanks... I always assumed this was to provide them with a 5+ cover.

Now, I played a game the other day at my local store where I positioned my conscripts in front of my tanks.

When the time came, my opponent fired at my tanks and I said that I would receive a 4+ cover if he decided to do so. A watcher of the game declared that I wouldn't. I then indicated that it states that intervening models create a 5+ cover, and if it's a vehicle being targeted 25% needs to be covered. They then pulled other players from other tables to clarify and they all said I wouldn't get cover. Now, as ask you, my fellow guardsmen, what do you think? Have you encountered this problem before? Yes, I realize I was outnumbered and they all said I didn't, but I am stubborn and from what I've read I clearly get a cover - unless someone else can point out what I've missed. Also, it needs to be said that my tank had at least 5 tightly packed conscripts in front of it... In my mind well over 25%

Anyhow, what say you?

[Slave to Darkness]

I agree with you. If your opponent says you do then you do, tell the back seat gamer and his neck beard friends to :cuss off next time

[Kontakt]

There are actually 2 separate rules here. Intervening models provide 5+ when shooting at most models. If they obscure vision by being in the way of shooting, they give cover, but what about vehicles? Vehicle cover is completely separate however, based on actual visibility. If the infantry obscured 25% of the facing being shot at, its a 4+. There isn't much else to say, bubble wrap on a leman russ is a 4+ cover save in most situations.

[greycat]

Generally i bubble wrap my tanks not for a cover save but to protect them from drop podding melta and assault units.

[WarriorFish]

I thought this was a rules question but it seems its a little more then that. First thing is that the game is between you and your opponent (or your team vs the opposing team if there's more than one per side) - nobody else matters. They can offer help on rules if they want but you are under no obligation to accept, listen, or tolerate their interruption. Tell them you'd prefer not to have any outsiders interfering with the game and if they've any sense they will leave it alone. Watching a game without interfering is apparently a lost art in our hobby...

 

As to the rules, Kontakt covers the process. 25% of the vehicle is required to be behind cover, which intervening models are. It's then a matter of drawing Line of Sight from the firing model/gun and calculating if that 25% is achieved. If it is then you get a cover save, the rest is working out what the cover save is and you're done :) Last but not least bubble wrapping is more for preventing charges or the enemy closing into melta range etc than cover saves but any protection they can give is of course good :tu:

[march10k]

I am confused about one thing, though...the mention of 4+...I would think that the intervening infantry, if they cover 25% of the eligible surface area of the target (so not gun tubes, antennae, commanders popping out of the hatch, etc, just the hull and the turret!) from the firer's perspective (so an infantryman would usually find that massed infantry obstruct his line of sight, but a wraithknight would laugh), would confer "obscured" status...which should be 5+? (absent camo netting, stealth, etc)

[nismogrendel]

I am confused about one thing, though...the mention of 4+...I would think that the intervening infantry, if they cover 25% of the eligible surface area of the target (so not gun tubes, antennae, commanders popping out of the hatch, etc, just the hull and the turret!) from the firer's perspective (so an infantryman would usually find that massed infantry obstruct his line of sight, but a wraithknight would laugh), would confer "obscured" status...which should be 5+? (absent camo netting, stealth, etc)

 

That sounds correct to me.  Also say a lascannon team on top of a 3 story building... similar situation right.  Just comes down to an LOS check?

[Kontakt]

   As the rules for vehicle cover state that they do not follow any of the other rules for cover, and that the base cover for 25% obscured on vehicles is 4+, we could easily surmise that you cannot receive a 5+ cover on vehicles due to intervening models if they do not obscure 25% or more. (If you think I'm wrong here, feel free to explain why)

 

   In regards to the aforementioned lascannon team, if the building does not count as area terrain (gw buildings count as ruins) then standard Line of sight would probably apply. This is a grey area that GW fixed by making their buildings into area terrain, conferring the bonus to all non vehicle models on or in the building.

 

On a side note about bubble wrapping - While I think its great, be aware that any shots from hull or sponson weapons will shoot through your own men and confer a cover save to the enemy (unless they are a vehicle, of course).

[CommissarHughes]

This probably needs to go to the FAQ, It needs clarification.

But if that's true Bullgrins + camo netting = happy pants feelings

[greycat]

If you really want that save them place those infantry in base to base so there is no question they are blocking the hull.

 

Usually at my local store we would play that as a 5+ save despite what the rules say. Also if its a casual game just ask if you can roll for it ie: on a 1-3 it doesn't apply on 4-6 the rule does apply.

 

Sometimes though especially if everyone disagrees with the rule then you just have to go with it. I even played at a tournament where all the players and the TO's were playing the rule wrong so I just had to go with it (I know that sounds like I was probably the person making the mistake but GW even released a FAQ for it).

[Kontakt]

This probably needs to go to the FAQ, It needs clarification.

But if that's true Bullgrins + camo netting = happy pants feelings

Similarly, you could question the rules for  a vehicle behind the aegis defence line. However I must admit that it covers enough of most vehicles to apply for vehicle cover anyway...