Brother Heinrich Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 The problem that seems to be occurring with people associating the Death Guard with WWI German Infantry seems to stem from the fact that they keep placing the pure endurance and strength of XIV Legion marines as the preeminent factor. The sheer resilience and strength of Space Marines is a given factor and has no bearing on this discussion of cultural influences. The thing is that the Death Guard fight just like early 20th Century armies. They march straight at the enemy in massed infantry waves and kill them with flamethrowers, machine guns, and knives. The only reason this works for the Death Guard and not the Red Army, or Imperial German army, is that they are 8-foot tall super humans encased in the most durable armor ever engineered by mankind. Focus on the theme outside of the technical and physiological elements that are part of the 30k universe. The same applies to the Salamanders, we all know their dark complexion comes from a reaction in their mucranoid to the radiation of Nocturne. However to my knowledge, the actual people of Nocturne are not dark skinned with fiery red eyes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4182957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 The problem that seems to be occurring with people associating the Death Guard with WWI German Infantry seems to stem from the fact that they keep placing the pure endurance and strength of XIV Legion marines as the preeminent factor. Got nothing to do with that. It's all about that pickelhaube plus gasmask look which defines their visual design. A clear reference to WW1 gas warfare, specifically german style helmets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4182993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 The problem that seems to be occurring with people associating the Death Guard with WWI German Infantry seems to stem from the fact that they keep placing the pure endurance and strength of XIV Legion marines as the preeminent factor. Got nothing to do with that. It's all about that pickelhaube plus gasmask look which defines their visual design. A clear reference to WW1 gas warfare, specifically german style helmets. A helmet design doesn't then necessarily follow that the whole legion is based on WWI Germany though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4182996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Nothing else about the Legion has any references to Germany. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I think you guys are getting a little hung up on the Death Gaurd here :) what about the Blood Angels? Would we say Renaissance Italy? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Their helmets are the main distinct design cue the Death Guard has had for years. They didn't have any specific culture or heritage that was described in their background. "Gas war" is literally their core theme. And one prevalent detail for plague Marines is the helmet spike. Saying the Death Guard is based in WW1 germans is as obvious as saying Ultramarines are based in the roman army, Space Wolves are based on Vikings, Dark Angels are based on gothic monastic orders, etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Their helmets are the main distinct design cue the Death Guard has had for years. They didn't have any specific culture or heritage that was described in their background. "Gas war" is literally their core theme. And one prevalent detail for plague Marines is the helmet spike. Saying the Death Guard is based in WW1 germans is as obvious as saying Ultramarines are based in the roman army, Space Wolves are based on Vikings, Dark Angels are based on gothic monastic orders, etc. No it isn't, because those comparisons actually extend further into the legion and their culture, rather than just their uniform. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarus1138 Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Come on guys, the Iron Hands come from a world with a harsh environment, are focused on the acquisition and use of advanced technology, and live in large mobile fortresses when on their home world. They're obviously based on Jawas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Come on guys, the Iron Hands come from a world with a harsh environment, are focused on the acquisition and use of advanced technology, and live in large mobile fortresses when on their home world. They're obviously based on Jawas. I'm imagining big bad Autek Mor saying "Hootini" now... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Their helmets are the main distinct design cue the Death Guard has had for years. They didn't have any specific culture or heritage that was described in their background. "Gas war" is literally their core theme. And one prevalent detail for plague Marines is the helmet spike. Saying the Death Guard is based in WW1 germans is as obvious as saying Ultramarines are based in the roman army, Space Wolves are based on Vikings, Dark Angels are based on gothic monastic orders, etc. But now that they do have specific cultural heritage described, and you being German, would you say the Death Guard accurately represent WWI Germany culturally? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joeyray Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 After watching the opening matches of the Rugby world cup I'd love to see a Legion version of the Haka, Cibi or the Sipi Tau! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Come on guys, the Iron Hands come from a world with a harsh environment, are focused on the acquisition and use of advanced technology, and live in large mobile fortresses when on their home world. They're obviously based on Jawas.I'm imagining big bad Autek Mor saying "Hootini" now..."The dark shape rose from the ground, the blood of its enemies dripping from its closed fists. He turned, looking over his shoulder. His red eye lenses bore deep into my soul and what he spoke, shook me to my bones. It was only one word, one word that rang clear and true across that empty, dead battlefield: 'Hootini!'" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 After watching the opening matches of the Rugby world cup I'd love to see a Legion version of the Haka, Cibi or the Sipi Tau! I've always thought that would be cool. An entire Echelon of World Eaters or a Chapter of Word Bearers doing it before loading their drop pods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Come on guys, the Iron Hands come from a world with a harsh environment, are focused on the acquisition and use of advanced technology, and live in large mobile fortresses when on their home world. They're obviously based on Jawas.I'm imagining big bad Autek Mor saying "Hootini" now..."The dark shape rose from the ground, the blood of its enemies dripping from its closed fists. He turned, looking over his shoulder. His red eye lenses bore deep into my soul and what he spoke, shook me to my bones. It was only one word, one word that rang clear and true across that empty, dead battlefield: 'Hootini!'" Lol. Those blaster marks are too accurate... I'm sure he travels around with his two best lobotomized servitors C3POmega and Rho2Delta2....:P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Imperial Fists, Portuguese Empire. Templars, religious orders, erected fortresses on every place they conquered, unyielding on defense and always fought in numerical disadvantage. Great sailors and crusaders. Perfect mix of Zeal and stuburness. Biased I know ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulemain Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I'm still hoping that the Pre-Lion Dark Angels turn out to have been a really "American/Anglosphere" Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 But now that they do have specific cultural heritage described, and you being German, would you say the Death Guard accurately represent WWI Germany culturally? Perhaps the caricature of germany as presented by British propaganda. The germans were depicted as "barbarians", commonly referred to as modern day "huns". These two descriptions from 'HH1: Betrayal' (p. 126) sound closer to the british/allied descriptions of WW2 germany rather than WW1: "At the heart of them was the unshakable determination that Mankind should be free from oppression and terror. Such freedom could only be won in the Primarch's mind by destroying those who would shackle and devour us." "This was a war to be fought without mercy or limit, without restraint or relenting. The battle for the human future was one that could only be won by enduring any hardship, no matter how terrible, and not shirking away from any act, no matter how savage in pursuit of victory." The less we go into detail explaining those references the better. This one is from the Death Guard Index Astartes: "A resolute determination that individuals should be free of oppression and terror became a conviction that individuals were not suited to decide what was just for them. A faith in inner strength, iron will and unshakable resolution in the face of hardship led to pride, arrogance and an utter contempt for those they deemed inferior." I remember similar words from my history lessons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Yes, I can see the... Similarity. That's not the historical parallel I would've pulled from those passages, personally. In context I can see your point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainStabby Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I think there is probably a pre primarch discovery and post primarch discovery discussion to be had for some of these as well, a lot of the disposition of the various legions changes pretty dramatically when they get the non Terran Astartes rolled in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 But now that they do have specific cultural heritage described, and you being German, would you say the Death Guard accurately represent WWI Germany culturally? Perhaps the caricature of germany as presented by British propaganda. The germans were depicted as "barbarians", commonly referred to as modern day "huns". These two descriptions from 'HH1: Betrayal' (p. 126) sound closer to the british/allied descriptions of WW2 germany rather than WW1: "At the heart of them was the unshakable determination that Mankind should be free from oppression and terror. Such freedom could only be won in the Primarch's mind by destroying those who would shackle and devour us." "This was a war to be fought without mercy or limit, without restraint or relenting. The battle for the human future was one that could only be won by enduring any hardship, no matter how terrible, and not shirking away from any act, no matter how savage in pursuit of victory." The less we go into detail explaining those references the better. This one is from the Death Guard Index Astartes: "A resolute determination that individuals should be free of oppression and terror became a conviction that individuals were not suited to decide what was just for them. A faith in inner strength, iron will and unshakable resolution in the face of hardship led to pride, arrogance and an utter contempt for those they deemed inferior." I remember similar words from my history lessons. Death Guard are the 31st Century Libertarians. In any case, nothing culturally is derived from Germany. Their tactics reek of WWI Germanic Chemical attacks (the first force to use things like Mustard Gas and Chlorine in a militaristic application), they would charge into the enemy with flamethrowers and purge the trenches of enemies, etc. Culturally, Barbarus is unique. They can be seen as any oppressed culture, I suppose... but nothing you can pinpoint. Perhaps Serbs? Probably not. The Dusk Raiders of Albia definitely have their culture derived from England / Scotland / Wales / Ireland. This is the interesting predicament many Legions (even Loyal Legions) find themselves in after discovering their Primarch. Two completely different cultures more or less thrown together... it breeds contempt for many. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegriss Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 just a side note and I may be wrong but I believe the allies militarized gas weaponry first the Germans where just more successful in its application early on the French and British tried useing tear gas early on but it was largely ineffective often unnoticed but the Germans used chlorine and phosgene gas later (mostly because it was easier to produce) and in higher concentrations and found great/evil success with it but still only attained less then 10% casualties actually caused by gas Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Germany was the first, using dianisidine chlorosulfonate in October 1914. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongGone Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 After watching the opening matches of the Rugby world cup I'd love to see a Legion version of the Haka, Cibi or the Sipi Tau! I've always thought that would be cool. An entire Echelon of World Eaters or a Chapter of Word Bearers doing it before loading their drop pods. For the legions with influences that harken back to Ancient Rome or Greece, I think a paean would be the more appropriate pre-battle ritual. But either way, make it so ADB! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainStabby Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 After watching the opening matches of the Rugby world cup I'd love to see a Legion version of the Haka, Cibi or the Sipi Tau! I've always thought that would be cool. An entire Echelon of World Eaters or a Chapter of Word Bearers doing it before loading their drop pods. For the legions with influences that harken back to Ancient Rome or Greece, I think a paean would be the more appropriate pre-battle ritual. But either way, make it so ADB! They already did that with Clone Troopers in a SW novel, doubtful we will see it recycled sadly, would be great to see the Pale Nomads doing a Haka and Corax being like... uhh... what was that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Their helmets are the main distinct design cue the Death Guard has had for years. They didn't have any specific culture or heritage that was described in their background. "Gas war" is literally their core theme. And one prevalent detail for plague Marines is the helmet spike. Saying the Death Guard is based in WW1 germans is as obvious as saying Ultramarines are based in the roman army, Space Wolves are based on Vikings, Dark Angels are based on gothic monastic orders, etc. No...it is not. Viking culture permeates the Space Wolves legion Early 20th century German culture does not permeate the Death Guard legion. I would argue that the DG share almost zero cultural similarities with WWI Germany. Using poison gas is a battlefield tactic...not a cultural element The helmet spike is a very superficial similarity limited to the visual appearance of uniforms/armour At most you could say, SW are very heavily based on Vikings...whereas DG are very loosely based on WWI Germany Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/6/#findComment-4183453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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