IA: Conqueror Legion - Help Requested

[TDF]

I have an idea for the chapter I would like to create for the latest Liber Challenge, tentative named the Conqueror Legion. It is an Ultramarine successor with a focus on expanding the Imperium's domains rather than merely defending what it already has. Voyaging out into the darkness, exterminating xenos, finding lost human survivors of Old Night, all that jazz. I want them to have quite close ties to certain mechanicus explorator fleets and as such have good access to rare and near-forbidden bio- and rad-weaponry (maybe even a pinch of good old phospex) to better scour clean the filth that lurks beyond the borders. They're also scavengers; far from supply lines they seize equipment, ammunition and technology from the worlds they conquer (even those inhabited by newly compliant humans) to put to good use in their next campaign. They pass on the rare stuff they can't use to the mechanicum, hence their good relationship. They despise rogue traders, who they hypocritically regard as self-interested raiders and thieves.

 

My initially thoughts for the founding are that they were born out of a XIII legion chapter known for brutal subjugation and extermination campaigns and for not working well with others. After the Heresy they spoke out against the mindset that the Imperium should consolidate and protect what it had left. They wanted to continue the Great Crusade, arguing that to allow safe havens for xenos to exist is a false economy as far more lives and resources will be lost fighting the inevitable invasions than in pre-emptive strikes on their homeworlds. And so they went their own way out into the black.

 

My concern with this chapter concept is that I don't want them to be too similar to the Black Templars, who continue the Great Crusade mentality, or the Carcharodons, who operate beyond the Imperium's borders and are known for brutality.

 

Any thoughts?

[Doctor Perils]

I have an idea for the chapter I would like to create for the latest Liber Challenge, tentative named the Conqueror Legion. It is an Ultramarine successor with a focus on expanding the Imperium's domains rather than merely defending what it already has. Voyaging out into the darkness, exterminating xenos, finding lost human survivors of Old Night, all that jazz. I want them to have quite close ties to certain mechanicus explorator fleets and as such have good access to rare and near-forbidden bio- and rad-weaponry (maybe even a pinch of good old phospex) to better scour clean the filth that lurks beyond the borders. They're also scavengers; far from supply lines they seize equipment, ammunition and technology from the worlds they conquer (even those inhabited by newly compliant humans) to put to good use in their next campaign. They pass on the rare stuff they can't use to the mechanicum, hence their good relationship. They despise rogue traders, who they hypocritically regard as self-interested raiders and thieves.

 

My initially thoughts for the founding are that they were born out of a XIII legion chapter known for brutal subjugation and extermination campaigns and for not working well with others. After the Heresy they spoke out against the mindset that the Imperium should consolidate and protect what it had left. They wanted to continue the Great Crusade, arguing that to allow safe havens for xenos to exist is a false economy as far more lives and resources will be lost fighting the inevitable invasions than in pre-emptive strikes on their homeworlds. And so they went their own way out into the black.

 

My concern with this chapter concept is that I don't want them to be too similar to the Black Templars, who continue the Great Crusade mentality, or the Carcharodons, who operate beyond the Imperium's borders and are known for brutality.

 

Any thoughts?

 

My first thought is that on the contrary, you need excellent relations with the Rogue Traders in their capacity of explorers. Explorators only look for technology and the odd Forgeworld, and don't give a :cuss about anything else. Rogue Traders on the other hand look for new worlds for the Imperium and new Warp routes, both of which your chapter would need in order to know where to lead your crusade.

 

I'll tone this down, by saying that in general you don't trust Rogue Traders, but you might have close ties with a dynasty or three. You'll also want good ties with a Navigator House probably, as reaching beyond the bounds of the Imperium is going to be especially dangerous, but possibly more lucrative for them.

 

I think it's a good idea: as you say, it'll be difficult not to make them too much like the Black Templars, but perhaps if your chapter looks at this more like a Conquest then a Crusade, then it could work. More of the conquering Roman Republic/Empire and less of the zealous crusaders. Further, whenever they conquer new territory, they might take much longer on the new worlds ensuring compliance, rather than flying back off three days after the last conquest ?

 

In that aspect, I imagine they'd be fleet based, but how would the Codex Astartes work for them ? Would they always be in quite a compact mass, or would their be different independent cohorts/battalions, each having their own veterans and scouts ?

[TDF]

For organisation it will be standard codex on paper. In practice most expeditions will be a battle company or two, supported by squads nominally part of the reserve, veteran and scout companies. Whenever fleets return to base they will likely rotate some of the support elements around depending on casualties, next deployment, etc.

 

On the subject of rogue traders I imagine them as being unwanted competition. The chapter has been doing this for a long time: it knows where the blank spaces are on the map, it knows where the alien makes its den. The Conqueror Legion does what it does for the glory of the Imperium. Rogue traders lack that purity, having selfish ambitions for wealth, fame and continuing their family line. You make a good point on the navigators though.

 

I like the comparison you make with the Roman empire. There's inspiration to be drawn from the way Rome annihilated Carthage, salting the ruins. There's also the way it recruited auxiliary forces from the people it conquered. I can use that to help we write about how the Conquerors requisition recruits and equipment from the world's they subjugate.

[Doctor Perils]

On the subject of rogue traders I imagine them as being unwanted competition. The chapter has been doing this for a long time: it knows where the blank spaces are on the map, it knows where the alien makes its den. The Conqueror Legion does what it does for the glory of the Imperium. Rogue traders lack that purity, having selfish ambitions for wealth, fame and continuing their family line. You make a good point on the navigators though.

 

I like the comparison you make with the Roman empire. There's inspiration to be drawn from the way Rome annihilated Carthage, salting the ruins. There's also the way it recruited auxiliary forces from the people it conquered. I can use that to help we write about how the Conquerors requisition recruits and equipment from the world's they subjugate.

Ok, the chapter has been at this a long time... But the Rogue Traders (as an institution) have been at this even longer than the Space Marines, as their creation stretches back to the first days of the Great Crusade, for the main purpose to scout out the first objectives. Yes, they have lost their "purity" but nonetheless, that is why they were created. Don't forget that they operate on mandate, and they were given their task by the High Lords of Terra, and in some rare cases by the Emperor Himself. A Rogue Trader dynasty can't just say : "ooh, if I started exploring the borders of the Imperium, I could make a good profit", it is a lot more complicated then that.

 

They are afforded a great deal of independance and preferential trade rights because the Imperium needs to find incentives for them to go out and explore.

 

 

 

 

My idea wasn't really in their conquering of Carthage, but more the conquering of the rest of their Empire. Carthage is actually the opposite of what I wanted to show, because the salting of the earth was to utterly destroy their hated arch-enemies. But recruiting auxiliary forces, and to some extent adopting some of their practices would be a good idea. Let's say that you encounter an enemy with an emphasis on heavy-cavalry, which defeats you the first time round. Later you decide to institute "heavy bikers"...

[TDF]

For 'Carthage' substitute 'foul xenos'.

[Doctor Perils]

Around what segmentum are you planing on having your fun ? I'm currently trying to develop a Xenos species called the Phryx that use lots of Mastodons and stuff: I originally wanted to start modelling them on the Carthaginians with war elephants, and so I've carried on from there. If you're interested in killing some extra Xenos with me, you can PM me

[Arkangilos]

Honestly, rogue traders are the ones you want to ally with.

 

Since your chapter sees it as a mission to keep expanding the boarders, competition isn't the issue. They aren't doing it for glory, they are doing it for Duty, so why would they care if Rogue Traders also do it? I mean, chapters aren't made to explore, they aren't made to discover, and that doesn't seem to be the mission you stated for them.

 

So I would suggest maybe you have a Rogue Trader Dynasty that you allied with. They explore, discover worlds, artifacts, etc. Once the Rogue Trader discovers an artifact, they might give it to the Space Marines as part of the agreement between them, and in return when they discover a world that is full of xenos scum, you smash them like bugs. 

 

You distrust *other* Rogue Trader dynasties, though, because they have not made the agreement, and they are competing with your allies, which makes them shady. Something like that.

 

But space marines aren't meant to explore, they are only meant to destroy.

 

Also, if you do it like this you don't need to have your own fleet (I mean, you can, but you don't have to use it). Your space marines can travel with the Rogue Trader fleet (Dynasties can have entire fleets). This would go back to the GC Exploration Fleets.

[TDF]

Chapters like the Carcharodons seem to manage fine on their own in the uncharted regions of the galaxy. The Great Crusade seemed to manage fine with space marines in the lead. Many chapters are fleet based and manage fine by themselves.

I'm not saying that the chapter couldn't do its job better by forming closer connections with rogue trader dynasties, just that the space marines are too pigheaded to change their ways. I mentioned that they're being pretty hypocritical in their dislike of rogue traders. Conflict between different arms of the Imperium is hardly unheard of either.

Around what segmentum are you planing on having your fun ? I'm currently trying to develop a Xenos species called the Phryx that use lots of Mastodons and stuff: I originally wanted to start modelling them on the Carthaginians with war elephants, and so I've carried on from there. If you're interested in killing some extra Xenos with me, you can PM me

I'm moving house this weekend, but I would be interested in developing something together. I'll hopefully be able to PM you sometime next week to work something out.

[Doctor Perils]

After a quick look at the Warhammer wiki (so not necessarily particularly trustworthy):

• The Carcharadons are fleet based but follow a nomad-predatory pattern, not a crusading pattern, which means they aren't actually looking for new planets to conquer.
• The Great Crusade did actually make use of Rogue Traders (or an early version of them).

I don't know about the other fleet based chapters, but I think that they generally stay within the bounds of the Imperium, reconquering lost worlds that they already know about, rather than planets that weren't conquered during the great crusade. Also, rather than say they don't use them, they generally don't mention them at all, so it's entirely possible they make use of them without our knowledge.

In any case, there are two points to remember:

• exploration is needed before launching an invasion, because otherwise the expedition will loose steam, as they aren't geared for exploration.
• this is your fluff, so if you don't want to trust the rogue traders, then your chapter doesn't trust Rogue Traders.

This actually offers interesting opportunities, rather than complications. I see two possibilities:\

• You create space marine explorers: either this chapter becomes explorers, you create a new chapter, or you create a specialist post as explorers. As Space Marines are created specifically for being soldiers, this might not be very effective;
• You say that you use your own serf explorers: recruited at the same time as the space marines, but not augmented, you have several small fleets that act as your own personal rogue traders, but that serve your chapter directly. If needed, these could be commanded by a Space Marine, and these would be counted as new specialists.

I'd be more tempted to see this second option, and if you don't use it, I'll be stealing the idea

[Arkangilos]

Well, I mean you could dislike Rogue Traders because when they discover worlds, they don't "conquer them" and they sometimes trade with the Xenos. So maybe you keep tabs on the Rogue Traders (secretly), and whenever one discovers a world, you invade it. This pisses them off because they lose profit. That would create some serious problems.

 

 

However, the thing with the Mechanicus: they are very jealous about relics and technology. If you don't give it to them, or only give them scraps, they will hate you. The Soul Drinkers are a prime example. They saw an artifact that once belonged to a Primarch, and the Mechanicus took it, would not let the Soul Drinkers have it, and started the chain of events that led to the books.

 

I seriously doubt they would just let you keep what you wanted and shared what you deemed unnecessary. That would piss them right off.

 

Another case in this is the Blood Angels and the Baal Predator (and it's engine). There is a rift between the Blood Angels (and their successors), and the Mechanicum because the BA kept it.

 

 The Great Crusade seemed to manage fine with space marines in the lead. 

 

Yes, during the Great Crusade, before the Horus Heresy, and before they split the roles. That was back when the Legions were *meant* to do everything. The Horus Heresy changed that, and they aren't *allowed* to do everything anymore. It's not a matter of capability.

 

Many chapters are fleet based and manage fine by themselves.

 

 

They don't explore.

 

Again, another big thing is that space marines aren't there to explore. That is the job of the Rogue Traders and Explorator Fleets (who would NOT share their found tech). Part of the changes made by Guilliman after the Horus Heresy was to make sure roles did not overlap. The separate entities exist for a reason, and the Imperium is not going to let that slide. They won't (and this has been proven), let chapters take on every role they can. They are a tool, a scalpel. To become a hammer is to exceed their purpose. A tool that exceeds their purpose is dangerous. 

[Doctor Perils]

Another case in this is the Blood Angels and the Baal Predator (and it's engine). There is a rift between the Blood Angels (and their successors), and the Mechanicum because the BA kept it.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but a rift between Mars and the BAs ? Really *looks at the Stormraven, orginally only for the GKs and the BAs...*

(Ok, granted, that was Ward-time... )

[Arkangilos]

Another case in this is the Blood Angels and the Baal Predator (and it's engine). There is a rift between the Blood Angels (and their successors), and the Mechanicum because the BA kept it.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but a rift between Mars and the BAs ? Really *looks at the Stormraven, orginally only for the GKs and the BAs...*

(Ok, granted, that was Ward-time... )

True Story:

"Indeed, it's capture and subsequent retention caused a rift between the Chapter and the Adeptus Mechanicus that has never fully healed." (Codex: Blood Angels, 7th Edition, page 89, Baal Predator).

Also, it was Matt Ward that started the rift in the first place:

"In a move that was riven with controversy even then, the victorious Blood Angels did not hand the template over to the Adeptus Mechanicus, despite the dark threats directed against them... The Tech-Priests have never forgiven what they view as the Blood Angel's theft of the design..." (Codex: Blood Angels, 5th Edition, P.36).