DA Rhinos and Mech in general

[Frater Cornelius]

Dem Rhinos! While I talk about their use in a CAD, since I generally do not run the Lion's Blade, but it applies to it as well.

 

In my eyes, their greatest weakness is being wrecked in your deployments zone, robbing you of your mobility. If they wreck in the center or near an objective, it is all fine and dandy. That is the reason I rarely run Rhinos. However, I feel that DA got better chances here.

The Dark Shroud gives them a guaranteed 3+ cover save in ruins and 4+ save at most other times. They also get a 4+ save if they pop smoke with a DS nearby.

This could potentially be a solid style, where you run a RWSS, a CAD with Rhinos and a few RW units for as fast hitters. It would have solid staying power, which is important these days. This also applies to other AV elements like the Sicaran.

 

What do you think, is it worth trying CAD Mech + RW in that context?

[aura_enchanted]

mechanized CAD is an interesting concept, the biggest issue i feel is that drop pods will get you where you want to go, while rhinos only might, they might also get you further but that isnt necissary, i feel that if your going to use rhino's take them because the drop pod isnt needed. i use them to shuffle around say scouts or devestators, units that either dont travel far or didnt necissarily need their movement benefits. they also make for swaky cover generation, such as parking them between the enemy and a unit so they cant shoot him. i actually did this in one game and parked a rhino in front of a vindicator literally pinned in a corner between some buildings and he had to sit there and do nothing the rest of the game. because if he shot the rhino he wouldnt ever shoot anything else, and if he didnt shoot hit the gun was just as well off

[Interrogator Stobz]

I never take Rhinos for the reason you mentioned, I love to spam TLLC Razorbacks though, combined with as much other AV13 mech as I can fit in an army to draw fire. 

PA dudes can move and run nearly as far as when they are transported so gun platforms and mobile shields are more important to my play style, My PA do usually start embarked, but I don't rely on it nor do I want something that cannot 'touch' the enemy from the first turn.

 

If you want transport to the other side of the table for some reason, like mentioned by Aura, Pods are the way to go.

[Frater Cornelius]

The reason why I would prefer Rhinos is 1) Interceptor and 2) the Tacs are fodder once you arrive, while they are protected by the Rhino while inside and since it is much more likely to be wrecked, it will provide a solid line of sight blocker upon disembarkation.

 

But Stobz, that is a solid point on the additional Razors going around with walking PA. Worth considering. Combat Squad them and let the 5 dudes with the Heavy Weapon sit back and fire it, while the other 5 with Plasmas and forward.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yup; combat squads with static half with LCs and the plasma totin' assaulty half inside TLLC/Razors for first turn GodHammer Supremacy...  and when you only pay for the TLLC in double Demi they're chock full of win.

[Frater Cornelius]

Has the tactic paid off against higher end lists? Specifically the CAD version. This is something I would be willing to try. Mix RW and GW.

[march10k]

Oh, yeah, they work great against invisible tig/marn grav cent stars

I think the concept of an AV11 transport for power armored troops is fundamentally flawed. Vehicles with troop capacity do three things...they move troops, they shield troops from enemy fire, and they shoot. Which of these is a rhino good at? It doesn't move "faster enough" relative to a running marine to justify inclusion/points cost. The added protection afforded by the hull of the vehicle over an above the protection afforded by the passenger's armor is laughable in comparison to, say, a guardsman hiding behind the front armor of a chimera. And a stormbolter? C'mon, man!

At least the razorback has a real gun on it...and the drop pod gets you where you need to be a lot faster than boots do...the rhino...fails.

[Interrogator Stobz]

If you play Double Demi Lions Blade and add the RWSS (with LSV) as your required +1 you can protect your MSU armies rear with excellent AP2 pieplate interceptor shooting, I have destroyed all my opponents with similar lists and need to stop taking it. My mates are not having fun against it.

Now granted I don't face the truly top tier lists often because my mates are very competative without being WAAC listers, but this one has so much power I'm sure it would at least hold it's own. Give it a go.

[SnakeChisler]

A Rhino is as durable as a tank in my gaming group and at 35 points it's cheaper than 3 marines

 

+ it only causes 1 wound when it's hit by a blast weapons not 5.

 

What self respecting marine would walk?

 

GW agrees with me free transports for all \o/

 

Well assuming you can afford them joking aside I never play greenwing without transports

[shabbadoo]

Dem Rhinos! While I talk about their use in a CAD, since I generally do not run the Lion's Blade, but it applies to it as well.

 

In my eyes, their greatest weakness is being wrecked in your deployments zone, robbing you of your mobility. If they wreck in the center or near an objective, it is all fine and dandy. That is the reason I rarely run Rhinos. However, I feel that DA got better chances here.

The Dark Shroud gives them a guaranteed 3+ cover save in ruins and 4+ save at most other times. They also get a 4+ save if they pop smoke with a DS nearby.

This could potentially be a solid style, where you run a RWSS, a CAD with Rhinos and a few RW units for as fast hitters. It would have solid staying power, which is important these days. This also applies to other AV elements like the Sicaran.

 

What do you think, is it worth trying CAD Mech + RW in that context?

I have previously run one Rhino with a 10-man Tac squad and a Razorback with a Command Squad, backed up by a Darkshroud lurking behind, along with a Squadron of two Land Speeders (I would add a third Land Speeder and run it as a RWSS now).  The Rhinos provide cover to the speeders, plus everything gains Stealth from the DarkShroud, the Darkshroud itself has a 2+ cover save from cover and Shrouded, and everything can fire to full effect when it moves.  What I usually do is have the tanks gun their engines and move 12" at least once, the land speeders easily keeping pace with their own move of 12" (and shoot to full effect as well).  In succeeding turns, everything does what it wishes, though the tanks do continue to move so as to provide cover, and be an anti-assault barrier, for the speeders.  The speeders themselves provide supporting fire to the transported units, which by that time have disembarked and are busy taking objectives/killing the enemy.  It is a nice set-up for smaller point games, and would work well with a Demi-Company.

[Frater Cornelius]

Good points all around.

 

@ march - The Rhino has three functions. Dampen alpha strike by forcing the enemy to shoot the hull first and when it is wrecked, you get to 'reposition' yourself. It gets you 12"-18" closer to the enemy while still inside. It also forces the enemy to open it up before he can shoot the juicy stuff. That is usually one less Scatterbike unit to worry about. It wastes enemy shooting and resources. You also get to use it as Los blocker when wrecked.

 

Anyway, I have been toying with the idea of a shooty DA list with Bikes, Rhinos or Razors, the RWSS and maybe a Dread unit. If I get the possibility, I might look into it.

[march10k]

Yeah, I get all that, Immer...when it works.  When you're not immobilized or destroyed in your deployment zone on turn one and when your opponent doesn't have an overabundance of S6/7 weapons.  

 

When I field my IG, I love seeing rhino spam...it's a couple hundred points not spent on killy stuff, and it's child's play to pop the can with a dismounted autocannon or a chimera or two before pieplating the contents with a russ.  From the guard player's perspective, a rhino doesn't represent an obstacle to the destruction of the passengers, it represents one less grav cannon in the space marine list (or whatever else you'd buy for 35 points).  On the other hand, razorbacks, while no harder to kill, represent heavy weapons that can hurt me, and drop pods are deadly because they mean I have to bubble wrap the important stuff, reducing my effectiveness, then when the contents pop out of the pod, instead of killing the rhino and having at least two turns to kill the troops (to my front, where I can mass fires against them) inside before they can hurt me, I've got one turn to shoot them down with a small fraction of my force (because they're on my flank) before they get to kill a second unit of mine, probably the recipient of the bubble wrapping!

 

I don't look down on rhinos from the perspective of a DA player, I look down on them from the perspective of a DA opponent with plenty of AV-12-popping shooting (making AV11 child's play) who would rather see his opponent spend 35 points on a rhino than see it spent on almost anything else.  Compare rhino/razor to the cost/benefit of a chimera...AV12 protection for a full squad of flak armored troops, plus two heavy weapons to...AV11 protection for either a full squad of power armored troops for a couple plasma guns less, or AV11 for a demi squad plus one twinlinked heavy weapon for about the same cost as the chimmy...it doesn't add up.  

 

I'm not saying it's safe for space marines to footslog across the table, I'm saying rhinos are almost never better than drop pods, and I'd never take a razor that I had to pay for, although I'd happily pay for the weapons upgrades on a free one. 20 points for a godhammer is gold, even on AV11....but I wouldn't pay 75.

[Interrogator Stobz]

If you want competitive; March's advice is as golden as free Razorbacks with 20 point Godhammers, if you want nice then play Rhinos as point wasters.

PA dudes as we know die to everything these days, they get one chance, maybe two to deliver death, and Rhinos don't noticeably increase that chance despite their relatively cheap cost.

But it is fun to try to make them work so please use them if you like them, this isn't a black and white argument, it's all about shades of grey

[Frater Cornelius]

That is a fair assessment, from both of you. Thanks very much ;)

 

As far as 20pts Godhammer variants, are we talking LC just on the RB or a LC on the Tac unit as well? If so, on all Tacs? Or have some in Pods? I am getting curious about the Lion's Blade with this setup.

[Prot]

Oh I don't know... I would say the Battle Co design makes it much easier to stomach the shortcomings of the AV11.

 

Also since most of mine are always shooty upgreades, you're going to have to get within 48". Also being a bit of a fool perhaps, I take a Landraider in my Battle Co and something very surprising happened... I realized that flanking my best unit with 'free' AV 11 makes it last a lot longer.

 

It changes your playstyle when you have... 5-7 Razorbacks, plus 2-3 pods. It can be used to steer your opponent, snipe characters/special weapons etc.

 

The worst of it is a lot dies... a lot of it really dies fast. I am built to handle the high attrition rate, but still in kill points/first blood it can really be difficult. 

 

But I think your original thinking is spot on, which is why I say a battle co was so cleverly written. It portrays the marine as he was meant to be played; in large quantities with lots of transports. The 'tax' itself whether it be Ultra's or Dark Angels make it very hard to juice up your units, and over doing it means you have a lot of vanilla razorbacks and dudes running around. I think it's a very well thought out design. 

 

But looking at the Rhino in a sandbox scenario, then yea, I'd be inclined to agree with you. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

Immer: My Tactical Squads usually consist of Five dudes, Combi-Plasma and Plasma gun inside the free RB with 20pt TLLC. 115 points times six. My whole (reduced manpower) Company is only 1445 points, add tax dependent on total points played and it's a great starting point for a fluffy yet powerful army. I want to expand the squads up to full strength with another heavy, but points limits don't really allow it until over 3000 as you need some 'specialist' units as things get bigger.

 

Good points Prot mate, I also add a couple of pods when points allow.

[march10k]

What I would do in a double demi is 4 razors (2x TLLC and 2x TLAC) and four pods, with the two assault squads keeping their jump packs.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Nice, I generally put Comd squad with 5x special weapons in my pods but to save points your variation is great.

[Master Avoghai]

I see lots of you talking about RZB with TLLC (and also TLAC) but I don't see any suggestion for using the LC/TLPG turret...

 

Has it lost any point or is it just a matter of being obliged to buy the costly FW ones? :P

[Interrogator Stobz]

I like them Master A, and I am planning on getting two from FW to convert my last two Rhinos to Razors. It's been a long time coming (since Third Ed) but the new cool Razors have moved the conversion up the priority list.