Knight castigator vs Knight Warden

[sedobren]

Hello to you all. I apologize if this thing has already been discussed, but i can't seem to find anything on the internet posted after the release of the new Imperial knights Codex.

So the question is pretty straightforward: which one of these two knights is more adaptable?

 

I'll be using it in an oathsworn detachment alongside a gray knight Nemesis strike force (2 librarians, 2 x7 terminators, 2 dreadknight and draigo), in a monthly Warhammer league so the main issue here is the fact that the warden has 2 shooting weapons (so shoot and charge at 2 different enemies), while castigator's twin linked one could be somewhat effective even against flyer as a makeshift AA guy.

 

I'll also be using the same (castigator's) model , so I am not considering look at all, because it will be a bad ass whatever!

 

Thank you!

Edited September 23, 2015 by sedobren

[Lucien Eilam]

The Warden has 3 guns as standard. There's a heavy flamer under the cannon.

 

I prefer the Warden. I think the Avenger gatling cannon is better than the Castigator bolt cannon; 4 more shots and rending is a good trade for +1S and twin-linked. The Castigator is better in melee if it gets mobbed, but you shouldn't be letting that happen in the first place, and the Warden's Destroyer is better the rest of the time.

 

The Warden also has access to carapace weapons, which the Cerastus Knights don't.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Lucien Eilam

[sedobren]

Yep exactly, even better.

The warden seems like more suited in a general role, i am also thinking about the paladin actually.

[Frater Cornelius]

Castigator has its niche in killing Invisible units due to his I2 auto hits. If you do not need to kill hordes or invisible stuff, the generalist Warden is a tad better.

[jeffersonian000]

Invisible dies to Stomps, regardless of which Knight chassis you run. The Warden is the best generalist Knight in the game, beating out the Paladin in every way except range. The Castigator still makes the better anti-air Knight in 30k Knight armies, though.

 

SJ

[Frater Cornelius]

You still need a 6 to make most out of Stomps. By then, the usual S10 in Invisible units will have torn you apart. Castogator Tempest happens at I2 and is at S10 and every wound causes another hit (FAQd by FW). That is a fool-proof way of killing Invisible stars. Close to not randomness. Edited September 23, 2015 by Immersturm

[jeffersonian000]

If you say so. Stomps work fine for me.

 

SJ

[Targetlock]

jump up and down until you hear squishy noises hehe

 

i would go for the warden myself, more options plus a carapace weapon.

[sedobren]

Then i'll definitively go with the warden. I still don't think that carapace weapons are good though (maybe excluded the Icarus in a Knight heavy list), since for 30+ points i can add a lot of things in my list or plainly replace the warden with a knight Lancer!

[jeffersonian000]

The Stormspear Launcher has a higher chance of hurting a flyer than the Icarus does, oddly enough. Some day GW will read their own rules.

 

SJ

[CommodusXIII]

How did you reach that conclusion?

[Kilofix]

Warden is better at killing lots of little mobs at range.

 

Castigator is better at killing lots of little mobs in close combat.

[Lucien Eilam]

How did you reach that conclusion?

 

By only running the numbers for winged hive tyrants, maybe?

 

The Stormspear is slightly better than the Icarus versus flying monstrous creatures with 3+ saves, but it's practically a rounding error.

 

It's much worse versus any other sort of flyer.

[CommodusXIII]

I didn't know if there was somethig I wasn't seeing - I haven't added either to my arsenal yet, so my anti-Flyer tactics have revolved around ADLs and furtively spraying heavy stubber rounds.

The Icarus averages 1.8 hits per volley, the Stormspear only 0.5. The difference in strength is negligable and neither AP counts for anything. Add in a free an early round of shooting thanks to Interceptor and the winner appears to be clear.

 

EDIT:  Clarified.  Thanks, Lucien!

Edited September 25, 2015 by CommodusXIII

[Lucien Eilam]

Add in a free round of shooting thanks to Interceptor

 

It's not really free, just brought forward. Remember the gun can't be used in the subsequent shooting phase.

[jeffersonian000]

How did you reach that conclusion?

Math. Three S8 shots at BS1 have a better chance of wounding/glancing than two twin-linked S7 shots at BS4. The only time the Icarus shines is when you take the Icarus formation.

 

SJ

[CommodusXIII]

That doesn't really check out.  Here's a rough breakdown:

 

Icarus (2 TL shots at BS4) versus Stormspear (3 shots at BS1):

 

Hits per shooting phase:  1.78 versus 0.50

Glances per shooting phase:  0.30 (up to AV13) versus 0.08 (up to AV14)

Penetrations against AV10:  0.89 versus 0.33

Penetrations against AV11:  0.59 versus 0.25

Penetrations against AV12:  0.30 versus 0.17

Penetrations against AV13:  N/A versus 0.08

 

I didn't run the numbers on FMCs, but the results will likely be comparable.  The Icarus lands far more hits on average than the Stormspear, which more than offsets its fewer shots and lower strength.  You could certainly roll a freight train with the Stormspear and ruin someone's day, but statistically that's incredibly unlikely.

[librisrouge]

Math Time!

 

Versus AV12

Rockets: .5 hits, .25 glances/pens, zero chance of killing outright (AP3)

Icarus: 1.78 hits, .59 glances/pens, zero chance of killing outright (AP4)

 

Versus AV11

Rockets: .5 hits, .33 glances/pens, zero chance of killing outright (AP3)

Icarus: 1.78 hits, .59 glances/pens, zero chance of killing outright (AP4)

 

Versus AV10

Rockets: .5 hits, .42 glances/pens, zero chance of killing outright (AP3)

Icarus: 1.78 hits, 1.19 glances/pens, zero chance of killing outright (AP4)

 

Versus FMC T6 +3 Save

Rockets: .5 hits, .42 wounds, .42 wounds after saves, .21 after jink (AP3)

Icarus: 1.78 hits, 1.19 wounds, .39 wounds after saves, would not jink (AP4)

 

Versus FMC T6 +4 Save

Rockets: .5 hits, .42 wounds, .42 wounds after saves, .21 after jink (AP3)

Icarus: 1.78 hits, 1.19 wounds, .60 wounds after saves, .30 after jink (AP4)

 

Based on that, BTW feel free to question my math, the rockets are only superior against FMCs with a +3 armor save that don't jink. Pretty niche if you're taking it for AA duty. However, it outshines the Icarus in almost every other role so it is probably a more solid investment that you can press into service for AA use if you need to.

 

Grain of salt.

[CommodusXIII]

Your math agrees with mine, so if there's a mistake then we both made it.

 

The interaction between Skyfire and Skimmers helps a little bit, but that's a silver lining and not a supporting argument.  The only reason I'd take an Icarus was if I was going up against an army with a lot of Flyers with supporting Skimmers - (Dark) Eldar and Necrons - compared to regular vehicles and infantry.  For anything else, the Stormspear is probably a better investment because I typically ignore Flyers anyway and have never had issue with that tactic.

[Frater Cornelius]

I think the value of Stormspear is different. Since it is AP3, it might force the FMC to jink. Basically, it is a solid tool to play mindgames with the opponent. But are the 40pts worth that? Not convinced. Knights are a massive target. Investing too much into them might backfire.

[CommodusXIII]

My interest in the Stormspear focuses more on my Errants.  I've run into several occasions where the 36" range on the Thermal Cannon is just a few inches too short.  For me, the backup krak missiles help balance that.

 

Anyway, this is diverging a bit from the original topic.

Edited September 25, 2015 by CommodusXIII

[Ishagu]

I was really keen on the Castigator, but the single weapon is a huge downside. One of the great things about a Knight is able to direct the majority of firepower at one target, and then charge another, potentially being able to cripple multiple units in one turn through shooting and assault.

 

The Castigator is only able to engage a single target, and shooting it would likely make your charge more difficult. For this reason, the Warden is the better choice.