How to fix my beloved Terminators

[Tasteslikechicken]

In my head this could be quite simple. Just wanted others take on it....so my big suggestion would be..... Ignores unwieldy.

[Charlo]

In my head this could be quite simple. Just wanted others take on it....so my big suggestion would be..... Ignores unwieldy.

 

I actually think this would fit the fluff and be really cool, they also only have 3 attacks max each and seem to be appropriately costed enough. Only thing is then Lightning Claws sort of lose thier niche as "strike at Initiative Terminators", even if they do get more attacks and shred.

 

It suits TH/SS nicely though, as then you are trading your ranged game for survivability.

 

Really though, the unwieldy has never been the problem with terminators, at least in my opinion, the 2+/5++ (maybe 3++)/ Potential FNP keeps them alive.

 

The real problem it's that their shooting game is from an age gone by. Stormbolters offer nothing to a marine in TDA - they are already assault and a regular Tactical marine functions the same at 12", he just cannot charge (which he could if he shot his pistol). That, and S4/AP5 is fine and all, but for the so called champions of humanity, you think they'd arm them with something a little more potent. The Vanilla formation that gives them an extra shot when teleporting in/ exiting a transport vehicle is a step in the right direction, but still pretty meh. What can we do to fix this? Firstly, to represent the stability that TDA offers all the Storm bolter shots they fire should be twin-linked, as relentless does nothing for them. I also think the storm bolter should have 3 or 4 shots base or maybe have access to different firing modes for different effects, burst (extra shot), sustained (pinning), single shot (precision shots) this could behave in a similar, yet different manner to Sternguard Special Ammunition. Pinning would be especially thematic and also potentially solve the problem of Terminators not having Assault grenades.

 

Speaking of something more potent though...

 

Heavy weapons are 1 in 5 Terminators, in what seems to be the most insane application of Guillimans codex ever. These skilled veterans aren't allowed an extra weapon to get the job done against the toughest of foes unless there is ten of them? I cry foul. A 5 man unit of shooty terms with twin assault cannons/ Heavy Flamers/ Cyclone Missile Launchers would be fantastic. Although maybe it would be overkill with the storm bolter changes proposed above, but then again it would look and feel badass, which is what you want from these hulking warriors.

 

Finally, I'd like to take an old rule and reapply it to a different unit. Back in he day Veteran Squads (before they were split into Stern/ Vanguard with special ammunition and jump packs for everyone) got to choose a single special rule to use for the game: Furious Charge, Tank Hunters, Fearless I think were a few. Well how about we give this to Terminators? We could expand the options to interceptor, skyfire, tank/ monster hunters, Fearless etc This way they can be given an extra bit of use in the army.

 

Currently Tactical Terminators are over costed and only really do well against hordes, and even then - a single Ork Nob with a Klaw could wreck the squad, not to mention the 30 odd attacks from his boy entourage.

 

I think at the moment Space Wolves have it best with Terminators. They can mix and match wargear (guns and storm shields anyone?), take Combis, all have WS5 and can take minimal units of 3 for suicide plasma/ Melta runs.

[shaun03]

Put them in Spartan run then straight at something nasty. Most people are use term being treated like glass cannon. They last thing they want to see is Spartan full of LC Th/SS mixed coming at them. Plus with size of it you can hide your DC.

 

The Ram is another good option for them. It's durbile and can dish out the pain.

 

Terminators need some serious help to catch up, the fluff makes them all that. There hay day died out after 2nd.

 

Drop pod list might see some use for tactical terinmantors but there over costed for what they bring.

[Servant of Dante]

I'm so glad other people think this is a problem! Although I do not own any "tactical" terminators, I feel they are so cool. I've only been playing for a little under 2 years, but a while back I bought some 3rd ed rules, including the space marine codex. In the model showcase section, I saw terminators being the strong center an entire army. I want to be able to do that now, but with the amount of AP2 shooting out there, I feel that just isn't possible with the rules the way they are. I don't know about the shooting thing, but I agree they should have access to more heavy weapons.

 

As for survivability,  I think T5 might help some, but that really doesn't do much against most AP2 weapons. A standard 4+ invuln save would go a long way I think. I wouldn't even mind a points hike, I just want my terminators to be able to survive a single enemy shooting phase out in the open. Really, I don't know how other people feel, but my assault termis only make it into cc if they are in a land raider, with a priest, with storm shields.

[evildrcheese]

Personally my problem is terminators is that the rules for TDA are completely obsolete thanks to Arty Armour. The same level of protection vs small arms fire compared to armour that still allows Sweeping Advances and you can jump on a bike for +1T and relentless. Pah...

 

TDA needs to offer +2T imo, this gives terminators more resilience to small arms, but still leaves them vulnerable to things dedicated to killing them (grav/plas). An extra wound wouldn't go amiss (I excel at rolling 1s), but that might be pushing it, but SMs so need a durable multi wound unit, and terminators git the bill perfectly.

 

In terms of damage output, I think 2 heavies per 5man is a good shout. Storm bolters don't need anything too fancy imo, perhaps tweak them to Salvo 3/5? Might need to tweak point coats for them as vehicle upgrades though...

 

D

[Charlo]

Personally my problem is terminators is that the rules for TDA are completely obsolete thanks to Arty Armour. The same level of protection vs small arms fire compared to armour that still allows Sweeping Advances and you can jump on a bike for +1T and relentless. Pah...

 

Totally Agree

 

TDA needs to offer +2T imo, this gives terminators more resilience to small arms, but still leaves them vulnerable to things dedicated to killing them (grav/plas). An extra wound wouldn't go amiss (I excel at rolling 1s), but that might be pushing it, but SMs so need a durable multi wound unit, and terminators git the bill perfectly.

 

GW seems to just be plain afraid of giving marines extra W, god knows why. I agree with toughness, maybe 2W and T5 is the answer. 4++ should probably exist too...

 

In terms of damage output, I think 2 heavies per 5man is a good shout. Storm bolters don't need anything too fancy imo, perhaps tweak them to Salvo 3/5? Might need to tweak point coats for them as vehicle upgrades though...

 

Salvo 3/5 would make them always shoot 5 shots still - a little too much. Although it would over lap with the Assault Cannon, I think considering Eldar get Rending from little disks fired by thier bloody militia, so should our belt fed, artificer made, rapid fire, hand-held, micro warhead launchers...

 

D

C

[Servant of Dante]

I was afraid to mention adding a wound, but I sure was thinking it. I believe this deserves a full write up, but I can't do that right now.

 

I agree with charlo for the most part, but I am against changing the stats of established weapons now I will summarise the ideas I like. I think implementing all of these with maybee a small points hike would be great, though I am afraid of msking grey Knights unkillable.

 

2 wounds

+1 T

Special rule making all storm Bolter shots twin linked

Standard 4++

2 heavy weapons per 5 termis

[Brother_Mike]

 

In my head this could be quite simple. Just wanted others take on it....so my big suggestion would be..... Ignores unwieldy.

 

I actually think this would fit the fluff and be really cool, they also only have 3 attacks max each and seem to be appropriately costed enough. Only thing is then Lightning Claws sort of lose thier niche as "strike at Initiative Terminators", even if they do get more attacks and shred.

 

It suits TH/SS nicely though, as then you are trading your ranged game for survivability.

 

Really though, the unwieldy has never been the problem with terminators, at least in my opinion, the 2+/5++ (maybe 3++)/ Potential FNP keeps them alive.

 

The real problem it's that their shooting game is from an age gone by. Stormbolters offer nothing to a marine in TDA - they are already assault and a regular Tactical marine functions the same at 12", he just cannot charge (which he could if he shot his pistol). That, and S4/AP5 is fine and all, but for the so called champions of humanity, you think they'd arm them with something a little more potent. The Vanilla formation that gives them an extra shot when teleporting in/ exiting a transport vehicle is a step in the right direction, but still pretty meh. What can we do to fix this? Firstly, to represent the stability that TDA offers all the Storm bolter shots they fire should be twin-linked, as relentless does nothing for them. I also think the storm bolter should have 3 or 4 shots base or maybe have access to different firing modes for different effects, burst (extra shot), sustained (pinning), single shot (precision shots) this could behave in a similar, yet different manner to Sternguard Special Ammunition. Pinning would be especially thematic and also potentially solve the problem of Terminators not having Assault grenades.

 

Speaking of something more potent though...

 

Heavy weapons are 1 in 5 Terminators, in what seems to be the most insane application of Guillimans codex ever. These skilled veterans aren't allowed an extra weapon to get the job done against the toughest of foes unless there is ten of them? I cry foul. A 5 man unit of shooty terms with twin assault cannons/ Heavy Flamers/ Cyclone Missile Launchers would be fantastic. Although maybe it would be overkill with the storm bolter changes proposed above, but then again it would look and feel badass, which is what you want from these hulking warriors.

 

Finally, I'd like to take an old rule and reapply it to a different unit. Back in he day Veteran Squads (before they were split into Stern/ Vanguard with special ammunition and jump packs for everyone) got to choose a single special rule to use for the game: Furious Charge, Tank Hunters, Fearless I think were a few. Well how about we give this to Terminators? We could expand the options to interceptor, skyfire, tank/ monster hunters, Fearless etc This way they can be given an extra bit of use in the army.

 

Currently Tactical Terminators are over costed and only really do well against hordes, and even then - a single Ork Nob with a Klaw could wreck the squad, not to mention the 30 odd attacks from his boy entourage.

 

I think at the moment Space Wolves have it best with Terminators. They can mix and match wargear (guns and storm shields anyone?), take Combis, all have WS5 and can take minimal units of 3 for suicide plasma/ Melta runs.

 

Pretty much this. I believe CSM have the same flexibility when it comes to terminators as well. But for some reason, all the other space marine chapters get uppity about how their veteran warriors choose to arm themselves (even though vanguard veterans and to a certain extend sternguard veterans can pick whatever they want).

[Dempsey]

It seems that termies main problem is surivability - they die to small arms fire, and proliferation of AP2 and D weaponry in current meta which makes 2+ armour a little meh...

So to fix them - you should address those two isues.

T5 or 2W (or even both) would help against small arms fire

as for AP2 - maybe introduce rule that termie armour allows you to roll for save when AP of weapon is equal to armour value so in reality you could roll it for AP2 weapons (most often than not - it would be some kind of plasma technology and termie armour is something designed to work inside plasma reactors) but against very powerfull AP1 weapons even termie armour will give them only 5++ protection.

 

Also there is problem with firepower output. I don't understand why termies who are after all veterans can't choose weapons they like/need for the task - after all you pay points for every upgrade - and if you want 10man squad with 10cyclone launchers then it woul cost you 650pts! (how much new FW TAU behemot suit costs? It has 10W and can't be taken out by single well placed pie plate... oh and it is T9?) So termies allowed to take what they like would not be overpowered (even aplying changes to survivability)

[Charlo]

I'm a big fan of the 1+ armour save for termies too. It's a 2+ but is only negated by AP1. That with a boost to T5 or 2W would sort them out nicely.

 

 

I agree with charlo for the most part, but I am against changing the stats of established weapons now I will summarise the ideas I like. I think implementing all of these with maybee a small points hike would be great, though I am afraid of msking grey Knights unkillable.
 

 

Really though, when was the last time you saw anyone choose to buy a storm bolter? When a choice is useless (even when that cheap) it is bad game design. I feel the stormbolter in it's current state offers nothing to models and as such needs to be overhauled. Obviously this (along with any terminator changes) would need to be over an edition of rules and need a good number of FAQs.

 

Plus Storm bolters are too cool of a name/ concept/ icon to let go to waste.

 

That said, I think by next edition we will be on digital rules but with Codex's remaining if people want the option for fluff etc, like AoS does now.

[evildrcheese]

I still think you need to go to +2T. This actually makes kitting out a character a difficult choice.

 

+1T for a bike, gain relentless, 4+ Jink and move 12"

 

Or

 

+2T for TDA, gain relentless, +5 Invul, move 6" (and potentially +1W)

 

Hardly a no brainer. Gives different incentives for different gear.

 

D

[Father Mapple]

Extra wound helps with their survivability a lot and keeps the fluff. Bright lances or lascannon should murder even a terminator, and missiles should make them take a step back or be cautious as long as the armor saves them. Upping the toughness doesn't allow S8 to keep its intimidation factor. Even wraith xenos and big tyranids are scared of a few S8 shots. But the extra wound literally doubles the number of S7 or less shots it takes to kill them and stops a single 1 bring rolled from being so impactful.

[Servant of Dante]

I'm a big fan of the 1+ armour save for termies too. It's a 2+ but is only negated by AP1. That with a boost to T5 or 2W would sort them out nicely.

 

 

 

 

I agree with charlo for the most part, but I am against changing the stats of established weapons now I will summarise the ideas I like. I think implementing all of these with maybee a small points hike would be great, though I am afraid of msking grey Knights unkillable.

 

Really though, when was the last time you saw anyone choose to buy a storm bolter? When a choice is useless (even when that cheap) it is bad game design. I feel the stormbolter in it's current state offers nothing to models and as such needs to be overhauled. Obviously this (along with any terminator changes) would need to be over an edition of rules and need a good number of FAQs.

 

Plus Storm bolters are too cool of a name/ concept/ icon to let go to waste.

 

That said, I think by next edition we will be on digital rules but with Codex's remaining if people want the option for fluff etc, like AoS does now.

Sure i understand the stormbolter is really bad. In this case I agree it should be changed now that I think about it. I don't like the salvo idea though. Maybee just assault 4 I think you suggested that earlier.

 

Gosh I hate replying on a phone

[Charlo]

Yeah, it can be a chore.

 

3 Shots and Rending would sort them out IMO. Even if it's pseudo at ap3 or something.

[Grazcruzk]

I'd love to see terminators get some love. The two wounds sounds great! I'd like to chime in about the storm bolter especially really quick though. I like the idea of something like rending plus feel no pain. So imagine all existing weapons with rending would be ap2 on a 6 to wound, but you could also have rending(3), for example, which would be ap3 on a roll of a 6. Could be applied to a number of weapons, especially storm bolters! I'm not so sure how well it would work out with extra armor pen and auto wound, however. Might need to be something new altogether like "Piercing(x)"

 

 

As an aside for allies.. Right now the best way I think you can run storm bolters is on inquisition acolytes en mass with a few weaponsmiths and hope for 36" range and rending. :D

[Charlo]

You know, maybe even just something simple like Twin-linked and Shred on the SB. So every hit counts?

 

I like Piercing(x) though, that would be a great mechanic. Eldar could be Piercing(4) ;)

[Marvin_the_Martian]

I had a thought about storm bolters after reading through these posts, but first, I need to give credit where credit is due:

2 wounds
+1 T
Special rule making all storm Bolter shots twin linked
Standard 4++
2 heavy weapons per 5 termis

 

Yeah, it can be a chore.

 

3 Shots and Rending would sort them out IMO. Even if it's pseudo at ap3 or something.

I agree that storm bolters do not do enough damage to be justified as the standard weapons for tactical terminators. However, I don't agree that storm bolters should be rending, or even ap3. Lowering the AP of these weapons does not increase the number of GEQ models they kill per turn and it would make them overlap with all of the other weapon options that we have for dealing with MEQ (plasma and grav to say the least). I think storm bolters should be written up so that they represent a serious threat to light and medium infantry. To that end, I suggest the following changes:

 

Lower AP to 4

Increase to Assault 3

 

As to Servant of Dante's suggestion to give tactical terminators twin-linked with storm bolters, I think that would be a little much with the above changes. If you definitely want to to make sure you hit with 14-15 of these shots, you can always add in a librarian rolling on divination. THAT would annihilate any 10 man squad of 4+ armor aspect warriors and put a serious dent in a large unit of ork 'Ard Boyz.

 

I also agree that terminators are not survivable enough to justify their point cost or their fluff. Here are the ideas which have been suggested so far:

 

 

As for survivability,  I think T5 might help some, but that really doesn't do much against most AP2 weapons. A standard 4+ invuln save would go a long way I think. I wouldn't even mind a points hike, I just want my terminators to be able to survive a single enemy shooting phase out in the open. Really, I don't know how other people feel, but my assault termis only make it into cc if they are in a land raider, with a priest, with storm shields.

 

TDA needs to offer +2T imo, this gives terminators more resilience to small arms, but still leaves them vulnerable to things dedicated to killing them (grav/plas). An extra wound wouldn't go amiss (I excel at rolling 1s), but that might be pushing it, but SMs so need a durable multi wound unit, and terminators git the bill perfectly.

 

It seems that termies main problem is surivability - they die to small arms fire, and proliferation of AP2 and D weaponry in current meta which makes 2+ armour a little meh...

So to fix them - you should address those two isues.

T5 or 2W (or even both) would help against small arms fire

as for AP2 - maybe introduce rule that termie armour allows you to roll for save when AP of weapon is equal to armour value so in reality you could roll it for AP2 weapons (most often than not - it would be some kind of plasma technology and termie armour is something designed to work inside plasma reactors) but against very powerfull AP1 weapons even termie armour will give them only 5++ protection.

 

I'm really not a fan of the 1+ armor save since AP 1 is extremely rare outside of melta weapons. Forcing your opponent to take that one weapon in his dex which is actually AP 1 in order to reliably take out terminators sounds really unsporting to me. Extra wounds is something I can get behind though. Terminators should be able to walk through a hail of bolts/las-fire/*insert low AP ammunition here* and come through with minimal casualties. The extra wound, as many of you have already mentioned, allows you to shrug off a couple  unlucky 1's without compromising the unit. Extra toughness though...that's getting dangerous. I, for one, am not a proponent of bikes granting +1 toughness and I don't think it's appropriate to hand it out to other units either. Anti-tank weaponry should be able to instantly kill a non-special character marine. Granting an extra toughness AND and extra wound would would make a 200 point terminator unit far too survivable and generate a lot of push to increase the strength of weaponry in other codexes to 10 to balance it back out.

 

Similarly, I don't think it's appropriate to say there's a "proliferation" of strength D weaponry. Craftworlds is a huge offender atm, but none of the other codexes (to my knowledge) have STR D in an alarming quantity so it's not fair to say there's a pattern emerging. That being said, if terminators become TOO survivable for their points, then again, there would be a big push to grant other codexes access to STR D weaponry to balance out terminators.

 

Ok, so here's the summary of my analysis

 

TLDR:

Storm bolters should be increased to:

STR 4 AP 4 Assault 3

 

And terminators should be increased to 2 wounds each.

[Dempsey]

As for armour protecion against small arms fire... (I'm not the fan but just maybe in this case it would be apropiate?) make terminator armour able to reroll 1's?

[Xenith]

"Terminator armour features some of the most advanced Auto-Medicae and pain dampening technology in the galaxy: Terminator Armour confers the Feel No Pain rule on the bearer"

[Charlo]

As for armour protecion against small arms fire... (I'm not the fan but just maybe in this case it would be apropiate?) make terminator armour able to reroll 1's?

 

See, the problem with this is that they you have a (I believe) 1/36 chance of failing a roll. That is frustratingly low for an opponent and will only serve to make more AP2 thrown thier way - not that it wasn't anyway but you get the idea.

 

Terminators are in a weird place with survivability in that the bane of them is both massed small arms, due to this being a dice game (that they are meant to fluffily shrug off) and the proliferation of AP2 that has entered codicies over the years. All of the changes usually only serve to solve one of these problems, as a few examples:

• 1+ Save: Only protects against AP2 - End up in a weird situation where bolters are as effective as Lascannons (sort of)
• 2W: Only protects against small arms - Plasma and Grav is considerably weakened, but melta, lascannons etc will hurt even more.
• Reroll 1's: Probably considered OP - Massed AP2 still a problem
• T5: Small Arms damage considerably reduced (just look at DW Knights) - AP2 Still a bane overall, with Grav and Plasma still 2+ to kill

All of these factors make terminators very hard to balance.

 

Going in a different direction though, they should have as standard is an immunity to rending, I feel that this fits them wethering off small arms/ multishot weaponry quite well.

 

I think 2W may just be the best option. While you still take damage from Grav/ Plasma, you can double down on a big squad, add some FNP and really tank stuff, as you still get two 5+ to it. Centurion suits give an extra wound (for cheese "buy me" reasons mind you), so I don't see why TDA doesn't. Lascannons and such wouldn't be fun to face but really if they're shooting your terms with anti tank then your tanks are safe. Also if you get these guys in the enemy deployment zone, you can bet that the anti tank will be elsewhere anyway!

 

Obviously this would be a huge change across loads of books - maybe even heresy, although probably not as you could argue they have some 2W Terms anyway and the older pattern armour may not have the extra wound on the basic man.

 

A tad random, but if you attach a Sanguinary Priest to the unit with a Jump Pack, can they still Deep Strike - as they bth have the rule?

 

As you can tell I'm passionate about this topic, especially as I spluged on some old school/ new space hulk terms last night - determined to see them do well :P

[Morticon]

I think Salvo 3/5 24", S4, AP5 is really solid.  Makes them half decent at shooting.  

But, if nothing else, I think just +1W would be a perfectly justifiable fix. Termy armour gives +1W.  Its a great offset for all the drawbacks/cost.   They still die to x2 Str but its the pesky lasguns and other nonsense that wind up taking you down that is so annoying. 

 

AP2 is just way, way too ubiquitous to even consider factoring TDA as being anywhere near as impressive as it should be in the fluff. 

[Servant of Dante]

I think the two wounds is enough for survivability.

It looks like there are 2 current suggestions for the storm bolsters-

Ap4 and assault 3 or

Salvo 3/5

 

I prefer keeping them as assault weapons.

What about the extra heavy weapons? Should it be 2 regardless of squad size or 2 for every 5 in the squad or 2 for squads of 5 to 9 and 3 for squads of 10 or something else?

[Charlo]

I think the two wounds is enough for survivability.

It looks like there are 2 current suggestions for the storm bolsters-

Ap4 and assault 3 or

Salvo 3/5

 

I prefer keeping them as assault weapons.

What about the extra heavy weapons? Should it be 2 regardless of squad size or 2 for every 5 in the squad or 2 for squads of 5 to 9 and 3 for squads of 10 or something else?

 

Assault or Salvo doesn't really matter on TDA as they are relentless and I think extra shots is better than AP4.

 

Heavy weapons should be 2 per 5 - But I like that idea of 3 in 10 - like Skitaari.

[Servant of Dante]

People in power armor can have storm boaters and making them salvo effects them

[Charlo]

That's why I said on TDA ;) I think if they were 10 points I'd give them to shooty tactical sergeants to just amp up the damage if they were salvos though!