Kelborn Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Hey guys, I need your feedback and ideas. As I'm working on my Dark Knights, I came to the point where I need something like an arch-enemy for them. During the Great Crusade (the so called Nippon campaign) the Dark Knights fought against the traitorous Word Bearers and their corrupted auxiliary regiments. I'm not sure if they will defeat them completely or if some WB survived, swearing eternal vengeance. So those could be their arch-enemies. Problem is that I don't want to stretch this conflict for too long, boring the reader. "Oh... not again those freaking fanatics." Therefore I wrote some key facts I would like to use for this particular warband: - they own an ancient Ramilies-class Starfort; so corrupted as it is, the machine spirit transformed into an own being; instead of travelling controlled through the warp it appears randomly in the Nippon sector like the Tyrant's star or this ship mentioned in the Dark Heresy: Demon Hunter book which appears here and there and every planet near to it goes insane - they make use of some cults spread through the Nippon sector - as the Dark Knights were not able to destroy them completely by now, they held a deep grudge against them for terrorizing and menacing their home - they descend from one of the traitor legions as they are old enough to fight against the Dark Knights; furthermore I don't have the time to create a warband out of nothing and it would be easier to create one basing on a traitor legion Although I created the Black Hands, for me right now it doesn't feel right or suitable to use them. Bearing this in mind I have some thoughts of how this warband could be like: Thousand Sons; the Sons of Setech which is lead by a daemonprince of the same name; the try to find some specific artifacts to revive an ancient demon which was slain by the Dark Knights Word Bearers; the remaining forces of the Preachers of the Truth, bearing a deep grudge against the Dark Knights; they use several cults to infiltrate the realm of Yamatar and finally turn every single world into a daemonworld Death Guard; some legionnaires formed a small warband and seized control over this Starfort; during the centuries it appeared in the orbit of some planet of the yamatarian realm; they assaulted those worlds and took ressources and new followers for their cult with them I could use some xenos as well but I'm not familiar with them. My knowledge is restricted on Tau fluff and some bits of Eldar and Ork lore. Well, that's all by now. What do you think? Regards, Kelborn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314006-creating-an-enemy-need-some-feedback/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 A couple of points about lore first and foremost : - There was no Chaos Space Marines during the Great Crusade (perhaps you meant after the Horus Heresy during the Scouring ?), as the Great Crusade had all the Legions working together to expand the Imperium. - If your Chapter is a 2nd founding Chapter, it occurs after the Horus Heresy for sure. So if you mean for it that it is an old grudge, then the enemy will likely by a Traitor Legion and not a warband. Although, the Legions were big enough that each "chapter/company" within it had specific proficiencies to warrant a warbang. _____ Now, on to your questions ;) Well, first of al, in terms of narrative since you are going to use this enemy to cast a good light on your Chapter, what would you want that good light to be about ? It's easier to select and define an enemy in order to metaphorically show an obstacle that your Chapter will overcome, thus putting a good light on a particular aspect of your Chapter that you want to showcase. Then, in terms of conflict, you can either have it unfold as "competition" or as "subtitution". Meaning that if you want to show that your Chapter is awesome at tank warfare, then you might want to consider the Iron Warriors as an enemy. Beating them will definitely assert superiority in that domain, that's a competing narrative. If you want to go more for a "subtitution" approach, you'll want to find an enemy with a different specialty. Example : The Raven Guard is great at Stealth, you could have them beat the World Eaters in a stealthy way to showcase that superiority. So, find what you want to convey, and find an appropriate enemy to pick from that will help you convey that ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314006-creating-an-enemy-need-some-feedback/#findComment-4178244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 Oh yeah you're right. I meant legions, not warbands. Well to keep things short, the Dark Knights are descendants of the Raven Guard. Their combat doctrine is mostly like the Raven Guards. There is one specific differences as they use terror tactics to demoralize the enemy (most of all cults and lesser xenos races). This is because of a loyal Night Lord who joined them during the Nippon campaign (would take too long to explain everything right away). As a result of the Nippon campaign in which they fought alongside the yamatarian people, they have a strong sense of community like the Salamanders. To make it even shorter they are like this: Take the Raven Guard. Put the Salamanders love for their people in. Add the terror tactics of the Night Lords. Mix this and voila: Dark Knights! Following your advice I would need either a stealthy or a brutally charging enemy who in some kind of way uses civilians, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314006-creating-an-enemy-need-some-feedback/#findComment-4178268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Perils Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Hey guys, I need your feedback and ideas. As I'm working on my Dark Knights, I came to the point where I need something like an arch-enemy for them. During the Great Crusade (the so called Nippon campaign) the Dark Knights fought against the traitorous Word Bearers and their corrupted auxiliary regiments. I'm not sure if they will defeat them completely or if some WB survived, swearing eternal vengeance. So those could be their arch-enemies. Problem is that I don't want to stretch this conflict for too long, boring the reader. "Oh... not again those freaking fanatics." Therefore I wrote some key facts I would like to use for this particular warband: - they own an ancient Ramilies-class Starfort; so corrupted as it is, the machine spirit transformed into an own being; instead of travelling controlled through the warp it appears randomly in the Nippon sector like the Tyrant's star or this ship mentioned in the Dark Heresy: Demon Hunter book which appears here and there and every planet near to it goes insane - they make use of some cults spread through the Nippon sector - as the Dark Knights were not able to destroy them completely by now, they held a deep grudge against them for terrorizing and menacing their home - they descend from one of the traitor legions as they are old enough to fight against the Dark Knights; furthermore I don't have the time to create a warband out of nothing and it would be easier to create one basing on a traitor legion Although I created the Black Hands, for me right now it doesn't feel right or suitable to use them. Bearing this in mind I have some thoughts of how this warband could be like: Thousand Sons; the Sons of Setech which is lead by a daemonprince of the same name; the try to find some specific artifacts to revive an ancient demon which was slain by the Dark Knights Word Bearers; the remaining forces of the Preachers of the Truth, bearing a deep grudge against the Dark Knights; they use several cults to infiltrate the realm of Yamatar and finally turn every single world into a daemonworld Death Guard; some legionnaires formed a small warband and seized control over this Starfort; during the centuries it appeared in the orbit of some planet of the yamatarian realm; they assaulted those worlds and took ressources and new followers for their cult with them I could use some xenos as well but I'm not familiar with them. My knowledge is restricted on Tau fluff and some bits of Eldar and Ork lore. Well, that's all by now. What do you think? Regards, Kelborn Your enemy is definitely only going to be a warband : the traitor legions are nearly all subdivided into different companies/chapters/grand battalions/etc. that are now called by the collective name of warband for simplicities sake. If it were a full Legion, you could say goodbye to the Dark Knights before they were even founded. It doesn't actually have to be a traitor legion, it could also be a company (or greater) from a loyalist legion that turned traitor ? Daemons aren't killed by mortal men, they can pretty much at best be sent back to the warp from what I've understood. Their god though can absorb them back, effectively killing them. You can however kill a Daemon Prince, or at least his first incarnation... Anyway, I can't remember this story about your loyalist Night Lord, but have you thought about your enemy being the rest of his company so he doesn't appear out of nowhere ? As you say that the warband has to terrorise the sector, it would be logical. It would also be a nice story that the archenemy would be the opposite side of the same coin, since archenemies have often got points in common. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314006-creating-an-enemy-need-some-feedback/#findComment-4178284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 Allrighty them... Night Lords seem plausible. 8th company of the 8th legion... Would a Ramilies Starfort still be plausible or would it be over the top and I rather should use something smaller? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314006-creating-an-enemy-need-some-feedback/#findComment-4178381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Perils Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I suppose that in ten thousand years of terrorizing the imperium they might have found something like this, but it would be easier if the warband were the size of a chapter or a battalion rather than a company. This would also go some ways to explain why they wouldn't be destroyed by the Dark Knights early on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314006-creating-an-enemy-need-some-feedback/#findComment-4178539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 It really depends what you want to showcase for them ;) Their love for civilians ? Their stealthy ways ? Their terror tactics ? In that case, the antagonist must be something that puts your chosen aspect into perspective ;) What seems to be the paramount takeaway of your last post is the fact that they will protect civilians. Night Lords or Word Bearers seem to be interesting : Night Lords because their goal is to terrorize the population, Word Bearers because they use the populations like slaves for the Dark Gods as well as spread heresy. I think the Night Lords would be a bit more appropriate to be honest :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314006-creating-an-enemy-need-some-feedback/#findComment-4178656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 It really depends what you want to showcase for them Their love for civilians ? Their stealthy ways ? Their terror tactics ? In that case, the antagonist must be something that puts your chosen aspect into perspective What seems to be the paramount takeaway of your last post is the fact that they will protect civilians. Night Lords or Word Bearers seem to be interesting : Night Lords because their goal is to terrorize the population, Word Bearers because they use the populations like slaves for the Dark Gods as well as spread heresy. I think the Night Lords would be a bit more appropriate to be honest Yeah Night Lords would fit the most. I allready have some plot ideas concerning my loyal Night Lord and his former company. And by company I don't mean 100 brothers. It will rather be something like a great compayn consisting of several hundred legionnaires. They conquered the Ramilies Starfort in a earlier campaign and they were ordered to have a look after the missing Preachers of the Truth. After arriving in the Nippon sector they abandon their orders and start to harass the entire sector. During the final battle against the loyalist forces, their former brother lead a boarding action which nearly destroyed the Starforts warp engine. Because of a heavy malfunction the whole Starfort does a warpjump. Lacking the ability to control the engines, the Night Lords are not able to fall back into mortal realm. In the course of time the warp starts to change them and the whole Starfort. Nowadays they randomly spawn in the Nippon sector, spreading terror and death upon the world of Yamatar. Would that be comprehensible? Furthermore I would like to ask you if I could create a small realm of chaos inside the Nippon sector. Nothing big like the Maelstrom but is it possible to separate one system through a warp storm and use this particular system as a staging area for all kind of chaos worshippers? Or would a starcluster or nebula (with only a handful of planets in it) full of xenos, like Orcs or Necrons would make more sense? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314006-creating-an-enemy-need-some-feedback/#findComment-4179380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Furthermore I would like to ask you if I could create a small realm of chaos inside the Nippon sector. Nothing big like the Maelstrom but is it possible to separate one system through a warp storm and use this particular system as a staging area for all kind of chaos worshippers? That is possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314006-creating-an-enemy-need-some-feedback/#findComment-4179431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulJam Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Given the previous challenge, can you possibly use someone else's group as your nemesis ? I don't remember any articles in particular as being totally suited but might there be something in there that can be expanded or retrofluffed. [edit: most of the VI challenge were later time frame.] Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314006-creating-an-enemy-need-some-feedback/#findComment-4179600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted October 1, 2015 Author Share Posted October 1, 2015 Question: Currently I'm reading the HH Book 5: Tempest I really like the described Word Bearers during the Battle of Calth. Is it be possible to use for example a Word Bearer Diabolist as the leader of my Preachers of Truth chapter? Or is it canon that all mutated WBs were part of the Ultramar invasion? If not...hell that would give me a whole lot of possibilities to work on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314006-creating-an-enemy-need-some-feedback/#findComment-4185437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Perils Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Hey, who cares about canon ? I don't know all that much about WBs really, but I can't see a problem to some mutants/Gal Vorbak going here there and everywhere... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314006-creating-an-enemy-need-some-feedback/#findComment-4186493 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted October 2, 2015 Author Share Posted October 2, 2015 Sounds good. ;) What about their name? Their original chapter name is Preachers of Truth. I'm not quite sure if it still fits after establishing their own realm within the Dreadstars and fully pledge themselves to chaos. I had something like Brotherhood of Kain in mind but I guess that it would rather fit a chaos cult. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314006-creating-an-enemy-need-some-feedback/#findComment-4186560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 Preachers of the Truth will still work. Their mission is the same, the truth has just changed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314006-creating-an-enemy-need-some-feedback/#findComment-4187033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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