Advantage pre-Heresy TSons had over their peers?

[depthcharge12]

I think it was less of an OP ability as it was more of a force multiplier. But with that in mind, it also means each loss was felt more.

 

As for their combat action, yeah it seems they haven't done much at this point, but it'll change by the time the Prospero book comes out. They were still receiving deployment orders from big E and likely Horus. And legions don't ignore that unless you're RG and under Corax, who hates Horus' guts.

[Icarus1138]

Not only would each loss be felt more on the battlefield, but I imagine the training requirements in the XVth were the most demanding of any legion. At the very least, even barely-psychic troopers would need training to keep their activity locked down so it didn't have side effects or bleed over into the stuff being done by other squads or Librarians. That's in addition to all the normal skills an Astartes would need. It's also very likely that non-combat training was given to every marine as a result of the TS culture. I wouldn't be surprised if their basic training included history, philosophy, and other non-essential* and time-intensive topics that other legions would skip.

 

*Not essential to their calling as soldiers, I'm sure they'd call it essential to their calling as enlightened humans.

[Leif Bearclaw]

As far as numbers go, I would be very surprised if they end up being more numerous than the Raven Guard. I know the quote in question, but I'd be shocked if that stands.

Why? FW aren't idiots. Bligh has written that the RG were the smallest at approx 81,000 pre-heresy. I think we can give him enough credit to not have forgotten that the Sons existed when he wrote that.

 

 

at least a 5 to 1 numerical advantage

Got any kind of source for that? I can't recall either ATS or PB giving a number for the size of the VI at Prospero. Quite frankly, that would make the VI incredibly large at 50,000 strong. Remember, these numbers are from before the Legions ballooned to the 100-200k average we have know (with scale increasing by around an order of magnitude).

[Marshal Rohr]

Marshal Rohr, no one has said or proposed that they were the "best" legion, as if that were a standard of measurement. This discussion is over how wide-spread psychic ability was in the legion, and what kind of advantage that translates into.

 

As for being a huge waste of space, I'm not sure that can be usefully discussed. I would point out that Heresy fluff has been massively updated in the last few years, with many legions getting quite a bit of detail and some old information being changed. The Thousand Sons haven't received as much focus yet, but I imagine they'll get a similar update in their FW book at the very least. All we know is that they did, in fact, find time to fight in the Great Crusade and didn't spend "all their time studying the arcane".

IIRC, Ahriman whines about being created for war. Can anyone name for me a single famous 1KSon engagement that wasn't Shrike or the Eldar World? They weren't even the major players at Shrike. The 1KSons spent the AoD doing nothing besides hiding in the warp.

 

At least the Word Bearers had 40 years of ass kicking to redeem themselves.

[depthcharge12]

I imagine the demographics to be as such (until Lord Bligh gives us finality):

 

100,000 TS legionaries - pretty much all the original legion numbers were multiplied by 10

 

- Less than 1,000 ML3/higher level psykers

 

- About 10,000 mid tier psykers anywhere from ML1-2 (ML just used as a reference here)

 

- The rest, about 89,000, have a weaker ML1 or lower

 

 

This leaves about 11% with actual, usable psychic powers. About 1 in ten XVth legionaries would have a tangible psychic skill, making them generally leaders of squads and cult initiates. The higher 1% are heads of Cults, Scarab Occult, or Centurions in a legion where psychic talent pretty much gives you pedigree. I'm sure there will be non psychic leaders, but it would be an underwhelming minority according to the fluff we have now.

[Fire Golem]

As far as numbers go, I would be very surprised if they end up being more numerous than the Raven Guard. I know the quote in question, but I'd be shocked if that stands. The novel A Thousand Sons puts the Legion at 10,000 marines, which sounds about right to me. Given that the Legion was combat effective and was able to put a serious dent in the Space Wolves while the Wolves had the element of surprise, extremely powerful allies on the field including dedicated psyker hunters, and at least a 5 to 1 numerical advantage, I'd say the TS were the most effective Legion assuming equal numbers, which of course they never did have.

Laurie Golding and Alan Bligh worked out all the legion sizes and numbers and everything when Alan started the FW books to make sure the numbers are all correct and nothing contradicts things, so the numbers in the FW books are correct. That's why some things like numbers have been changed in the hardback novels so they match the stuff they decided on. Unless they forgot the TS existed when they did that, they are a bigger legion than the RG were at that point with more than 80,000 legionnaires.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Psykers tend to spend a lot less time in the cage than your average marine. While their power might give them an edge, that edge makes up for a lesser martial training overall.
 

It is also important to note that a space marine's armour does provide protection against the raw damage of most psyker attacks just as it does against bolter rounds. Furthermore, the willpower of the defender can also negate psyker attacks, they can also fail to manifest and can backfire, as is well documented, even in the heresy.

 

Otherwise, Loken would have never defeated Samus.

[LordBlades]

Regarding Thousand Sons effectiveness in the Crusade, there's a scene in ThevFirst Heretic where Magnus has a chat with Lorgar on Colchis and tells him that despite also being scholars, the Thousand Sons still have a respectable number of compliances, unlike the Word Bearers. I don't think it's likely Magnus could lie here and Lorgar would be unaware of it, so I don't think the Thousand Sons were in any way subpar in the Great Crusade.

[depthcharge12]

Regarding Thousand Sons effectiveness in the Crusade, there's a scene in ThevFirst Heretic where Magnus has a chat with Lorgar on Colchis and tells him that despite also being scholars, the Thousand Sons still have a respectable number of compliances, unlike the Word Bearers. I don't think it's likely Magnus could lie here and Lorgar would be unaware of it, so I don't think the Thousand Sons were in any way subpar in the Great Crusade.

Yeah I don't think it wise to judge a whole legion's campaign performance purely on a book that was done...how many years ago?

 

They might've also had less to do since they could do Jedi mind tricks :P

[Kol Saresk]

 

Regarding Thousand Sons effectiveness in the Crusade, there's a scene in ThevFirst Heretic where Magnus has a chat with Lorgar on Colchis and tells him that despite also being scholars, the Thousand Sons still have a respectable number of compliances, unlike the Word Bearers. I don't think it's likely Magnus could lie here and Lorgar would be unaware of it, so I don't think the Thousand Sons were in any way subpar in the Great Crusade.

Yeah I don't think it wise to judge a whole legion's campaign performance purely on a book that was done...how many years ago?

 

They might've also had less to do since they could do Jedi mind tricks :P

We should also take into consideration that one of the reasons the Word Bearers was punished was that they were slow at leaving their compliances and moving onto new ones.

 

Should speak volumes about what went on unsaid behind the scenes where the XV Legion was concerned.

[DarKnight]

slight aside, but do you fellows know if any of the Forge World releases are just the fluff about the 30K legions? Like are the red books fluff and rules or can the fluff only be found in the full, leatherbound releases? Thanks

[Doctor Perils]

The red books are only the rules, which is part of what makes them practical. Though the big books are really nice (I mean really nice), they are very expensive, and I also wish Forge World sold a "lite" version

[DarKnight]

The red books are only the rules, which is part of what makes them practical. Though the big books are really nice (I mean really nice), they are very expensive, and I also wish Forge World sold a "lite" version

Figured it was something like this. Thanks bro.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

If a thread gets closed, don't start a new one on the same topic. Even before the end of the first page, this has already descended into useless wheel-spinning and bickering.

 

Don't open another one.

 

http://i.imgur.com/u9yQtVs.gif