Emperor's Furor Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 I have a theory about the three secret founding legions, the Salamanders have a unique aspect about them that pops up more when you take their Primarch in to account so perhaps the Emperor wanted to hide that (He hid Vulkan from everyone for a while when he was found to) The Space Wolves obviously had an inherent/designed issue with their geneseed which the Emperor wanted to keep under raps. The Alpha Legion's general purpose from the outset was to be the undercover legion and so they had to keep them a secret to let them set up their networks, infiltrate etc etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4185804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 I like my list more. In any case, the Alpha Legion were a specialized Legion. Fact. They had a special purpose. Fact. We don't know what it was. Fact. The FW rules do make them categorically the best, as they can do whatever your elite can do, but also +1 because of their Legion-wide USR. *Shrug* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4185805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 I like my list more. In any case, the Alpha Legion were a specialized Legion. Rumor. They had a special purpose. Rumor. We don't know what it was. Rumor. Â The descriptions in 'Extermination' are not quite as definitive as you make them out to be. Â Â The FW rules do make them categorically the best, as they can do whatever your elite can do, but also +1 because of their Legion-wide USR. *Shrug* Â "My" army can bring five (or whatever) of those elite units, while the Alpha Legion can only bring one. And "my" elite units will benefit from my Legion's USR, while the Alpha Legion's single unit wont. It is their take on such a specialised unit, as found in another Legion. They have fewer of them available, and the units are familiar with the Alpha Legion's overall doctrine, not the doctrine of the originating Legion. Â But perhaps this discussion should be transferred into another thread. Something like "The Alpha Legion, just how awesome are they?" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4185810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 I agree. I'm not saying that it's fair or that I agree with it, it's just that their portrayal makes them out to be the best Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4185812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheesh Mode Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Â @Sheesh Mode, try reading it again. Slowly. Or you can read this: Â Technically all the legions are a special creation of the emperor, otherwise he would've just popped out Guillimans gene template and made 50 carbon copy legions with it. There is a reason that each legion is a unique and special snowflake and why none are better than the others at everything. Please do not apply modern conceptions of military strategy to the thirtieth millennium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4185826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Well that's not technically true either, see the three specialist Legions. They were each created for some purpose, FW hasn't delved into it and I'm not sure they ever will. I'd be a little miffed if they left us with "Salamanders, Space Wolves, and Alpha Legion are special because..." and then never divulge those details. That's what we're left with now. Â I see you're from my territory as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4185830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 It doesn't say why they were hidden, I don't think it means they are special, that's just an assumption isn't it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4185840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Actually he probably means Ultramarines, Sons of Horus and maybe Imperial Fists  FYI, I would count the Emperor's Children instead of the Imperial Fists as one of the paragons. They were trained to an exceptionally high degree and held to a very high standard by their command, and they were noted and commended for it. They were very successful in their campaigns, but their low numbers prevented them from achieving as much as other Legions. The Imperial Fists in comparison had a slightly higher degree of specialisation, not as universal. They were more the reliable strategic reserve, and deployed preferrably for a specific type of engagement, even though they were not specialised to as high a degree as other Legions (like the Iron Warriors).  The Luna Wolves, Emperor's Children, and the Ultramarines had Marines trained to a very high standard in universal doctrines (not specialised), were very successful in their campaigns, and received various exceptional comendationsfor their achievements.  Some other Legions (like the Dark Angels or the Imperial Fists) were also quite successful, and received praise, but were not quite seen as a model that could perhaps inspire other Legions. They had their own special niche. The Dark Angels had their "wings" and were perhaps not the most cooperative, while the Imperial Fists were often held back as the strategic reserve in case of heavy fortified resistance. The Alpha Legion also had very highly trained Marines, and they for the most part used universal and diverse doctrines, but they also focused heavily on a specific approach, and did not achieve as much (and thus were not as commended and seen as a model) as other Legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4185845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Uh uh uh, FW and the IA article state the Fists were used by the Emperor as a strategic reserve. Don't try and tongue in cheek that to make it sound like they sat behind the lines and didn't do much. It's axiomatic in strategy you use you best troops as a strategic reserve. Ask Frederick the Great, Napoleon, Rommel, Patton, and the plethora of brilliant commanders of modern warfare. Don't try and word it to make it sound like the Fists were anything besides one of the Emperor's most reliable legions. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4185857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Imperial Fists are the Emperor's Meat Shields, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4185865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Imperial Fists are the Emperor's Meat Shields, right? I suddenly feel the need to post this bookmarked page. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4185874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 By the end of the Great Crusade, the Emperor took the Imperial Fists back with him to Terra. Meanwhile the Luna Wolves led several other Legions to expand the Imperium to the galactic north, while the Ultramarines by themselves expanded to the south-east. When the Word Bearers were falling too far behind the other Legions in their accomplishments, the Emperor did not suggest that they should look to the Imperial Fists as a leading example. Â The Imperial Fists were no doubt very well suited for the role they were given. But they were not generally held up as an example for others to follow or to aspire to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4186194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 By the end of the Great Crusade, the Emperor took the Imperial Fists back with him to Terra. Meanwhile the Luna Wolves led several other Legions to expand the Imperium to the galactic north, while the Ultramarines by themselves expanded to the south-east. When the Word Bearers were falling too far behind the other Legions in their accomplishments, the Emperor did not suggest that they should look to the Imperial Fists as a leading example. Â The Imperial Fists were no doubt very well suited for the role they were given. But they were not generally held up as an example for others to follow or to aspire to. And that's perfectly fine. They don't have to be used as a model legion and they certainly didn't sit in their hands like you've made it sound. The two aren't mutually exclusive. You can kick serious :cuss, and not be the :cuss kickers the Emperor uses to teach lessons on :cuss kicking. You still kick :cuss. Â You always make it sound like the Imperial Fists were a legion like the Night Lords or Iron Hands. The 'porridge legions', too hot or too cold, but just not right. You know that's demonstratively false. In BL writing and the FW sources, the Fists are one of the Legions the Emperor relies on personally, alongside the Blood Angels and Soace Wolves. Guilliman and Horus weren't any less because the Emperor chose Dorn, Sanguinius, and Russ to be his 'staff'. Dorn isn't any less because the Emperor didn't send him out conquering anymore. Â You always make it sound like they are incompatible. I think you just dislike Imperial Fists because they never catch the flak the Ultras do for having almost identical characteristics and the more flawed Primarch. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4186258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 This tangent conversation got started because someone had described the Alpha Legion as "categorically" being "the best", to which I replied that there generally are three Legions which could be seen as the paragons, the examples of the potential a Legion can achieve. I did not name the three Legions initially, but they would be the Luna Wolves, the Ultramarines and the Emperor's Children. Those are specifically noted in various sources for the quality of the individual soldier and the universal effectiveness of their doctrines. They are also in some instances especially highlighted as examples of what Space Marines could be. The Imperial Fists only entered the conversation because someone else had assumed the Imperial Fists would have been one of those three Legions. Not entirely unreasonable given their reputation, but I would not have put them there because their doctrines are not quite as universal (they are close, not specialised as some other Legions are, but they are often pidgeonholed into a certain role) and they are not generally held up as a model for others to follow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4186284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 The Emperor clearly had Primarchs he would use for certain things. Like I said before, Dorn, Russ, and Sanguinius formed something like his 'staff'. Horus, the Lion, and Guilliman were his frontier generals, Vulkan and Magnus were something like counselors. Being in one of these groups doesn't take away from the Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4186309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegriss Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 I think people read into what is writen by fw and gw and bl I mean it's all a matter of perspective and taste and they obviously write ALL the lore so it can be disputed. let's not get to focused on "My legion is better then yours" it's all a matter of perspective and the universe the game exists in is meant to stratify people and cheer for there own team so no one should take it to heart or think that because Guy A said alpha legion IS the best that they are. let's try and get back on point before this thread gets nuked or some one gets upset  And as a side note the Imperial Fists are the best legion cause they won the heresy in overtime with half their team on the injured list and the Lion and Gilly where way out of position and off side Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4186311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naram-Sin Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 I think people read into what is writen by fw and gw and bl I mean it's all a matter of perspective and taste and they obviously write ALL the lore so it can be disputed. let's not get to focused on "My legion is better then yours" it's all a matter of perspective and the universe the game exists in is meant to stratify people and cheer for there own team so no one should take it to heart or think that because Guy A said alpha legion IS the best that they are. let's try and get back on point before this thread gets nuked or some one gets upset And as a side note the Imperial Fists are the best legion cause they won the heresy in overtime with half their team on the injured list and the Lion and Gilly where way out of position and off side Too bad Iron Cage happens * Go back to Medrengard with a package of pop-corn* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4186317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Happened to both legions tho ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4186535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegriss Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 did any one watch how the Jays beat Baltimore 15-2 to clinche the first spot in the lueague in that double header. then Baltimore won the second game but it didn't matter cause it was to little to late... that's kinda like the iron cage ...it just didn't really matter Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4186556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarus1138 Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 I'm very interested in the cultural influences seen in the various legions, maybe we can move the "my legion is just as good as yours, and these three are the best" discussion to another thread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4186571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 did any one watch how the Jays beat Baltimore 15-2 to clinche the first spot in the lueague in that double header. then Baltimore won the second game but it didn't matter cause it was to little to late... that's kinda like the iron cage ...it just didn't really matter  That actually made me laugh and honestly it's true.  Sure, the Fists got their butts handed to them but in the end it just didn't matter because the war was already won.  Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4186581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naram-Sin Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Well actually was the prove that Iron Warrios >>> Yellow Birds but this it's just me, who want to provoke some loyalist and turn them to the dark side Baaack on topic : the salamanders have for sure some tribalistic and shamanistic feel, but for me not from a specific culture, but the concept as whole: a series of trials and rituals with the meaning to bound and reconcile the social group, in this case, the people of Nocturne and than the Legion, infact was this behaviour one of the reason that the Salamanders totaly loock the door from the Word bearers' influence Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4186592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 I was looking around at older cultures recently out of interest for this very topic, and one point that I hadn't been aware of before: there was a an ancient civilisation around Lebanon actually called the "Phoenicians" (by the Greeks at least), which was known for it's purple dyes (known as the "purple people"). Â Sorry if this is well-known already, but I was ignorant of it until recently and found it an interesting little bit of trivia in connection with the Emperor's Children :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4186903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 The Phoenicians became the Carthaginians. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4186922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 Double post Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314182-legion-cultural-influences/page/9/#findComment-4187001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.