Tactics versus Khorne Daemonkin (KDK)

[Emicus]

One of my regular opponents has taken to playing Khorne Daemonkin, and I just can't seem to wrap my head around how I could possibly beat him with Imperial Guard. Granted I have a small force so far, and if I want to beat him up I'll take Grey Knights, but all the proxies and mental-imagery I've tried have all lead to the same conclusion - getting stomped.


So what's your tactics vs​ Khorne Daemonkin? Unit counters? Stuff? Let us get something rolling.
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1. Bloodtithe. Guard has a lot of units which means feeding him a lot of bloodtithe. To boot every little 'victory' you accomplish by murdering the snot out of one of his units he goes 'woop that's a point, FNP or Bloodthirster heaven here we go!'

 

2. Destroyer weapon Bloodthirster. I can't touch this gakking daemon. He's flying so it's snapshots or dedicated anti-air, but he WANTS to be shot in the air in order to get grounded and able to charge right away instead of landing and waiting a turn. He's extremely fast (flying, and 12" jump when landed), and we play with a LOT of terrain. He eats tanks and guardsmen alike for breakfast, and with a 3+ armour, 5++ invulnerable and 5+ FNP he's a tough cookie with T6 and I believe 6 wounds?

3. Puppies. Khorne Hounds are cheap as chips, fast as blazes, 2 wound, 5+ invuln daemonsave and the 5+ FNP... Thanks to formation they often rock furious charge, rage and hammer of wrath to boot. Only thing I've found that works here so far is tarpitting with Armoured Sentinels, but because of his speed he almost needs to let me do it.​​

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[Lukash_]

I cannot recommend Wyverns enough. They will rip Flesh Hounds and other light infantry like no other. AP6 isn't an issue due to lack of armor saves on daemons.

[HenricusTyranicus]

1. Combined squads.

 

2. ignoring/tarpitting with fearless conscripts

 

3. Demolisher siege tank for some lovely instant death.

Oh, and second the point about Wyverns. 

[librisrouge]

My advice against KDK is to ignore D-Thirsters. I know that they're frighteningly powerful but only on the ground. Like you said, they want to be shot up in the sky in order to be grounded. Don't do what the enemy wants, ever, unless they're an idiot and don't play idiots (its mean and beneath you.) While the amount of terrain is always a big issue, they will always have to be on the ground, doing all of nothing, for a whole turn before they become useful. If they want to jump around on the ground, then fine, blast him to the warp. If they want to play pigeon, let them, I'm sure its nice up there.

 

As far as Flesh Hounds, you nailed it with Armored Sentinels. If I played KDK more often I'd field more of them, really. Consider getting two squads of them, at minimum. They are generally effective anyway and are especially useful here in tarpiting those hounds.

 

Wyverns are super good this edition and doubly so against an army like KDK with few, if any, vehicles and reliance on invuls instead of armor. 

 

Lastly, look into the Thunderer Siege Tank. It is cheaper than the demolisher Russ and packs the same punishing firepower that eats multi-wound models for breakfast. Plus, it helps to have that S10 around if he takes soul grinders or land raiders.

[Captain Caine 24th]

Despite rumors to the contrary, assault is not dead. I think Daemonkin is a good codex. I think a key point is to buy time for your real killpower/firepower. Of course that's far easier said than done. Knowing how my guard shoot, I'll hit 30% of the time, half of that will wound, and the rest will be saved. Meanwhile I'm getting overrun. So, let's see if we can figure this out. 

 

I've noticed that moving units forward can create a sort of 'leap frog effect.' Generally an assault army will try to use as much cover as possible while running up the board. By moving units forward you might just be feeding them units to get locked in combat with during your shooting phase. This might not be the case, but just be cognizant of it. I mean if you can feed him one cheap guard squad to trap him in a kill box of plasma vets and and an executioner, that'd be ok. 

 

One response might be concentric rings or lines of units to slow down the assault. the idea would be that as the enemy wins assaults, they'll just end up in front of the next set of your guns. I'm just not sure if a static deployment works well. If you play maelstrom, you want to be moving to objectives. It also seems passive, and not in a good way--as in it allows the enemy to dictate where he goes on the board. 

 

Deploying to the rearmost edge of the table might be one option to buy time, but you'll need to worry about infiltrators and deep strikers. Cheap troops can effectively fill gaps in your deployment (no greater than 5" to prevent drop pods, but i suppose that's not a problem against Daemonkin). Also consider that the points spent on strangely deployed 'bubble wrap' units to protect your assets might reduce the effectiveness of that unit to perform a task. And, it's difficult to deploy quickly with lots of troops given varied terrain and a clever opponent (I think this is what makes IG/AM hard to play as). 

 

In a different way, a single 'castle' style deployment might not be a good idea. Separate castles of deployment can create intersecting fields of fire and force target priority decisions for the enemy. Well, that and it's advantageous to an assault army to find the enemy in one spot as they have limited range. (on a related note, spread those objective markers out, make the enemy work for it).

 

There's always hope for hammer and anvil deployment. 

 

Sentinels are a good choice. The tarpit idea works. It's slowed or even stopped my death company many times. 

 

Bullgryns half slab shields, and half power mauls with a priest might be good. But, I hate to recommend assault units against a superior assault army. 

 

As I recall Khorne's not all that keen on psykers. That might mean primaris psykers will be marginally better suited against that army. Divination is always good for ignore cover, 4+ invuln, rerolls or mass rending--which might even be good against that bloodthirster. 

 

Don't forget the old S8 AP3 leman russ can really inspire fear for an assault list. Against a lot of armies it may not be the best tank, but If he plans on moving up the table, he must constantly consider that template will be in range. Though generally mechanized forces will face some real problems against a fast assault army with their rear armor being 10. 

 

Is a vulture with punisher cannons an option?

[HenricusTyranicus]

Of course, you could also be a cheesemonger and bring several inquisitors with psychostroke grenades in several combined squads. Can you imagine how hilarious it'd be if the bloodthirster charged a squad with those, and got the fight on your opponents side result, and hit himself 4 times with a strength d axe? Dang, I'm laughing just writing that actually. And if you put those combined squads in front of the tanks, then the tanks can still shoot away while your poor opponent has completely lost the ability to assault anything at all. 

 

(Chuckle)

 

Course, that's probably nearly 150 points in inquisitors alone, but hey! Servo skulls. Hyper-accurate firing for the win. Set them up so that you can't remove a skull without being in targeting range of another.  

 

Edit: Fights on your side result doesn't work if there is only one model in the combat. Oh well..... still would be remarkably funny.

[Emicus]

Wyverns force saves for sure, but with 5++/5+++, unless my napkin is lying to me, approx. every 10 wounds caused results in ~1 failed save. Even without accounting for hits, wounds, models spread 2" apart, we know Wyverns hit amazingly well, 20 wounds are needed to kill one 16point dog. And I dare say you'll get at most 2 turns of shooting.

 

Sentinels work wonders a​s tarpits to be sure, no argument there, but the issue is that they aren't going to let you. Doggies are so fast they'll run circles around them while the melta chaos bikers roll up and turn 'em into so much slag, and even if they don't the dogs are still miles away.

 

It's just that amazing combination of 5++/5+++ that keeps the entire army rocking.​ Paying points for guard to get 'the good stuff' with high strength, low ap, whatever, just doesn't matter 'cause it's invuln city.

 

 

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[Emicus]

As for dealing with the Bloodthirster I'm completely on board with not playing to what my opponent wants me to do. But he's going to land eventually (when everything is tied up by dogs, etc) and eat an entire tankline without breaking a sweat. And when he's up there coasting in the sky, using clouds for pillows, I don't think it's a good idea to put paperbirds up there as they'll get slapped. I don't have any flyers myself, but this is my perception.

 

And when it lands, spending a turn catching his breath, he'll be sitting in/on/around cover, with the guardline ravaged by vicious beasts, soulgrinder templates, bikers, lords that turn into more thirsters when they perish. With a 3+/5++/5+++, T6 and ​5W I don't see how it can be stopped aside from instant death, which we have a very limited access to. Heck you need 10 wounds caused for every wound he takes and that is when he stands in the open, not in cover. In cover it's even worse. That's 189 Lasgun shots per wound @ bs3. It's 18 shots from plasma at bs4. But when will any of these weapons get to fire, if he hangs back until say turn 4 while setting everything else up?

He's a big red herring, shooting him out of the sky is fools play, but he will land eventually, and he will wreck face, so can we really ignore that? Like ignoring a grizzly eating your face. ​ That's why a 50man fearless conscript squad sounds like a brilliant idea, it'll hold him off til the game is over, but it's never going to happen as the opponent will happily mulch the conscripts with something else beforehand.
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@HenricusTyranicus​ I do apologise but I wanted to keep this tactics discussion pure IG vs KDK, as if I were to bring anything else I'd just go Grey Knights which hardcounters them so hard it's embarassing.

[HenricusTyranicus]

 

Wyverns force saves for sure, but with 5++/5+++, unless my napkin is lying to me, approx. every 10 wounds caused results in ~1 failed save. Even without accounting for hits, wounds, models spread 2" apart, we know Wyverns hit amazingly well, 20 wounds are needed to kill one 16point dog. And I dare say you'll get at most 2 turns of shooting.

 

Sentinels work wonders a​s tarpits to be sure, no argument there, but the issue is that they aren't going to let you. Doggies are so fast they'll run circles around them while the melta chaos bikers roll up and turn 'em into so much slag, and even if they don't the dogs are still miles away.

 

It's just that amazing combination of 5++/5+++ that keeps the entire army rocking.​ Paying points for guard to get 'the good stuff' with high strength, low ap, whatever, just doesn't matter 'cause it's invuln city.

 

 

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I think your math is slightly wrong. 5++...2/3 of wounds get through. 5+++...two thirds of remaining wounds get through. Ergo, 2/3 times 2/3, 4/9. So only about 4.5 wounds needed to kill a hound, not 20.

 

That being said...assuming hounds are toughness 3, which I don't actually know, I'd recommend a Leman Russ Eradicator. Instant death, removing the 5+++, and ignores cover, helping to ensure it doesn't get worse then a 5++ save.  

[HenricusTyranicus]

1/2 times 1/6 times 1/3 times 2/3 equals 2/108, so technically only 54 lasgun shots per wound on him. Yay....improve your odds with some bring it down.

[Emicus]

Yap. Gotcha. Napkin did everything backwards. So it's ~4.4 per wound suffered, or ~9 per killed dog. So roughly twice as good as initially thought but still... And they're toughness four.

[HenricusTyranicus]

And I do apologize for my mania of throwing in allies. It's....a bit of an addiction actually.

[HenricusTyranicus]

4.4 per killed dog, not per wound. 4 out of 9 wounds get through, so 9 will kill two dogs.

 

Still hard to do with t4...hm...I echo trying to bring psykers. Fight back with your own FNP, and twinlinking. Also, recommend missile launcher teams.

[Emicus]

Shows me right for trying to bring MATH into things. Got to give the napkin a stern talking to and figure out where I went wrong. Gimme a tic :)

[Emicus]

Take 10 wounds
the invuln saves 33% of those
6.6 left
the FNP saves 33% of those
4.3 left

Yep. You're right, I've been working with the saving percentages as the wounding bits instead. So 10 wounds is 2 dogs a 2 wounds each.​​
2 Wyverns should be 8 s​hots right? Reckon you can get 2 hits per if he spreads out properly, so 16 hits, fail half but reroll so that should be 12 wounds or 2 1/2 dogs (~40 points worth). Two volleys of that, at I dare say max before he's either eating them, or in combat, and you haven't earned the Wyverns back yet.

Does that seem right?​
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[HenricusTyranicus]

I dare say so. However, if your opponent can assault backfield tanks by the second turn, then I, as a Black Templar, want to talk to him :P 

How about fortifications? I bet your army could massively benefit from some tanglewire lines. 

[Emicus]

Deploy at edge + scout move + beasts. Next turn move and whack, right into the bubblewrap which is all he needs in order to not be shot at, then when the screen falls apart you may get another round of shooting depending if they fold in his or your turn, and then it's all "so I've got Hammer of Wrath + 4xS5 attacks per base and you've got rear armour 10. Buh-bye.

[HenricusTyranicus]

You could try flyer spam. Completely would mess with an assault based army. 

[WarriorFish]

Not much I can add but to reiterate not playing his game. If he wants you to shoot his flying MC wait until it lands and unleash hell ;)

[CyderPirate]

Standard LRBTs will help clear out the hounds, as the big bases will get you plenty of hits, and the S8 will negate their FNP.

 

Apart from that, you'll need some speed bumps, to slow him down from getting into assault range - just be careful you don't end up helping them across the board with charge/consolidate moves. 

 

With invulnerables across the board, its barely worth it to take high S/low AP weapons - plasma and melta will often just bounce. I'd be inclined to go down the route of platoons, buffed with psykers. FRFSRF, when its twin-linked, or counts as rending against the enemy can put out some serious hurt, even on the big fella. Throw in a couple of sneaky lascannons and you're sorted! If the enemy has got too many layers of defence - armour, cover, invulnerable, FNP, I tend to find the best way is just to throw as many dice as you can at them. 

[T0MMY]

How many points we talking here? - I like the idea of platoons with 6 troop squads moshed into two 30 man squads with flamers and power weapons, maybe a priest each... and maybe a 50 man conscript squad too? Haha a lot of models to move though - not may points mind you... back them up with plasma veteran squads or maybe vets with shotguns and heavy flamer. Give them chimeras for objective grabbing and an extra HW. You could throw in a couple of HW squads to the platoon but, as everyone says, Wyverns would do. Then some tanks.

[librisrouge]

It is also one of my experiences that KDK are one of the few armies that the Baneblade is great against. They don't have the shooting to take it out and only the Soul Grinder, some CSM stuff, and D Thirsters are real threats in melee. Able bubble wrapping and you've got a unit that can shoot giant chunks out of hound units thanks to its main gun, the demolisher cannon, and plenty of other weapons (in my experience, those heavy bolters do real damage to bikes in their numbers.)