Advantage pre-Heresy TSons had over their peers?

[b1soul]

How great was the advantage granted by their psychic power? Obviously the cost was unpredictable and rapid mutation.

 

This thread is a spin-off from the now closed “best of each legion” thread.

 

TSons got thrown into the mix, and there was a lively discussion over how much of an advantage pre-Heresy TSons enjoyed as a result of their psychic powers. This was all in the context of deciding who was the best warrior in each legion (namely, who was the best close combat champion of each legion)

 

My personal opinion is that Ahriman, Phosis T’kar, Hathor Maat, Auramagma, etc. (along with all of the powerful non-TSon Librarians) would likely squash any non-psychic marine in a 1v1 contest. Deprived of their psychic powers, they would likely get squashed by the likes of Sigismund, Khârn, Lucius, Abaddon etc. Therefore, they belong in a separate category. However, I would rank them as the most powerful beings in the Legiones Astartes apart from the primarchs themselves.

 

Also, I believe that man-for-man (or perhaps squad-for-squad) the most powerful marines during the Heresy era were the Thousand Sons. They were also the most vulnerable to mutation, which was the price of having such tremendous psychic powers. However, I’m a bit uncertain as to whether the TSons was essentially a legion of librarians (i.e. even those considered to have moderate/average psychic ability by TSon standards would be considered librarians by the standards of other legions) or whether most TSons were only slightly psychic and only the select few functioned as librarians.

 

What do you guys think?

 

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Would also like to continue the discussion below…

 

SkimaskMohawk, on 22 Sept 2015, 04:07 PM - 09:24 AM, said:

 

1. Woops, was a while since I read the story and got guys confused . The guy who died to Khârn was arvida's captain so it kind of just furthers my point that combat enhancing powers are what gives an edge, not just having psychic powers giving you a trump over everything.

 

2. The thousand sons used their powers instead of shooting, while the space wolves were charging them (not shooting). If it were a firefight and the sons used their powers to break the deadlock then I'd see your point

 

3. “Anyway, psychic powers aren't an insta-win button” What I've been saying the entire time lol.

 

My response:

 

1. If your point is that brute force is capable of overcoming psychic powers, Khârn vs. Arvida’s captain is a really bad example. Arvida’s captain relied on telepathy. Khârn was batsh*t insane and therefore effectively immune to Arvida’s telepathy. In other words, Khârn’s insanity functioned as a resistance to psychic mind intrusion. Most marines are relatively sane compared to Khârn and would therefore be vulnerable to a TSon’s mind attacks. I don’t think any marines are resistant to telekinesis, warp fire/lightning, biomancy, etc. In the absence of any special resistance, I would say psychic powers are much deadlier than brute strength or berserker fury or whatnot.

 

2. Erm…had the TSons and Wolves been shooting at each other, the TSons would have had kine shields, telekinesis, precog, warp fire, biomancy, etc. on top of their ability to aim and fire bolters. Psychic powers would have been just as much of an advantage in a shooting engagement as it was against the charging Wolves. Just because the TSons and the Wolves didn’t actually shoot at each other…doesn’t change the fact that had a firefight broken out, the TSons’ psychic powers would’ve come into play and provided a massive advantage.

 

3. They’re not an insta-win button, but they are a very powerful advantage. I would say in many (but not all) situations, they would function as a trump card. You seem to be implying that a bit of extra skill or brute strength would be enough to overcome psychic powers. I would have to disagree. Perhaps non-psychic marines have a better chance against psychic marines who specialize in the more subtle arts (telepathy and precog). Against heavily combat-oriented TSons or non-TSon librarians, a non-psychic marine would have almost no way to counter telekinesis, biomancy, warp lightning, blood-boil etc.

 

Another example would be when the Night Lord psyker Ruven zaps a bunch of Ultramarine successors. Psychic powers are very hard to overcome when you’re a non-psyker. Decent psychic powers grant their wielder a lot more than a mere "edge".

[SkimaskMohawk]

I don't think you were really understanding my point.

 

1. My point was simply having powers aren't enough to make you trump non psykers. They need to be combat oriented to really give an edge.

2. why didn't they shoot and use powers then? They easily could have, yet they just used powers. In that context, where the wolves literally just rushed them to fight them in melee, it literally just means they can win with ranged vs melee. Really nothing special.

3. Yea what I was trying to say in the other thread was that combat and offense focused powers are what give an advantage, which is why kor phaeron got so strong and why the tsons champion dropped the ball a bit because mind reading doesn't mean he'd be able to match the speed of lucy

 

 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

Do we know for a fact every thousand son was psychic? Or just the officers? In the older lore didn't the rubric turn non-psychic legionaries into rubricae?

[GhostMalone]

It is stated that they all show some sign of psychic power it could be something as simple as dreaming the future or sensing enemy positions.

 

It's not always I can hurl fireballs and read minds.

 

Zahriel was a good example he could see like an X ray reach in and kill a calabanite lion.

 

Not all powers have to be categorized into biomancy pyromancy telekinesis etc

[Marshal Rohr]

Where is it stated?

[LordBlades]

While the whole rubric stuff seems to indicate not every Thousand Son was a psyker, I think most squads had enough to function as a psychic combat force. In 'A Thousand Sons', one of the remembrances accompanies a squad on the battlefield, which makes extensive use of powers (kine shields, divinations, telepathy etc.) and from the way it's written, it seems to be how all Thousand Sons usually fight.

[Marshal Rohr]

You can't have a legion of 90K plus psykers, all draw from one planet. That's... Statistically impossible. Legionary recruitment attrition rates alone make it highly improbable.

 

 

What's so damn wrong with the Thousand Sons being a normal legion with psychic officers?

[GhostMalone]

It's stated in thousand sons that all recruits either showed latent or dull psychic abilities after implantation.

 

And Prospero was literally a world of psykers.

 

A him an even stated iirc that his brother had no 0 such in potential till after implantation and this in turn accelerated the flesh change.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm pretty sure that the sons have a way smaller legion force than the others, but that was before the inconsistencies started

[Leif Bearclaw]

And yet the Rubric fluff specifically states that "Less than 100 of the Thousand Sons who possessed psychic powers had them greatly augmented; however, the majority of the Legion's Marines, who had little or no psychic ability, had their physical bodies reduced to dust, trapping their spirits in their armour, the joints of which were sealed magically and allowed the spirits no way of escaping." (lexicanum, sources Battle for the Fang & 4th C:CSM).

 

Most of the XV were not different from any other Legion's line troopers. It was only their upper echelons/cults that had a psychic advantage. Also bear in mind, especially when we're talking pre-Heresy, they simply aren't as powerful as you might think. Prospero is a poor representation of their GC-level of psychic might, as they specifically draw too much power (more than they usually do) in that desperate last stand, hence level of flesh change we see in ATS (which was previously thought to have been 'cured').

 

Just like the Wolves, the Sons aren't 'Marines +1', any more than the Ultras, BAs or WEs. They're 'Marines, Egyptian Sorcerer Theme, tragic backstory topping'. That's all.

[GhostMalone]

Well we need to remember stuff in 40k is usually a mixture of inconsistencies mixed with lies and truth

[SkimaskMohawk]

That's the biggest problem when it comes to trying to have a discussion about fluff. If one is going to claim that everything is biased and twisted by time and misconstrued then they can't use anything as an argument for their views. It's kind of like dismissing actions performed in the novels as bad writing or as plot stupidity, unfortunately it still happened.

[b1soul]

Did the Rubric kill non-psykers/weak psykers...or did it kill psykers who just weren't exceptional by TSon standards? Also...if many TSons were only weak psykers, would that mean TSon squads functioned like GK squads, i.e. a relatively strong psychic sergeant pools and guides the psychic power of the squad members?

 

I don't think you were really understanding my point.

 

1. My point was simply having powers aren't enough to make you trump non psykers. They need to be combat oriented to really give an edge.

2. why didn't they shoot and use powers then? They easily could have, yet they just used powers. In that context, where the wolves literally just rushed them to fight them in melee, it literally just means they can win with ranged vs melee. Really nothing special.

3. Yea what I was trying to say in the other thread was that combat and offense focused powers are what give an advantage, which is why kor phaeron got so strong and why the tsons champion dropped the ball a bit because mind reading doesn't mean he'd be able to match the speed of lucy

1. My point is...psychic powers, unless very weak, are more than just an edge, especially if your psychic powers are of the overtly destructive combat-oriented variety, but even precog or mind-reading/manipulation would be a massive advantage. Note that a big advantage in one area does not necessarily mean a net advantage.

 

A psychic marine capable of warp lightning could be wearing robes and his non-psychic opponent could be wearing terminator armour with an iron halo.

 

A psychic swordsman with precog could suffer from mediocre speed, endurance, and technique...but his precog might allow him to fight on equal terms with otherwise much superior opponents.

 

The whole idea is that "all other things being equal", a combat psyker enjoys a big advantage, not just a slight edge, over a non-psyker

 

2. What? The special part is that the TSons have game-breaking ranged attacks even without ammunition or guns.

 

To answer your question, the TSons employed non-lethal force to disable the Wolves, who probably wanted to butcher the TSons with their blades. This was probably deeply humiliating for the Wolves involved but good away to avoid killing fellow Astartes. Had the TSons opened fire with bolters, some Wolves would have died. That would be escalating the situation. The TSons did the opposite be disabling their foes and deescalating/ending the encounter with no Wolf casualties.

 

If you are implying that the TSons can't shoot while using psychic powers...1. I would have to disagree , 2. Kine shields, biomancy, warp fire, telekinesis are much more effective than bolters. TSons are capable of dismanting dreadnoughts, smashing Custodes jetbikes with telekinesis. That's why the TSons prefer using psychic powers to using bolters. Psychic powers are vastly more effective under most circumstances.

 

3. I would still say mind-reading is a massive bonus to have, even if it doesn't involve frying your opponent to a crisp or turning your opponent inside out. Without precog or mind-reading (I am not sure which one Sanakht uses), Lucy probably would have stomped Sanakht. With it, Sanakht is able to fight on pretty even terms with arguably the best swordsman among the traitor legions.

 

Think of it this way...a psychic Lucy with precog would stomp a non-psychic Lucy without precog.

[Balthamal]

And yet the Rubric fluff specifically states that "Less than 100 of the Thousand Sons who possessed psychic powers had them greatly augmented; however, the majority of the Legion's Marines, who had little or no psychic ability, had their physical bodies reduced to dust, trapping their spirits in their armour, the joints of which were sealed magically and allowed the spirits no way of escaping." (lexicanum, sources Battle for the Fang & 4th C:CSM).

 

Most of the XV were not different from any other Legion's line troopers. It was only their upper echelons/cults that had a psychic advantage. Also bear in mind, especially when we're talking pre-Heresy, they simply aren't as powerful as you might think. Prospero is a poor representation of their GC-level of psychic might, as they specifically draw too much power (more than they usually do) in that desperate last stand, hence level of flesh change we see in ATS (which was previously thought to have been 'cured').

 

Just like the Wolves, the Sons aren't 'Marines +1', any more than the Ultras, BAs or WEs. They're 'Marines, Egyptian Sorcerer Theme, tragic backstory topping'. That's all.

 

I'd assume there's more than 100 who survived the Rubric given how many of them make some form of appearance in the Ahriman trilogy. Whether that's a deliberate contradiction or not, who knows. Maybe it's deliberately ambiguous and not differentiating between those who were exiled (which is a damn large group we know now) or stayed loyal. 

 

As for the point about the Legion as a whole though, spot on. ATS specifically makes mention of the fact that command rank within the Legion was dependent not only on martial skill but also on psychic mastery. Same with promotion to the Sekhemet. It's likely that given the high instance of psychic potential within the population of Prospero and the effect of Magnus' gene seed the vast majority of the Legion were latent psykers at least but simply never fully developed their powers. If every single one of them was a powerful sorcerer then they wouldn't have been gutted by the Rubric and, let's be honest, if they were indeed a Legion of 40-50k of powerful psykers then the wolves wouldn't have beaten them. 

 

We know that the ranking officers all had psychic ability (very strong psychic ability true) whilst further down the chain it becomes a bit more of a grey area. The first company had some expression of psychic powers, likely broken down to the cult lines. I'm guessing here but I'd imagine that squad sergeants had the most basic powers and be able to tap into the latent strength of the squad, a true brotherhood of psykers type deal. At the very least, they'd have enough to receive psychic communication clearly and possibly relay back but that's all hypothetical until if/when we get something in writing that clarifies it further.

[b1soul]

My question is ...according to the current fluff, were the Rubric marines just less powerful by TSon standards (having little psychic power for a TSon might still mean you would be a low-level Libarian in another legion)...or were Rubric marines literally non-psychic or almost non-psychic.

 

On a psyker scale of 0 to 100, I would be surprised if 90% of the TSons fell between 0 to 10...but that seems to be what the quote is saying.

[Fire Golem]

 

 

And yet the Rubric fluff specifically states that "Less than 100 of the Thousand Sons who possessed psychic powers had them greatly augmented; however, the majority of the Legion's Marines, who had little or no psychic ability, had their physical bodies reduced to dust, trapping their spirits in their armour, the joints of which were sealed magically and allowed the spirits no way of escaping." (lexicanum, sources Battle for the Fang & 4th C:CSM).

 

Most of the XV were not different from any other Legion's line troopers. It was only their upper echelons/cults that had a psychic advantage. Also bear in mind, especially when we're talking pre-Heresy, they simply aren't as powerful as you might think. Prospero is a poor representation of their GC-level of psychic might, as they specifically draw too much power (more than they usually do) in that desperate last stand, hence level of flesh change we see in ATS (which was previously thought to have been 'cured').

 

Just like the Wolves, the Sons aren't 'Marines +1', any more than the Ultras, BAs or WEs. They're 'Marines, Egyptian Sorcerer Theme, tragic backstory topping'. That's all.

I'd assume there's more than 100 who survived the Rubric given how many of them make some form of appearance in the Ahriman trilogy. Whether that's a deliberate contradiction or not, who knows. Maybe it's deliberately ambiguous and not differentiating between those who were exiled (which is a damn large group we know now) or stayed loyal.

I think the '100 survived the Rubric' comes from before Laurie Golding/Alan Bligh increased the numbers of all the legions. So the Thousand Sons used to be 1000 strong, and 100 survived the rubric, so 1/10. But now we know the 10kSons are at least 80,000 (Extermination states that the RG were the smallest legion after the Battle of Gate 42 at 80,000 legionnaires). So I'm assuming 1/10 survived the rubric still, so depending on the actual size of the 10k sons and how many survived til the Rubric was cast, I suppose there could be as few as 100 (do we know how many Sons survived Prospero?)

[Doctor Perils]

It is stated that they all show some sign of psychic power it could be something as simple as dreaming the future or sensing enemy positions.

It's not always I can hurl fireballs and read minds.

Zahriel was a good example he could see like an X ray reach in and kill a calabanite lion.

Not all powers have to be categorized into biomancy pyromancy telekinesis etc

I can't say anything as to the statement about all of the thousand sons being psykers (latent or not), but I don't know if Zahariel is such a great example, as he clearly becomes a librarian, perhaps one of the strongest of the librarians of the First Legion. What's more, he's a dark angel, not a thousand son (I probably didn't understand your point)

My question is ...according to the current fluff, were the Rubric marines just less powerful by TSon standards (having little psychic power for a TSon might still mean you would be a low-level Libarian in another legion)...or were Rubric marines literally non-psychic or almost non-psychic.

On a psyker scale of 0 to 100, I would be surprised if 90% of the TSons fell between 0 to 10...but that seems to be what the quote is saying.

Why would this surprise you ? I'd probably bump the number to 0 to 20, but I still think that the majority of the Thousand Sons weren't really psykers psykers, but at least everything above sergeant, and probably any veteran, would be strong enough to manifest pretty large powers. I really see the bulk of the Legion having the same kind of composition as the Rubrik squads in 40k: one psyker "sergeant" leading a squad of non-psykers, the sergeant having about the same power as a lexicanier or a codicier in the other legions (well, PsyMastery of 1), and the higher officers being stronger than their counterparts.

Do we know if the Tsons had chaplains ?

And yet the Rubric fluff specifically states that "Less than 100 of the Thousand Sons who possessed psychic powers had them greatly augmented; however, the majority of the Legion's Marines, who had little or no psychic ability, had their physical bodies reduced to dust, trapping their spirits in their armour, the joints of which were sealed magically and allowed the spirits no way of escaping." (lexicanum, sources Battle for the Fang & 4th C:CSM).

Most of the XV were not different from any other Legion's line troopers. It was only their upper echelons/cults that had a psychic advantage. Also bear in mind, especially when we're talking pre-Heresy, they simply aren't as powerful as you might think. Prospero is a poor representation of their GC-level of psychic might, as they specifically draw too much power (more than they usually do) in that desperate last stand, hence level of flesh change we see in ATS (which was previously thought to have been 'cured').

Just like the Wolves, the Sons aren't 'Marines +1', any more than the Ultras, BAs or WEs. They're 'Marines, Egyptian Sorcerer Theme, tragic backstory topping'. That's all.

I'd assume there's more than 100 who survived the Rubric given how many of them make some form of appearance in the Ahriman trilogy. Whether that's a deliberate contradiction or not, who knows. Maybe it's deliberately ambiguous and not differentiating between those who were exiled (which is a damn large group we know now) or stayed loyal.

I think the '100 survived the Rubric' comes from before Laurie Golding/Alan Bligh increased the numbers of all the legions. So the Thousand Sons used to be 1000 strong, and 100 survived the rubric, so 1/10. But now we know the 10kSons are at least 80,000 (Extermination states that the RG were the smallest legion after the Battle of Gate 42 at 80,000 legionnaires). So I'm assuming 1/10 survived the rubric still, so depending on the actual size of the 10k sons and how many survived til the Rubric was cast, I suppose there could be as few as 100 (do we know how many Sons survived Prospero?)

I think that the quote may be slightly misleading: sure it says that 100 had their powers enhanced, and the majority became Rubrikae, but their could be a load of others in between that didn't have their powers enhanced but that didn't turn into Rubrikae: these would probably be the leaders of the Rubrikae squads in 40k, still psykers but not immensly strong psykers.

[Daemon2027]

If you ever find yourself In a situation where you need constantly mutating astartes jelly then I think you want to call the Thousand Sons. Tad situational I know....

[Marshal Rohr]

1KSons are a larger legion than the Raven Guard....

[LordBlades]

Is there any mention anywhere in the Horus Heresy era fluff of a Thousand Sons officer that was NOT a psyker?

 

All I recall were.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@b1soul Yea, you really aren't reading what I have to say and are just repeating yourself

[Icarus1138]

Information on the Thousand Sons varies and contradicts itself, so let's look at the more recent fluff and use some reasoning.

 

In the HH novels we have an example of a squad of Thousand Sons mixing and matching their powers to great effect on the battlefield. I think it's reasonable to assume it wasn't a squad of Librarians, though it certainly could have been a veteran unit. I'm sure some TS marines were not psykers, but the idea that the average TS was as psychically active as the average Astartes doesn't seem to fit. In their HH novel, don't we have examples of Prosperine society having many signs of psychic activity among the normal populace? If that's their recruiting pool, it's easy to believe actual marines would at the least be able to contribute to squad powers like the Gray Knights do (I know it's Grey Knights but I'm American, dammit). In one of the FW HH books, doesn't it mention a squad serving as diplomatic guards noticed that their hosts were using psychic powers on the Imperial delegation? That seems to imply a line squad of troopers has at least a base level of sensitivity. I think that it's a logical conclusion that the 15th Legion was, man for man, more psychically powerful than the Grey Knights. This is based on their recruiting pool having a very high percentage of psykers (I know the GK's only recruit psykers) combined with the effect of having Magnus' gene-seed to enhance those powers.

 

As far as numbers go, I would be very surprised if they end up being more numerous than the Raven Guard. I know the quote in question, but I'd be shocked if that stands. The novel A Thousand Sons puts the Legion at 10,000 marines, which sounds about right to me. Given that the Legion was combat effective and was able to put a serious dent in the Space Wolves while the Wolves had the element of surprise, extremely powerful allies on the field including dedicated psyker hunters, and at least a 5 to 1 numerical advantage, I'd say the TS were the most effective Legion assuming equal numbers, which of course they never did have.

[Marshal Rohr]

You guys all understand if the 1KSons were the 'best' legion because of their psychic powers we would've heard about it by now, right?

 

 

From almost everything written, the 1KSons are actually a huge waste of space as a legion. They spent all their time studying the arcane. Hell if Lorgar wasn't so damn bad at being a general prior to Monarchia, the 1KSons would easily be next in line.

[Icarus1138]

Marshal Rohr, no one has said or proposed that they were the "best" legion, as if that were a standard of measurement. This discussion is over how wide-spread psychic ability was in the legion, and what kind of advantage that translates into.

 

As for being a huge waste of space, I'm not sure that can be usefully discussed. I would point out that Heresy fluff has been massively updated in the last few years, with many legions getting quite a bit of detail and some old information being changed. The Thousand Sons haven't received as much focus yet, but I imagine they'll get a similar update in their FW book at the very least. All we know is that they did, in fact, find time to fight in the Great Crusade and didn't spend "all their time studying the arcane". 

[Kol Saresk]

Is there any mention anywhere in the Horus Heresy era fluff of a Thousand Sons officer that was NOT a psyker?

 

All I recall were.

Sobek, that captain who was under Ahriman.