Naram-Sin Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Evening comrades, recently I read betrayal and so the EC fluff...so I wanna make this clear: it's just my (and probably ignorant) opinion, so hope to make a good discussion and see someone else point, but after read it and taking into account all others fluff I know of the fall of the Emperor's Children doesn't make any sense, like at all. First : I read the BG in Betrayal and I was crush: what was know in the past about the Legion pre-heresy was nothing compare to the beautiful work FW has done to remake their history: they are a paragon of war, of nobility,and most of all, loyalty: the book is very clear to this point, the EC was one of the most loyal and trusted legion by the Emperor himself , in the pinnacle like the Imperial Fists or the Wolves. Not only this but its make clear one thing more: the EC and Fulgrim were fanatically convince that the human was the pinnacle of perfection, that they were one of the most zelous destroyers of xenos and rebels. Second: Fulgrim himself is present not only as a master swordman and a tactical genious but the thing that struck me most is his kindness, yes you heard right: he was not a warlord or a tyrant, but a saviour to the people of Chemos, actually quite like Vulkan...and then was this scene: Fulgrim that for the first time see his sons, barely 200 that stand proud ... and he kneels before them and make that awesome speech... this hit me like a truck , damn the only primarch so close to him his Vulkan! And than came the narration of their fall by Black Libray...good god what a horrible mess of bad writing: 1 In every book BEFORE their fall they are show pretty much like this: a bunch of idiots, vanaglorious and arrogants( except for Tarvitz) with many madmens like Lucius...I mean look at Eidolon: is show as an idiot that do nothing but fail his primarch when he is a Lord Commander, lords of war that are going to stab them self if they fail only one time...yeah very like the Eidolon in the books 2 The fall itself: yeah Slaanesh seems the most smart or powerful of the Chaos Gods, just gonna need a sword and bam, one primarch down, also drugs and weirdo music and tha others things... Wait what? Why Fulgrim is portray so weak of mind and body when he had no problem at all before: he is not Angron or Mortarion, he doesnt hate the Emperor nor the Ideals of the Imperium and all of this is worst when was him who command to exterminate the Laer because their were a bunch of xenos...but then suddlenly after kill them so many times he just enter in the temple and "oh look at this beauty" ... 3 And all of this to make them...dangeours to the rebellion himself: yeah good plan Horus : before you had a tactical genoius and probably the only primarch of your side that truly follow you (maybe Mortarion but no so sure) and a very powerful legion...after you have a bunch of weirdos that even try to kill your chosen man for destroy the Terra's defenses and dont follow any plan, seriously they are worst than word eaters... Look I know the flaws of the III and Betrayl is master even to tell this...but so? I mean...what loyalist legion doesnt have some errors or problems even worst than that of the EC? BA,IH,SW and the list goes on... What I try do here is to look at the bland make of the story of their fall, is just seems that all of this loyal knights is just wash away in a matter of minutes by a talking sword, some drugs...maybe I was just blow up about them, heck now I like them so much that I was thinking to make an army of loyalist EC right now, but I want to know if someone else think the same or is just me Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I love Fulgrim :) One of the best HH novels so far imo^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4183907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I was also a big fan of Fulgrim and I though McNeil did a good job of showing him slowly begin influenced by the daemon. Â I was less happy when they showed Fulgrim has being control of himself in later novels but that's the way the cookie crumbles. Â I felt like it was far more tragic if "good" Fulgrim was stuck in the deepest corners of his mind while the daemon was running around with his body murdering the Imperium he loved. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4183937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratboy1664 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 As I understand it Slanesh led him to corruption the following way. Â 1. It showed him there was no such thing as perfection, and that the only goal was striving for perfection. 2. Therefore the Emperor was not perfect. 3. If the Emperor wasn't perfect then his marines weren't either and so it was Fulgrim's responsibility to bring them closer to perfection. 4. Fulgrim starts bending a few rules. 5. Becomes possessed. 6. Guitars made out of spinal columns Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4183948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naram-Sin Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 As I understand it Slanesh led him to corruption the following way. Â 1. It showed him there was no such thing as perfection, and that the only goal was striving for perfection. 2. Therefore the Emperor was not perfect. 3. If the Emperor wasn't perfect then his marines weren't either and so it was Fulgrim's responsibility to bring them closer to perfection. 4. Fulgrim starts bending a few rules. 5. Becomes possessed. 6. Guitars made out of spinal columns But why he must think that and transexual god of pain and pleasure is perfection? And also, Slaanesh didnt show Fulgrim some "unspeakable truth" like Lorgar, I mean He loves the Emperor much as Dorn or Russ, but nop drugs wins everything! -_- Its seems thats could work with any other primarchs, just pick the sword and done. Why the chaos gods dont make magic sword for everyone? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4183957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Chaos made all of Fulgrims strengths into weaknesses. It's what chaos does. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4183961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Yup, Fulgrim was very disappointing. Going from the older fluff of 'Horus convinces Fulgrim Horus is right because Horus is that good' to 'Fulgrim's too stupid to realise a talking sword is a bad thing' was a major misstep imo. And the whole 'getting possessed' thing was grade A derp. At least they apparently fixed that one later. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4183982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I was hoping the EC would've fallen because they didn't like the mortals ruling over them, which Horus would've usedl to turn him. Inside he got a Jackson Pollock talking to him through his sword. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4183988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratboy1664 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 He doesn't think Slanesh is perfection, Slanesh shows him there is no such thing as perfection only the desire to get as close to it as possible. Â Fabius Bile is the real agent of Slanesh in this, not the sword of the Laer. Â Fulgrim basically backed himself and his Legion into such a position that if he did tell Big E everything he had done then he would likely have become another lost legion so he sides with Horus with the added benefit of lots of pleasure along the way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4184036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TennisBall Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 The new fluff has a number of the legions heading towards chaos on their own which is a good thing rather than super bad Horus just being a really good talker. It means that the legions were prepared to follow Horus because of how far they themselves had already changed. Angron introduced the nails, Fulgrim had allowed Bile to experiment on his legion, Magnus didn't understand the true nature of his pact to save his legion. Emperor's Children, Word Bearers (post Monarchia) and Thousand Sons were all heading towards the darkside anyway, it was just a matter of time. Turning Horus is what tipped the balance, with him the other traitor legions were cozened into following his lead, the setting up of the brotherhoods, using the Word Bearers to communicate with the legions. Instead of four (including Dark Angels) inter legion civil wars, thanks to Horus you get a galaxy wide civil war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4184102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 All Slanesh had to do was stroke Fulgrim's ego. He had spent the better part of the crusade under the wing of his fellow primarchs, and that wound his pride deeply. When he finally had a legion of his own, he was thristing for glory. You can see this in how wreckless he was. He was a tactical genius, but far from wise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4184134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Lord Loki Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 I think people misinterprete Filgrims apparent modesty in kneeling as being humble. I think it was just calculated to stroke his own ego. Act of humility = astartes worshiping the ground he walks on. Â I think the best example of his character was with the sculptor in fulgrim. He asks "what is wrong with this piece" expecting the answer to be "nothing its perfect" and then throws his toys out of the cott because the sculptor gives him honest critism of the work Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4184285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naram-Sin Posted September 30, 2015 Author Share Posted September 30, 2015 I think people misinterprete Filgrims apparent modesty in kneeling as being humble. I think it was just calculated to stroke his own ego. Act of humility = astartes worshiping the ground he walks on. I think the best example of his character was with the sculptor in fulgrim. He asks "what is wrong with this piece" expecting the answer to be "nothing its perfect" and then throws his toys out of the cott because the sculptor gives him honest critism of the work Well no, there isn't nothing to prove this, he was just proud of his sons. Tenniball what did you write make sense, I mean they actually betray, but is the poor execution I blame, better the old way at this point: Horus convince Fulgrim because He is that good, I cand stand this, but not the black library version of the story. Also there is the factor of the events after the corruption that I dont get. The EC in the new story are totally futile to Horus, even dangerous Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4184657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 I think people misinterprete Filgrims apparent modesty in kneeling as being humble. I think it was just calculated to stroke his own ego. Act of humility = astartes worshiping the ground he walks on. I think the best example of his character was with the sculptor in fulgrim. He asks "what is wrong with this piece" expecting the answer to be "nothing its perfect" and then throws his toys out of the cott because the sculptor gives him honest critism of the work Well no, there isn't nothing to prove this, he was just proud of his sons. Tenniball what did you write make sense, I mean they actually betray, but is the poor execution I blame, better the old way at this point: Horus convince Fulgrim because He is that good, I cand stand this, but not the black library version of the story. Also there is the factor of the events after the corruption that I dont get. The EC in the new story are totally futile to Horus, even dangerous they were always dangerous and uncontrollable ... i just say Siege of Terra ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4184668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naram-Sin Posted September 30, 2015 Author Share Posted September 30, 2015 But that was the final stage for all the traitor legions, even now the only other deamon primarch is Angron( and not even volountary), but the EC the right day after BAM full heresy, full "We are amplified!!" not sound right to me(uh what a bad joke), but it's just my opinion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4184708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 they were all changed at the Xenos planet - if you remember the music there, that already corrputed the ones who where at the temple - even the mortal ones^^ Â they also showed the change with the remembrancers^^ Â the mara viglia was just the final thing who made them full slaaneshii^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4184710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 they were all changed at the Xenos planet - if you remember the music there, that already corrputed the ones who where at the temple - even the mortal ones^^ Â they also showed the change with the remembrancers^^ Â the mara viglia was just the final thing who made them full slaaneshii^^ That just proves what our mothers collectively warned us about. Rock music is corrupting out youth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4184727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Carnelian Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 The thing that makes Fulgrim's fall so thematically potent lies in the fact that he basically stood for the Emperor as much as any one primarch could have stood for him. Unlike so many other primarchs, Fulgrim values the opinions of the humans around him and possesses a sense of empathy that not even Vulkan possesses. Other primarchs can care about humans but they still take something of a dim view of their perspective, with only the Khan even coming close to the esteem that Fulgrim has for ordinary. He saved Chemos and made it into a center of culture, a feat that really exemplifies his humanity.  But that's why it becomes tragic that he falls. Whether you think Fulgrim works as a novel and depicts his fall in a reasonable manner, only you can determine that. But arguing that he simply should not have turned underscores just what makes his betrayal work. That mentality, that faith, that empathy makes his fall terrible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4184741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Â they were all changed at the Xenos planet - if you remember the music there, that already corrputed the ones who where at the temple - even the mortal ones^^ Â they also showed the change with the remembrancers^^ Â the mara viglia was just the final thing who made them full slaaneshii^^ That just proves what our mothers collectively warned us about. Rock music is corrupting out youth. Â :D you made my day xD .... someday i'll make a crazy noise marine army xD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4184765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naram-Sin Posted September 30, 2015 Author Share Posted September 30, 2015 The thing that makes Fulgrim's fall so thematically potent lies in the fact that he basically stood for the Emperor as much as any one primarch could have stood for him. Unlike so many other primarchs, Fulgrim values the opinions of the humans around him and possesses a sense of empathy that not even Vulkan possesses. Other primarchs can care about humans but they still take something of a dim view of their perspective, with only the Khan even coming close to the esteem that Fulgrim has for ordinary. He saved Chemos and made it into a center of culture, a feat that really exemplifies his humanity. But that's why it becomes tragic that he falls. Whether you think Fulgrim works as a novel and depicts his fall in a reasonable manner, only you can determine that. But arguing that he simply should not have turned underscores just what makes his betrayal work. That mentality, that faith, that empathy makes his fall terrible. Very good writing here Sir That's is exactly my thought, too bad no one gonna write a pre-heresy novel for him Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4184766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Carnelian Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 You have my fullest sympathies. I wish they would go back in time a bit more often and show us the primarchs at their best. Sometimes one can forget just how noble (in their own ways) all of the primarchs were in their prime.  I would love a pre-Heresy look at Fulgrim. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4184777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratboy1664 Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Once he went down the path to damnation Fulgrim did not share Horus' desire of an imperium ruled by the Warmaster. Fulgrim and his legion were all about the collective pursuit of perfection which became perverted by the individuals lust for experience (pain/pleasure). Hence as soon as Fulgrim allowed Fabius to mess with Astartes gene-seed (which they didn't share with other traitor legions) he merely aligned himself with whoever would allow him to continue doing what he wanted to do with the least interference. Â Even within the Legion there is a clear pursuit of personal over collective aims from when they were loyalist, so the speed of their fall should be of little surprise. Â Fulgrim is one of the characters I think the HH series have fleshed out really well, he is so complex that generalisations just don't apply. E.G. Even his own Legion leaders thought he was possessed by a Daemon when he actually wasn't (according to Fulgrim himself ! Salt at the ready). Â Fulgrim may not have fallen the deepest, but he did fall the furthest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4184890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naram-Sin Posted October 2, 2015 Author Share Posted October 2, 2015 Once he went down the path to damnation Fulgrim did not share Horus' desire of an imperium ruled by the Warmaster. Fulgrim and his legion were all about the collective pursuit of perfection which became perverted by the individuals lust for experience (pain/pleasure). Hence as soon as Fulgrim allowed Fabius to mess with Astartes gene-seed (which they didn't share with other traitor legions) he merely aligned himself with whoever would allow him to continue doing what he wanted to do with the least interference.  Even within the Legion there is a clear pursuit of personal over collective aims from when they were loyalist, so the speed of their fall should be of little surprise.  Fulgrim is one of the characters I think the HH series have fleshed out really well, he is so complex that generalisations just don't apply. E.G. Even his own Legion leaders thought he was possessed by a Daemon when he actually wasn't (according to Fulgrim himself ! Salt at the ready).  Fulgrim may not have fallen the deepest, but he did fall the furthest. So do you think the total lack of strategy and tactical valour in the EC after the fall it's more their's own corruption or Slaanesh's? Because this is another problem I have ( and one problem of chaos corruption in general) : it's seems to me that a Slaanesh's follower is more mad that one of Khorne  , how Horus supposed to win the war if just after the rebellion two of his legions are going down the all"charge causally and kill everything/ play with the civilians meanwhile loyalists shoot at us"? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4186314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Naram-sin: After reading your initial post, I can definitely understand part of your confusion. Â One of the first things you have to understand is that first, there was Fulgrim. Then there was Angel Exterminatus. And then there was the glory that was Betrayal. Â Fulgrim was very early in a series that was only supposed to be three books long and as a result it had a rather..... weak foundation. Angel Exterminatus then built along that same foundation, so you end up with a Tower of Pisa type thing. Â What FW then did was take all of the current background from Rogue Trader to what was then the most current background(end of 5th Edition I believe?) and then compiled it all together and created what was in Betrayal. Â Going by your post, you were exposed to this in reverse order, so it ended up looking like a degradation of the background when it was actually the reverse. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4186332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naram-Sin Posted October 2, 2015 Author Share Posted October 2, 2015 Oh actually I didnt know the order and the time of the books! That enlight a few things XD thanks Kol(can I call you Kol?) also I have to consider that bl books are just narration of the writer point of view, where Fw books are there to provide a (very good) insight of each legion and primarch...how lucky that McNeill likes Iron Warrios Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314293-fall-of-fulgrim-and-his-sons/#findComment-4186363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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