Stevethepirate Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/style_images/1/spacer.gif Afternoon y'all,So I've started a Ravenwing army. I've got a whole bunch of regular bikes and speeders and I'm getting pretty keen to get some games under my belt. But... I've hit a bit of a wall in deciding what HQ to take, and whether Black Knights or a Command Squad is considered preferable.What would you guys consider to be the best combination...Option 1Sammael in LandspeederChaplain on bike with a unit of Black KnightsOption 2Sammael on jetbike with a RWing Command Squad?Option 3No Sammael at allChaplain on a Bike with either RWing or Command Squad? Option 4 Something I haven't even thought of?The list I have in mind is definitely shooting heavy. But I'd definitely like one combat capable unit. For me (with this army anyway), the HQ I choose is more dependent on the unit I take to support them. If I take a Black Knight unit, I'd certainly default to a chaplain (and maybe Sammael on speeder if points allow). If I take a command squad, Sammael on jetbike is a no brainer.So, I guess with that in mind, what unit which option do you think would best suit an army roughly built around the following...- 3 squads of bikers with attack bikes- 1 unit of 3 land speeder typhoons- 2 units of 1 speeder with dual meltas Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Hi Steve, good move on deciding to take the plunge into a RW army. They really are a lot of fun to play. For me, the go to HQ options for RW are Sammael on his jetbike & a mastery level 2 Librarian on a bike, escorted by a RW Command Squad. I always max out the CS with 6 models and take an Apthecary & 1 grenade launcher. A lot of the time I'll take the RW Champion and if I can find the points I'll throw in the RW Company Banner too. I also always have an assault cannon wielding Dark Shroud behind them. I find it's a real nasty unit that delivers the goods in terms of shooting, assault, staying power and generally making your opponent worried (which often takes the pressure off a lot of other things in my RW army). I hear what you're saying with the Chaplain, Zealot is pretty cool on a unit of RWBKs, especially since they can hit and run, but Interromancy in my opinion is just better because it gives your more options than simply to-hit rerolls on the first round of combat. Plus you get the added bonus of better deny the witches on our special snow flake death squad. In bigger games with more points I do add the Chaplain with a mace of redemption however. Using a 3 wound model with Eternal Warrior, a 3+ save/4+ invul./2+ re-rolling jink & +5 FnP is a great way to 'tank' hits for the squad, which a lot of the time means you won't even be jinking, making those plasma talons even more deadly. If you use Sammael as your warlord also, his warlord trait also gives the unit +3" to its charge range, which when coupled with the RW Company Banner is very tasty indeed. Having a Dark Shroud escort this unit just makes it better again through better jink/cover saves & denying you opponent some overwatch verses your RWBKs. Another small and very situational added bonus is it gives the RWBKs fear too (if it's still close enough) which sometimes synergies well with the Interromancy Librarian. I've never used Sammael on his speeder though but those are my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypher 102 Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 I only have enough Black Knight right now for one squad. I plan on rectifying that soon. However I tend to run with Sammael on jetbike and a level 2 Librarian. I put Sammael in a normal Ravenwing Bike Squad so they can benefit from his Skilled Rider rule and the Librarian in the Ravenwing Command Squad so the Librarian gets the benefit of Skilled Rider. The Ravenwing Command Squad is the best unit available for an all Ravenwing army so is pretty much an auto include. Following closely behind is a secondary squad of Black Knights. I always use the Apothecary and the Ravenwing Standard. I can't stand to fail Hit & Run tests and watch my best unit get tied down in subsequent rounds of combat when they can be doing so much more. I would also strongly suggest investing in a Dark Shroud or two. They don't help you destroy the enemy, but are essential in a Ravenwing army to help the rest of your units survive to do so. They are also incredibly cheap pointswise for what they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigshead Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 Here's another vote for Sammy on his bike with a lvl 2 libby in a Ravenwing Command Squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 The choice of which Sammie to take is really dependent upon the rest of your list. And the most interesting thing you said was that you are planning to bring at least 5 speeders with a shooty RW. If you check the typical lists used by the people above that said the Jetbike without hesitation, you will discover that they tend not to take speeders except for the obligitory Dark Shroud and perhaps a RWSS to defend it. Usually thier list choices are based on the question, do I want to defiend this one Dark Shroud or do I want to take a second one? The rest of their list will generally consist of bikes, with a side bikes, and some bikes for dessert. Don't be fooled by this.... Using a 3 wound model with Eternal Warrior, a 3+ save/4+ invul./2+ re-rolling jink & +5 FnP is a great way to 'tank' hits for the squad, which a lot of the time means you won't even be jinking, making those plasma talons even more deadly. If you use Sammael as your warlord also, his warlord trait also gives the unit +3" to its charge range, which when coupled with the RW Company Banner is very tasty indeed. You are going to hear that argument a lot. And while the unit does have survivability, consider what you are spending to get that survivability. One 200 pt HQ, a second 150 pt HQ, a 300 pt Elite unit, and a 100 pt escort. Why yes, a 750 point unit should be survivable. But it is also a huge point sink in what is typically a MSU list. Your next largest unit will only be 200 pts. And the weak link in that unit is the DS which can be targeted by anyone, and has to rely on its jink... and there are quite a few ways to bypass the Jink save. Now as survivable as that unit looks, all of the bikes can be wounded by S2 weapons, and the Shroud can be glanced by S4. And only 3 of the 11 wounds in that squad has an Inv save. If you look at the math, a 10 man IG vet squad with 3 melta guns that uses the first rank second rank order will put put 2.3 wounds on Sammie after all of his saves in a single round of shooting. Remember you were tanking with Sammie so the rest of the squad wouldn't have to Jink. If you use Look Out Sir, you WILL kill 25%+ of this squad, if you don't you COULD lose Sammie to one of the least threatening units in the game. The RWCS's survivability doesn't change that much with or without Sammie attached. But taking everything above (S, L, RWCS and DS) but using the Speeder moves you back to a MSU style force and you have just increased Sammie's survivability exponentially. The speeder can't be touched by anything less than S8 at range. And even an incompetent player can keep his butt to the wall to protect the AV10 rear. I mean nobody comlains about the rear armor of a vindicator, and that doesn't even have AV14 in the front and side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/style_images/1/spacer.gif - 1 unit of 3 land speeder typhoons - 2 units of 1 speeder with dual meltas I am going to advise against taking more than 1 speeder in a squadron, unless you are taking a RWSS with a DS or Vengeance (LSV). The RWSS gives really great rules like Interceptor and Ravenshield for free, which makes it a no-brainer if you are already taking those models. But if you are not taking a DS or LSV the bonus for taking 3 speeders in a landspeeder squadron don't make up for the drawbacks that the squadron rules have for speeders. The Squadron rules are really good for Tanks and Dreads. For Tanks it allows them to draw LOS through each other, which is great as otherwise they would block LOS and the tanks are slow enough that they might not be able to get around the large foot print of the other tank. For Dreads it allows the others to join in CC when one gets charged... there are very few units that can deal with 3 Dreads at once in CC. Speeders on the other hand have a very small foot print, are very fast and ignore terrain, so there is little chance that they will be without LOS to their target because of one of the other speeders near by. In a squadron they have to maintain coherency, which could mean that you would have to take DT when you wouldn't otherwise be required. Just because they are not in a squadron, doesn't mean you can't run them together, but it does mean that your opponent will have to use multiple units to shoot at them. Now there is a bonus that the landspeeder squadron gets if there are 3+ speeders in the unit. To use that rule means that you are giving up your shooting this turn to get extra movement to enable you to be in a better position next turn. But I personally don't feel that movement bonus is necessary. I don't use the HF option on the speeder, as I feel that everyother weapon will get to shoot 2 times for every 1 time that I get to shoot the flamer. So that means that the weapon ranges are 24-48 inches... and the speeder itself can move 12 inch and fire or can move 36 inches and not fire this turn. That means that the speeder has a threat range of 3-5 feet this turn or 6-8 feet next turn. The upwash rule makes it so our speeders have a threat range of 6.5-8.5 feet next turn. The board is 6x4, and the longest line is 7.2 feet, which doesn't account for the size of the speeder (4-5 inches depending upon weapons) or the size of the target (at least 1 inch for an infantry model) which will reduce that distance further. I am of the opinion that a shooty unit works best when it is shooting. Because of that, I can't think of a single situation where there are no other units within 3-5 feet of my speeder that are not worth shooting at this turn and there isn't another unit closer than 6 feet to that other unit that I really want to shoot by next turn. In my experence, if there is not an enemy unit within 3 feet of one of my speeders, then ether my opponent hasn't deployed his army yet or I have tabled him. The upwash rule could have been useful had they made it a movement bonus, like +1-2 inches. But as it is only a bonus to turboboost the only time I can think that you will make use of it is with the RWSF Speed of the Raven. With your deployment zone, scout, 1st turn move and turboboost... that would mean your bikes moved 48 inches from the table edge and your speeders moved 37-42 inches. I just don't see what good that 1-6 inch extra move does for you even then... except to get the DS just a little closer to the bikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevethepirate Posted October 4, 2015 Author Share Posted October 4, 2015 All of these suggestions make perfect sense. Thanks for all the help guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 I guess you could crunch the numbers either way ValourousHeart. You could always get super unlucky and get the Speeder 1 shot by single lascannon. I hear your points and they're all valid. After all you're the one who convinced me in another thread to try the speeder version of Sammael, which I'd never previously used. Unfortunately I've been turned off the idea as he died horribly to haywire blasters in both games without really contributing anything to the game at all. However on his jetbike I can't even count how many times he's tanked various nasties for his unit including all manner of dark light weapons & 50 million splinter cannon shots coming in, and then pulling his unit in close combat with that extra charge range. Yes they jinked, but lets be honest, your double HQ + RWCS deathstar is going to draw a heap of fire which generally means all your other bikes and speeders aren't. My advise to you Steve is not to pick a unit or character and set said unit/character in stone. Try everything, take everything, learn what you like and how you like to play. Then you'll develop your own favourites and know how to use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 @ PhilB, You make a great point, and it is something I failed to consider. The choice of which style RW list to run and by extent which Sammie to use does depend a lot on your meta. At my old store, which I based my arguments on to you on before had a heavy SM or CSM following with almost everyone having a second army that was IG, Orks, Eldar or Nids. There was only 1 sister player (me), 1 DE player, and 2-3 Tau players. The worst I had to worry about was genestealers or Orks charging the speeder, and it was just a question if I could shoot enough first. My new store has a brand new meta. I have faced more Tau and DE in the last few months than I have since either army came out originally. So both versions have their strengths and weaknesses. Just have to figure which has fewer weaknesses in your meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevethepirate Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 The point about the local meta is 100% accurate. Honestly, I've been out of the regular scene for so long that I'm not sure what the local meta is doing (postgrad research doesn't leave a lot of time for hobbies), so in a sense I'm going in blind. In saying that though, I've done a lot of soul-searching and what I've ended up with is Sammael on jetbike and a Chaplain on bike riding with a Ravenwing Command Squad. Sammael runs with a regular RWing bike squad. Having 2 units with a 3+ rerollable cover save is to sweet (I will be getting a Darkshroud at some point though, fo sho). Also, I have a massive soft spot for Chaplains and couldn't resist modelling one up. I may have to do a project log for this army actually... Cheers for the help guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I run an Interrogator Chaplain since 7th came out and kit him with the Mace of Redemption and the Shroud + Auspex + Bike I was really surprised at how effective this guy is, when I 1st tried the combo out it was a a sub for Sammael to see how things worked and I bumped it to Interrogator to get the relics, you could give him a hammer instead but given the Mace is concussive & Blind I've not found the need, these days I field him as well as Backed up with the Darkshorud nearby causing Fear the guy is a 1 man killing machine for anything that doesn't have a 2+ save & people seem to underestimate the Mace with Strike Down & Blind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Angels Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 does the nartheicum replaces the corvus-hammer? If yes, doas the Apo. recieve +1 attack for 2 meele weapons? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypher 102 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Not any more. So yes the Apothecary gets +1 Attack with all of the other Black Knights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I am also very split on Sammy. He is a very solid tank, because of his jink. Sure, RWBK can tank as well, but one botched save means less output. Sammy can take two without dying, which is 72 wounds before saves, which is well over 120 shots at the unit when the Darkshroud is near. An Int-Chap has better output than Sammy and he fixes one major issue I have with the RW unit, namely the WS4, by giving them Zealot. If Sammy had S5 in melee or was costed at 175pts, I would take him almost every time. But since I am running a CAD and he only comes with his S4, I hesitate to put the 200pts into him, because ultimately I need to choose between survivability of the unit and output. While I generally prefer survivability, it means nothing if the unit can not hit jack in melee, especially since the RW survivability does not translate into close combat. Also, consider that an Iron Hands Chapter Master is only 40pts more expensive. You won't even need to jink with the 2+/3++/4+ FnP. Tough choices all around, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Iron hands Chapter Master is not even a choice in my book. If I wanted to play with SM I wouldn't be playing DA at all. I'm sure 99% of the people here share that feeling. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Dark Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Hi, as a returning DA player (6th) im looking at a ravenwing detachment... cant find where it says by taking a SM bike it confers ravenwing special rule to either a libby or a chaplain..... Is sammuel the only hq choice if we want a ravenwing strike force detachment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Due to a Games Workshop "cock up" it says you can take 4 HQ's in the Ravenwing Strike Force but as the Codex only lists 1 with the Raven wing rule and Sammael is unique currently you can only include 1 of 4 Competitions, Clubs & Gaming Groups take 1 of the following views 1. Well that's obviously wrong any Dark Angel HQ on a Bike is RavenWing 2. Tuff luck bud we'll let you take Extra HQ's as part of the force but no Ravenwing Rule for them Currently not come across anyone saying go by the book or die hahaha wait for an FAQ but I'm sure there are some out there :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Dark Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Cheers snake, common sense rule then. Hope peeps i game with are understanding. Id h8 to trash my converted libby or chappy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Angels Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Hey guys A friend of mine lately told me, that bike units never get +1 attack for two meele weapons (Corvus + boltpistol) because they have to drive with one hand. Is he right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 He is very wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Angels Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 was it like that in 6th edition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 In 4th during a short time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Angels Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Hello folks The question is; what kind of hq-choices fits the best to the RWCS (apart from the special characters)? I have a librarian on the bike which is already a good supplement. Is there something else to look at? Why does the regular company master not have the bike-option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Dark Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Keeping the rw questions going.... specifically the black knights I heard that black knights can somehow stop overwatch when charging.... It might have been in conjuction with a shroud...cant remember complete details and its doing my head in. Would the kind brothers of the DA enlighten me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Move the Dark Shroud within 6" of the Ravenwing unit You can do this in a number of ways Daisy chain the bike squad back while moving the Dark Shroud Forward also forgo shooting with the Dark Shroud and Turbo into position. Before you do anything measure then measure again, explain to your opponent what it does, don't forget it causes Fear I have a regular Tau opponent who thinks its the most OP thing in the universe and goes ape at trying to bring it down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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