+ Legion Cultural Influences +

[Daemon2027]

There was no such thing as the Phoenicians really, there was a group of city states, Tyre being the most famous, that spoke the same language, belived in the same Gods, and we're very adapt at seafaring. One of their main trading resources was purple dye which was very hard to make (it was extracted from a particular sea urchin I believe) and this very expensive, and it's where we get the name Phonecians from. Unlike the Greeks however, the people we know call the Phonecians never seemed to have the unifying aspect of 'we are one people who can come together in times of war'. They effectively ended as a force due to Alexander the Great, although some colonies lasted longer, the mast famous being Carthage. We should remember them for the Alphabet though, which they are ussually credited with inventing, as it was their alphabet that the Greeks developed, and I believe the Semitic and this Arabaic alphabet has its roots in the Phonecians to.

 

Not sure why this had to fall into a which is the best legion debate. Each Legion had its strengths and weaknesses, and some were designed to work in a certain way, while others were more general (although you could argue that is a design aspect), not sure we all can't just accept that.

[TennisBall]

The Scottish connection of the Ultramarines.

Roboute Guilliman - Robert the Bruce, William Wallace.

Macragge - Mac means son of, crag means rocky.

Ultramar - mediaeval world saw Scotland as an island. 13th map refers to Scotland as Scocia Ultramarina.

Colours (white on blue) - same as cross of St Andrew.

Konor - personal name Connor.

[Legatus]

Did the scotts have a history or a stereotype of close adherance to law or scripture? Any religious or doctrinal orthodoxy? Because the Ultramarines' strict adherance to Codex doctrine was a trait they had before they were turned into the roman space legion, and before the Codex Astartes was being attributed to Roboute Guilliman.

[Remus Ventanus.]

The Scottish connection of the Ultramarines.

Roboute Guilliman - Robert the Bruce, William Wallace.

Macragge - Mac means son of, crag means rocky.

Ultramar - mediaeval world saw Scotland as an island. 13th map refers to Scotland as Scocia Ultramarina.

Colours (white on blue) - same as cross of St Andrew.

Konor - personal name Connor.

Very interesting!

 

The only one i dont see is the roboute guiilman - william wallace connection.

[Marshal Rohr]

Did the scotts have a history or a stereotype of close adherance to law or scripture? Any religious or doctrinal orthodoxy? Because the Ultramarines' strict adherance to Codex doctrine was a trait they had before they were turned into the roman space legion, and before the Codex Astartes was being attributed to Roboute Guilliman.

So you didn't like my objection to Death Guard being Imperial German, but you'll object to Ultramarines being Scottish with more evidence than DG being German had? :P

[TennisBall]

 

The Scottish connection of the Ultramarines.

Roboute Guilliman - Robert the Bruce, William Wallace.

Macragge - Mac means son of, crag means rocky.

Ultramar - mediaeval world saw Scotland as an island. 13th map refers to Scotland as Scocia Ultramarina.

Colours (white on blue) - same as cross of St Andrew.

Konor - personal name Connor.

Very interesting!

 

The only one i dont see is the roboute guiilman - william wallace connection.

 

That connection is one I only just thought of. It does fit as the early lore masters tended to base stuff on actual history and pop culture references rather than just making stuff up.

It seems obvious that his name is based on those names. Roboute = Robert, Guilliman = William. I find it too coincidental that both elements of his name are the first names of Scotland's most revered heroes.

Maybe there is another Robert William reference intended, but this seems to fit so well.

[TennisBall]

Did the scotts have a history or a stereotype of close adherance to law or scripture? Any religious or doctrinal orthodoxy? Because the Ultramarines' strict adherance to Codex doctrine was a trait they had before they were turned into the roman space legion, and before the Codex Astartes was being attributed to Roboute Guilliman.

Don't know much about Scottish religious history other than the Presbyterians but found this on wiki which is interesting:

 

Presbyterians distinguish themselves from other denominations by doctrine, institutional organization (or "church order") and worship; often using a "Book of Order" to regulate common practice and order.

 

Sound familiar?

[1000 Sons]

Did the scotts have a history or a stereotype of close adherance to law or scripture? Any religious or doctrinal orthodoxy? Because the Ultramarines' strict adherance to Codex doctrine was a trait they had before they were turned into the roman space legion, and before the Codex Astartes was being attributed to Roboute Guilliman.

So you didn't like my objection to Death Guard being Imperial German, but you'll object to Ultramarines being Scottish with more evidence than DG being German had?

I think you guys are drifting again into finding really specific Earth history to discard some pretty reasonable similarities in HH. Remember back when 40k was just starting it was a bunch of Brits in a room writing this stuff, one might have been a Scott and threw in some of his nationality into the Ultras. In that time for a villain, who else could be an easier bad guy for an Englishman then a German ? These may have been early themes in the armies but then BL came along and started to really create a history and basis that shifted things a bit.

I always found it strange that the Ultramarines lived on a Scottish planet, Macragge. Your point does make sense.

[Remus Ventanus.]

Did the scotts have a history or a stereotype of close adherance to law or scripture? Any religious or doctrinal orthodoxy? Because the Ultramarines' strict adherance to Codex doctrine was a trait they had before they were turned into the roman space legion, and before the Codex Astartes was being attributed to Roboute Guilliman.

So you didn't like my objection to Death Guard being Imperial German, but you'll object to Ultramarines being Scottish with more evidence than DG being German had?

I get the feeling he doesnt like the XIII

The Scottish connection of the Ultramarines.

Roboute Guilliman - Robert the Bruce, William Wallace.

Macragge - Mac means son of, crag means rocky.

Ultramar - mediaeval world saw Scotland as an island. 13th map refers to Scotland as Scocia Ultramarina.

Colours (white on blue) - same as cross of St Andrew.

Konor - personal name Connor.

Very interesting!

The only one i dont see is the roboute guiilman - william wallace connection.

That connection is one I only just thought of. It does fit as the early lore masters tended to base stuff on actual history and pop culture references rather than just making stuff up.

It seems obvious that his name is based on those names. Roboute = Robert, Guilliman = William. I find it too coincidental that both elements of his name are the first names of Scotland's most revered heroes.

Maybe there is another Robert William reference intended, but this seems to fit so well.

I love this connection. Scotland is a great place, so having some influences on my legion is fine by me :)

[Ion]

I see no one has really brought up the XVI yet (fair enough since it's kind of tricky), but I've kind of been looking at the cultural influences being sort of 'late Western Roman Empire'-esque, with your 'barbarian' warriors dressed up as Roman soldiers serving the Empire until they become disenchanted with it and break away to return to their roots.

 

Not sure if that makes sense.

[b1soul]

Ultras - Disciplined Romans

EC - Orgiastic Romans

Luna Wolves - Semi-Romanised barbarian auxiliaries

[Kizzdougs]

Ultras - Disciplined Romans

EC - Orgiastic Romans

Luna Wolves - Semi-Romanised barbarian auxiliaries

Only post Laer/Istvaan Emperor's Children. Before their corruption the III Legion was as noble and disciplined as any Legion. I feel that because the Emperor's Children fell so early in the Black Library series (8 years ago), people tend to forget that the Legion that we see now (recent bL HH novels) is hugely different from how the Legion used to be (pre Laer). It wouldn't be unreasonable to say that of all the Legions, the III experienced the most rapid and extreme fall from grace/change of character. 

 

Personally I see the EC as a combination of the Eastern Roman Empire and the Italian renaissance.

[TennisBall]

I see no one has really brought up the XVI yet (fair enough since it's kind of tricky), but I've kind of been looking at the cultural influences being sort of 'late Western Roman Empire'-esque, with your 'barbarian' warriors dressed up as Roman soldiers serving the Empire until they become disenchanted with it and break away to return to their roots.

 

Not sure if that makes sense.

They don't seem to have a cultural bent one way or t'other.

Names seem loosely based on mythology from various places - lupercalia, cthulhu, Gabriel, Ozymandius...

They seem like a joe-average legion to me. Black Legion is chaos undivided so the Wolves seemed to have been created as a generic legion in terms of culture. In some ways they resemble the other Wolves - hard and fast attack at the centre to take out the leadership - executioners.

 

How do the pre-heresy legions sit in that regard?

 

Fists, Iron Warriors, Death Guard like to slug it out.

Scars, Wolves like the quick in and out.

Raven Guard, Lords, Alphas like to strike from the shadows.

Thousand Sons have their magic.

World Eaters and Blood Angels go for the frontal attack.

 

What are the legions famous for as that is also part of their culture. Or are they large enough that they really do everything?

[Joeyray]

Did the scotts have a history or a stereotype of close adherance to law or scripture? Any religious or doctrinal orthodoxy? Because the Ultramarines' strict adherance to Codex doctrine was a trait they had before they were turned into the roman space legion, and before the Codex Astartes was being attributed to Roboute Guilliman.

So you didn't like my objection to Death Guard being Imperial German, but you'll object to Ultramarines being Scottish with more evidence than DG being German had?

I get the feeling he doesnt like the XIII

The Scottish connection of the Ultramarines.

Roboute Guilliman - Robert the Bruce, William Wallace.

Macragge - Mac means son of, crag means rocky.

Ultramar - mediaeval world saw Scotland as an island. 13th map refers to Scotland as Scocia Ultramarina.

Colours (white on blue) - same as cross of St Andrew.

Konor - personal name Connor.

Very interesting!

The only one i dont see is the roboute guiilman - william wallace connection.

That connection is one I only just thought of. It does fit as the early lore masters tended to base stuff on actual history and pop culture references rather than just making stuff up.

It seems obvious that his name is based on those names. Roboute = Robert, Guilliman = William. I find it too coincidental that both elements of his name are the first names of Scotland's most revered heroes.

Maybe there is another Robert William reference intended, but this seems to fit so well.

I love this connection. Scotland is a great place, so having some influences on my legion is fine by me :)

Speaking as a Scot,I have to say the day we see an entire legion march to war with the M31 equivalent of "Black Bear" on the pipes, I will be moved to tears!

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

 

 

Did the scotts have a history or a stereotype of close adherance to law or scripture? Any religious or doctrinal orthodoxy? Because the Ultramarines' strict adherance to Codex doctrine was a trait they had before they were turned into the roman space legion, and before the Codex Astartes was being attributed to Roboute Guilliman.

So you didn't like my objection to Death Guard being Imperial German, but you'll object to Ultramarines being Scottish with more evidence than DG being German had? :P

I get the feeling he doesnt like the XIII

 

 

The Scottish connection of the Ultramarines.

Roboute Guilliman - Robert the Bruce, William Wallace.

Macragge - Mac means son of, crag means rocky.

Ultramar - mediaeval world saw Scotland as an island. 13th map refers to Scotland as Scocia Ultramarina.

Colours (white on blue) - same as cross of St Andrew.

Konor - personal name Connor.

Very interesting!

The only one i dont see is the roboute guiilman - william wallace connection.

That connection is one I only just thought of. It does fit as the early lore masters tended to base stuff on actual history and pop culture references rather than just making stuff up.

It seems obvious that his name is based on those names. Roboute = Robert, Guilliman = William. I find it too coincidental that both elements of his name are the first names of Scotland's most revered heroes.

Maybe there is another Robert William reference intended, but this seems to fit so well.

I love this connection. Scotland is a great place, so having some influences on my legion is fine by me :)

Speaking as a Scot,I have to say the day we see an entire legion march to war with the M31 equivalent of "Black Bear" on the pipes, I will be moved to tears!

Speaking as a half (or more like 38%) scot, I agree!

[Brother Heinrich]

So seems like a fair amount of folks are making the connection of Sons of Horus with the late Western Roman Empire, i.e barbarians and savages wearing the trappings of the Imperial military and fighting for the Empire. Would it be safe to tentatively quantify them as such?

 

[Slips]

 

I see no one has really brought up the XVI yet (fair enough since it's kind of tricky), but I've kind of been looking at the cultural influences being sort of 'late Western Roman Empire'-esque, with your 'barbarian' warriors dressed up as Roman soldiers serving the Empire until they become disenchanted with it and break away to return to their roots.

 

Not sure if that makes sense.

They don't seem to have a cultural bent one way or t'other.

Names seem loosely based on mythology from various places - lupercalia, cthulhu, Gabriel, Ozymandius...

They seem like a joe-average legion to me. Black Legion is chaos undivided so the Wolves seemed to have been created as a generic legion in terms of culture. In some ways they resemble the other Wolves - hard and fast attack at the centre to take out the leadership - executioners.

 

How do the pre-heresy legions sit in that regard?

 

Fists, Iron Warriors, Death Guard like to slug it out.

Scars, Wolves like the quick in and out.

Raven Guard, Lords, Alphas like to strike from the shadows.

Thousand Sons have their magic.

World Eaters and Blood Angels go for the frontal attack.

 

What are the legions famous for as that is also part of their culture. Or are they large enough that they really do everything?

 

With the RG at the Smallest numbering 83k Marines after Gate 42, yes, they would have enough marines to fill any role.

 

However, they still have combat preferences usually influenced by:

• Primarch
• Recruitment World(s)
• Pre-Primarch Legion Culture (to an extent)

And a bunch of other stuff.

 

ie: While IF and IW are both Reputed Siegecraft Legions, one is more Defensively Inclined (IF) vs Offensively Inclined (IW) which is exemplified by their RoWs and Legion Rules.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

I see no one has really brought up the XVI yet (fair enough since it's kind of tricky), but I've kind of been looking at the cultural influences being sort of 'late Western Roman Empire'-esque, with your 'barbarian' warriors dressed up as Roman soldiers serving the Empire until they become disenchanted with it and break away to return to their roots.

 

Not sure if that makes sense.

They don't seem to have a cultural bent one way or t'other.

Names seem loosely based on mythology from various places - lupercalia, cthulhu, Gabriel, Ozymandius...

They seem like a joe-average legion to me. Black Legion is chaos undivided so the Wolves seemed to have been created as a generic legion in terms of culture. In some ways they resemble the other Wolves - hard and fast attack at the centre to take out the leadership - executioners.

 

How do the pre-heresy legions sit in that regard?

 

Fists, Iron Warriors, Death Guard like to slug it out.

Scars, Wolves like the quick in and out.

Raven Guard, Lords, Alphas like to strike from the shadows.

Thousand Sons have their magic.

World Eaters and Blood Angels go for the frontal attack.

 

What are the legions famous for as that is also part of their culture. Or are they large enough that they really do everything?

With the RG at the Smallest numbering 83k Marines after Gate 42, yes, they would have enough marines to fill any role.

 

However, they still have combat preferences usually influenced by:

• Primarch
• Recruitment World(s)
• Pre-Primarch Legion Culture (to an extent)

And a bunch of other stuff.

 

ie: While IF and IW are both Reputed Siegecraft Legions, one is more Defensively Inclined (IF) vs Offensively Inclined (IW) which is exemplified by their RoWs and Legion Rules.

Using rules to justify culture is like going to Taco Bell for authentic Mexican food. Every description of the Fists famous battles were all assaults and the Battle of Phall section made it clear the Fists boarded as often as they were boarded.

[Ion]

 

I see no one has really brought up the XVI yet (fair enough since it's kind of tricky), but I've kind of been looking at the cultural influences being sort of 'late Western Roman Empire'-esque, with your 'barbarian' warriors dressed up as Roman soldiers serving the Empire until they become disenchanted with it and break away to return to their roots.

 

Not sure if that makes sense.

 

They don't seem to have a cultural bent one way or t'other.

Names seem loosely based on mythology from various places - lupercalia, cthulhu, Gabriel, Ozymandius...

They seem like a joe-average legion to me. Black Legion is chaos undivided so the Wolves seemed to have been created as a generic legion in terms of culture.

 

Sure, they started out as 'joe-average' because that's what the old fluff said, but there's definitely a culture there in them that comes out more and more as the Cthonian influences take hold. The Mirror-coins and skull taking shows a divergence from the more standard terran systems of the early legions, just off the top of my head.

[Marshal Rohr]

Tapping the heart three times to show sincerity.

[Slips]

 

 

 

I see no one has really brought up the XVI yet (fair enough since it's kind of tricky), but I've kind of been looking at the cultural influences being sort of 'late Western Roman Empire'-esque, with your 'barbarian' warriors dressed up as Roman soldiers serving the Empire until they become disenchanted with it and break away to return to their roots.

 

Not sure if that makes sense.

They don't seem to have a cultural bent one way or t'other.

Names seem loosely based on mythology from various places - lupercalia, cthulhu, Gabriel, Ozymandius...

They seem like a joe-average legion to me. Black Legion is chaos undivided so the Wolves seemed to have been created as a generic legion in terms of culture. In some ways they resemble the other Wolves - hard and fast attack at the centre to take out the leadership - executioners.

 

How do the pre-heresy legions sit in that regard?

 

Fists, Iron Warriors, Death Guard like to slug it out.

Scars, Wolves like the quick in and out.

Raven Guard, Lords, Alphas like to strike from the shadows.

Thousand Sons have their magic.

World Eaters and Blood Angels go for the frontal attack.

 

What are the legions famous for as that is also part of their culture. Or are they large enough that they really do everything?

With the RG at the Smallest numbering 83k Marines after Gate 42, yes, they would have enough marines to fill any role.

 

However, they still have combat preferences usually influenced by:

• Primarch
• Recruitment World(s)
• Pre-Primarch Legion Culture (to an extent)

And a bunch of other stuff.

 

ie: While IF and IW are both Reputed Siegecraft Legions, one is more Defensively Inclined (IF) vs Offensively Inclined (IW) which is exemplified by their RoWs and Legion Rules.

Using rules to justify culture is like going to Taco Bell for authentic Mexican food. Every description of the Fists famous battles were all assaults and the Battle of Phall section made it clear the Fists boarded as often as they were boarded.

 

Fair, I mean every legion was offensively minded anyways since that was their Job.

 

My View on the IF being more defensive comes from their depiction of being Too Stubborn to retreat but not Attrition/Meat Grinder Oriented enough to Walk Forward into it like the IW and stuff in that vein.

[Legatus]

So you didn't like my objection to Death Guard being Imperial German, but you'll object to Ultramarines being Scottish with more evidence than DG being German had?

You are mistaking my honest enquiry for a rethorical objection. Am I that cynical? I guess I might be...

I already knew that Scotland was called "Ultramar" on ancient roman maps, and "Macragge" and "Konor" are kind of obvious. I didn't know about the cross of st andrews, and hadn't made any Robert/William connection.

As I said, the Ultramarines had been given the "Codex adherent" theme before they were turned into space romans, being described in the 1991 'Armies of the Imperium' and on the Ultramarine Scout Squad card from the 1991 board game 'Ultra Marines'. So there is the chance that the codex adherent theme was somehow also based more on the shottish roots rather than the roman ones.

I get the feeling he doesnt like the XIII

Not what BL/FW are turning them into.

Jeez, get your quotes in order, people.

[TennisBall]

Sure, they started out as 'joe-average' because that's what the old fluff said, but there's definitely a culture there in them that comes out more and more as the Cthonian influences take hold. The Mirror-coins and skull taking shows a divergence from the more standard terran systems of the early legions, just off the top of my head.

So they're techno-barbarians then. I just remembered Loken fighting Lucius in a duel. He wins by punching Lucius rather than stick to using his sword.

[Ekim_Trub]

The Ultramarines can't be Scottish influenced (none of them can) due to a lack of Kilts, lol.
 http://cdn.gagbay.com/2012/10/why_i_wear_a_kilt-155944.jpg

[TennisBall]

Thanks Burt, your location just inspired me to think of another possible Scots connection though not with the Ultras.

Fife is one of the old recruitment areas for the Black Watch.

I wonder if they inspired the Deathwatch who wear black?