How to fix my beloved Terminators

[evildrcheese]

 

 

I think the two wounds is enough for survivability.

It looks like there are 2 current suggestions for the storm bolsters-

Ap4 and assault 3 or

Salvo 3/5

 

I prefer keeping them as assault weapons.

What about the extra heavy weapons? Should it be 2 regardless of squad size or 2 for every 5 in the squad or 2 for squads of 5 to 9 and 3 for squads of 10 or something else?

Assault or Salvo doesn't really matter on TDA as they are relentless and I think extra shots is better than AP4.

 

Heavy weapons should be 2 per 5 - But I like that idea of 3 in 10 - like Skitaari.

But 2 per 5 means 4 in a 10 man squad. Then combat squad, 4 heavies in one block of 5 with a single wound shield. OMG that would be brilliant!

 

D

[Charlo]

 

 

I think the two wounds is enough for survivability.

It looks like there are 2 current suggestions for the storm bolsters-

Ap4 and assault 3 or

Salvo 3/5

 

I prefer keeping them as assault weapons.

What about the extra heavy weapons? Should it be 2 regardless of squad size or 2 for every 5 in the squad or 2 for squads of 5 to 9 and 3 for squads of 10 or something else?

Assault or Salvo doesn't really matter on TDA as they are relentless and I think extra shots is better than AP4.

 

Heavy weapons should be 2 per 5 - But I like that idea of 3 in 10 - like Skitaari.

But 2 per 5 means 4 in a 10 man squad. Then combat squad, 4 heavies in one block of 5 with a single wound shield. OMG that would be brilliant!

 

D

 

 

I meant you can take up to two, but when you make the squad full size you get to add an extra one. Skitarii do it like that. 2 special weapons per squad, but if its full you can buy a 3rd.

 

Sure min squads of 2 heavies in 5 would be "better" but that's extra elite slots?

 

But I agree, maybe 4 in a squad would be acceptable... It would be like another type of devastator squad.

[Servant of Dante]

Fair enough, but it changes the very nature of the weapon, granted I've always thought it strange anyone could fire 2 boltguns strapped together (stormbolter) and charge, but not a standard boltgun.

Suffice it to say I would be fine with salvo 3/5

 

Edit: I'm talking about the storm bolter in the text above.

 

Also, I think you should ALWAYS be able to have 2 heavy weapons in a terminator squad. If you invest the full 400 points in a ten man squad, then I think you should be able to have 4 heavy weapons ( possibly only 3 if 4 is OP )

 

Edit the second: as far as I can tell, most everyone agrees that having 2 wounds alone is enough enhancement for survivability. I say this because once we reach a consensus on everything I'm going to post a modified codex entry here and in the homegrown rules forum

[Charlo]

Fair enough, but it changes the very nature of the weapon, granted I've always thought it strange anyone could fire 2 boltguns strapped together (stormbolter) and charge, but not a standard boltgun.

Suffice it to say I would be fine with salvo 3/5

 

Edit: I'm talking about the storm bolter in the text above.

 

Also, I think you should ALWAYS be able to have 2 heavy weapons in a terminator squad. If you invest the full 400 points in a ten man squad, then I think you should be able to have 4 heavy weapons ( possibly only 3 if 4 is OP )

 

Edit the second: as far as I can tell, most everyone agrees that having 2 wounds alone is enough enhancement for survivability. I say this because once we reach a consensus on everything I'm going to post a modified codex entry here and in the homegrown rules forum

 

Yeah, and I think 4 heavy weapons isn't out of the question as you have Devs.

 

2W makes sense as you can get terms with 2W in GK and it isn't game breaking by any means.

[evildrcheese]

Personally, I think I bump in T isn't unreasonable as well as the extra wound. I always think back to when I first had a game against a riptide, it was hard to hurt and then proceeded to shrug most of them off on it's 2+, 3++, FnP and I remember thinking..."isn't that what Terminators are meant to do"?...except they don't lose output effectiveness when taking wounds.

 

D

[Marvin_the_Martian]

I think there's a lot of insight to be gained by trying to imagine what it would be like to play against toughness 5, 2 wound terminators, especially if they remain 200 points for a unit of 5. What would you take as Blood Angels to combat terminators with these stats? The reflexive answer would be vindicators since the demolisher cannon can instant-death toughness 5 multi-wound models. The second option would be massed plasma, but as we covered above, that's sub-optimal now that terminators will have two wounds each.

 

In my opinion, this train of thought illustrates not only why adding an extra toughness to terminators could be unbalancing, but also why playing against codexes with unbalanced units are really aggravating to play against (substitute "terminators" for wraithknights, riptides, etc.). 

 

Firstly, we don't KNOW that our opponent will take terminators, but there is always the possibility that if our opponent takes them, he/she will take multiple units of them.

Second, we know that if multiple units of terminators are taken, we will be put at a SERIOUS disadvantage. Failing to have an answer for this scenario means a very probable chance of defeat.

Third, the answers to this scenario in our codex are limited to very expensive units (the massed plasma option) that will take up a significant chunk of our army (> 1/3 at 1500 points) or units that don't synergize well with how our codex plays (vindicators).

 

To summarize, just the possibility of facing two units of terminators is enough to impose serious restrictions on our choices during the list building phase. That's not really fun for me as a player since it leads to less variety in the types of armies I play. 

[evildrcheese]

You forgot grav as a counter. And it's a hard counter too.

 

Grav Cents/grav bikes would still leave a great gaping hole in a terminator unit.

 

D

[Servant of Dante]

Assuming the changes being made are:

2 Wounds

2 heavy weapons, 4 for squads of 10

Storm bolters changed to Salvo 3/5

 

What kind of points increase are we looking at here? I find costing things difficult, but I think 45 or 50 points per model would be fair

 

On the topic of gravturrions: 3 gravturrions with prescience once shot at my 7 assault terminators 5 of which had storm shields and Corbulo was in my squad. Due to some fantastic rolling on my part I lost 1 man to 14 ap2 wounds.

 

Yes i know assault termis are not the subject of this discussion

[Charlo]

Assuming the changes being made are:

2 Wounds

2 heavy weapons, 4 for squads of 10

Storm bolters changed to Salvo 3/5

 

What kind of points increase are we looking at here? I find costing things difficult, but I think 45 or 50 points per model would be fair

 

On the topic of gravturrions: 3 gravturrions with prescience once shot at my 7 assault terminators 5 of which had storm shields and Corbulo was in my squad. Due to some fantastic rolling on my part I lost 1 man to 14 ap2 wounds.

 

Yes i know assault termis are not the subject of this discussion

 

Same cost - Terminators are already 40 points each. The problem is that they are over-costed for what they bring, minimal damage output and underwhelming survivability.

 

40 is very expensive, compared to wolves for example, we pay 7 points for a power fist (arguably worse than a power weapon in some cases) and -1WS (because really CoF could be considered a baseline). They can also all purchase combi's as 5points. Bargain.

 

You could argue 2W pushes them over the edge, and maybe raising them to 45 would the the answer then. That could work, as you get a similar amont of survival/ output as three marines...

[Marvin_the_Martian]

You forgot grav as a counter. And it's a hard counter too.

 

Grav Cents/grav bikes would still leave a great gaping hole in a terminator unit.

 

You're right, I did forget grav. Thank you for pointing that out. I have a bias against using grav, and I admit that I completely overlooked it when doing that analysis.

 

I agree with Charlo though that terminators are currently overcosted and that giving them the upgrades without incurring a price increase would be reasonable.

 

Quick note on assault terminators: two wound terminators with 3++ would be a bit much for 40 points, yes, but then again, the rules for storm shields could always be changed back to being a 3+ invulnerable save only in close combat. That'd solve a lot of cheese problems anyways.

[Charlo]

Assault terminators would just simply go up in points a little, the "cost" of the Storm shield should double, as they would essentially see double the effectiveness of it as for having two wounds. Yeah not against lascannons but you get me.

 

The real problem is hen you get to the GK book.... If you give them 2W they are 33pt 2W terminators with psyker and force weapons. They'd need to be at least 35 IMO then.

[Ushtarador]

I kinda like to compare them with necron wraiths, as they are similarly costed. Now wraiths get 3 attacks S6 rending, 2 wounds, T5, move 12 ignore terrain and have a 2+ invulnerable save in the harvest formation!

Considering this, 2 wounds, T5 and 3 attacks base does not seem overpowered at all... they would be more choppy in close combat and have some ranged fire, but are less survivable against AP2 and a lot slower.

[evildrcheese]

The above post has got it bang-on. I appreciate we don't want to make them OP, but let's not hamstring ourselves and consider the 'fix' in the context of what already exists...

 

D

[Marvin_the_Martian]

Ugh...2+ invulnerable saves on wraiths are a thing?

The wraith comparison seems pretty valid, but take my word worth a grain of salt since the Necron players in my gaming group don't use them much, and I don't know too much about them besides what was presented above.

I did a bit of searching and came across this article on dakka in which someone mathhammers an assault between necron wraiths and current assault terminators http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/429119.page If you believe this guy's math, current assault terminators are a pretty equal match to unupgraded wraiths in CC. If we include our suggested upgrades for terminators, I think the extra wounds would probably make more of a difference than an extra point of toughness since the wraiths are pretty much just hoping for rends anyways. In this case, the extra point of toughness seems pretty justifiable.

I'm just not sure the extra point of toughness makes sense outside of the context of CC though. Even for wraiths. IMO, anything short of a monstrous creature and very select units should be instantly killed by STR 8 and above weaponry.

But if terminators need to go up by a wound and one point of toughness, then so be it. I think we're all desperately hoping that balanced 40k will stop being a pipe dream. I just hope that when terminators get the kind of treatment they deserve, that will be the end of all this stat inflation nonsense. There needs to be an inviolable gold standard in heavy infantry or 40k is never going to be the kind of strategy game we want it to be.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

The real problem is that GW isnt interested in the balance of the game or game fitting fluff unless it makes us buy more models. TDA will not be significantly improved unless they thought it would cause a big jump in sales. Unfortunately most of us already buy TDA even though its not super effective or own so much of it we wouldnt buy more than one new box just for the extra heavy weapons or something like that. GW rarely does anything to benefit models you already own and that already sell. Hence centurions instead of fixing TDA. Thats why I think the only way you will get better TDA os if something radical changes like adding Cataphract armor to 40k with huge stat boosts or theu give every mod in the squad an assault cannon. That way you are forced to buy tons of new, expensive models.

[Ushtarador]

 

 

Ugh...2+ invulnerable saves on wraiths are a thing?

 

3+ invul and 4+ RnP is equal to a 2+ invul :) also less prone to really bad luck since 2 rolls lower the variance..

Termies are a bit better than wraiths in killing power, but they are significantly less durable and they are a lot harder to actually GET into cc. It doesn't matter how choppy you are if you get shot or sliced before you can chop :/

 

Funny enough, cc centurions have T5 and 2 wounds, but they are even less survivable against AP2, still slow and even pricier - hence nobody fields them in a competitive meta. Also, they definitely look a lot less awesome than termies ^^

[AGPO]

The best fix to the ammount of AP2 out there would be to introduce the old WFB idea of a 1+ save, with a roll of a 1 always failing. That way only AP1 weapons would go through termie armour, but enough lasguns would still bring them down, which sould be true of anything IMO. Only problem is the lack of AP1 cc weapons which would potentially make CC termies overpowered.

[Charlo]

 

 

Funny enough, cc centurions have T5 and 2 wounds, but they are even less survivable against AP2, still slow and even pricier - hence nobody fields them in a competitive meta. Also, they definitely look a lot less awesome than termies ^^

 

 

True, but Centurions strike at full Initiative, that's the trade-off. They can put out S10 AP1 attacks on vehicles at I4 :O

[Mr Smith]

What about something really simple like making Storm Bolters Assault 3 instead of Assault 2?  Another thing could be to go back to 2nd Edition and give Terminators their Targeters back, letting them re-roll 1s To Hit or something like that.

[evildrcheese]

What about something really simple like making Storm Bolters Assault 3 instead of Assault 2? Another thing could be to go back to 2nd Edition and give Terminators their Targeters back, letting them re-roll 1s To Hit or something like that.

Whilst these would be nice little buffs they do too little to fix the problem of terminators being terrible.

 

D

[Bartali]

I think there's a lot of insight to be gained by trying to imagine what it would be like to play against toughness 5, 2 wound terminators, especially if they remain 200 points for a unit of 5. What would you take as Blood Angels to combat terminators with these stats? The reflexive answer would be vindicators since the demolisher cannon can instant-death toughness 5 multi-wound models. The second option would be massed plasma, but as we covered above, that's sub-optimal now that terminators will have two wounds each.

 

In my opinion, this train of thought illustrates not only why adding an extra toughness to terminators could be unbalancing, but also why playing against codexes with unbalanced units are really aggravating to play against (substitute "terminators" for wraithknights, riptides, etc.). 

 

Firstly, we don't KNOW that our opponent will take terminators, but there is always the possibility that if our opponent takes them, he/she will take multiple units of them.

Second, we know that if multiple units of terminators are taken, we will be put at a SERIOUS disadvantage. Failing to have an answer for this scenario means a very probable chance of defeat.

Third, the answers to this scenario in our codex are limited to very expensive units (the massed plasma option) that will take up a significant chunk of our army (> 1/3 at 1500 points) or units that don't synergize well with how our codex plays (vindicators).

 

To summarize, just the possibility of facing two units of terminators is enough to impose serious restrictions on our choices during the list building phase. That's not really fun for me as a player since it leads to less variety in the types of armies I play. 

 

Dealing with T5 2W should be a factor in every army list - Wraiths, Thunderwolves and Centurions (heck, even Attack Bikes squads or bike characters) are pretty common there days.