Terra in M30

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Night Lords would also be drawn from (mostly) European stock.

With a good portion of that being the prison underneath Albion.

 

Although, on the whole note of cultural cross-pollenation, the Terran Raven Guard primarily recruited from tech-tribes located in the Middle East didn't they? And yet they have a Polynesian influence? That's one heck of a cultural influence.

Ah, I'd have to look at it again. I thought the Night Lords came from the Marianas trench and the Raven Guard came from Central Asia.

It says the Night Lords come from an underground penal colony. The short story Child of Night places that penal colony directly underneath Albion. You might be thinking of one of their notable battles where they dumped an entire hive city into a deep chasm that was probably the Marianas Trench.

 

As for the Raven Guard, still. Polynesian is the various Pacific Islands IIRC, so even Central Asia is a massive geographic shift for the culture.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

realistically by m30 interbreeding between ethnic groups will probably have rendered us down to a more or less standard physicality. And culturaly who knows there isn't a single human civilization that has lasted ten thousand years continuously so who is to say our current cultures would last into m30

I think uniformity seems anything but true in the future; variation rather than singularity is suggested by 'ethnic' projections of a melting pot like America currently (see here and here). Obviously this is the near-future, but I think anything which projects onto 40k a single ethnic dimension which is 'white' or caucasoid is not what I think the franchise should be reaching for....

 

More so, my point isn't about race per se; it's rather that 40K reflects Eurocentric granularity (that europe has diverse, identifiable cultures that form archetypes for dozens of different future identities), whereas the rest of the world of collapsed into massive blank slates that provide single, bland, unified cultural-racial archetypes which are not true. Africa, Asia, Oceania and South+Central America are all as or are far more granulated in the present and the past than Europe (or Western Europe+North America). That's my main point, although race is tied very much to this.

On that map yes, but in the setting not some much. Intellectually, you've got to separate classical European history away from colonial European identity. The time from the discovery of the Americas until the modern era have completely reshaped the perception of European granularity. Whereas FW's focus on the classical European history of the Greek and Roman eras reflects a Eurocentric bias in history/geography, but not a European ethnic bias, since neither the Romans nor the Greeks exist in the ethnic form currently that they during those eras. It would be like a white Northern American claiming an ethnic lineage through a detached Native American or African ancestor many generations removed. I've had both, yet I cannot identify as either because the majority of my ethnic 'melting pot' is Central European and Anglo-Saxon. European cultures are not elaborated in both BL and FW. The descriptions of France as a specific example in Prospero Burns did not describe 30k Franc culture in any detail, yet Hy Brasil was described in detail. The descriptions of the historically marginalized regions are indeed blank slates, but to my recollection, very little if anything is described about them reflecting implicit bias. The Xeric tribes are left ethnically ambiguous which doesn't allow us to point to any one culture and say 'that one'. Indeed doing so would reveal the poster's own implicit bias by associating a real culture with a slaving culture.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

Night Lords would also be drawn from (mostly) European stock.

With a good portion of that being the prison underneath Albion.

 

Although, on the whole note of cultural cross-pollenation, the Terran Raven Guard primarily recruited from tech-tribes located in the Middle East didn't they? And yet they have a Polynesian influence? That's one heck of a cultural influence.

Ah, I'd have to look at it again. I thought the Night Lords came from the Marianas trench and the Raven Guard came from Central Asia.

It says the Night Lords come from an underground penal colony. The short story Child of Night places that penal colony directly underneath Albion. You might be thinking of one of their notable battles where they dumped an entire hive city into a deep chasm that was probably the Marianas Trench.

 

As for the Raven Guard, still. Polynesian is the various Pacific Islands IIRC, so even Central Asia is a massive geographic shift for the culture.

That's what it was. Thanks for the correction :)

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

realistically by m30 interbreeding between ethnic groups will probably have rendered us down to a more or less standard physicality. And culturaly who knows there isn't a single human civilization that has lasted ten thousand years continuously so who is to say our current cultures would last into m30

I think uniformity seems anything but true in the future; variation rather than singularity is suggested by 'ethnic' projections of a melting pot like America currently (see here and here). Obviously this is the near-future, but I think anything which projects onto 40k a single ethnic dimension which is 'white' or caucasoid is not what I think the franchise should be reaching for....

 

More so, my point isn't about race per se; it's rather that 40K reflects Eurocentric granularity (that europe has diverse, identifiable cultures that form archetypes for dozens of different future identities), whereas the rest of the world of collapsed into massive blank slates that provide single, bland, unified cultural-racial archetypes which are not true. Africa, Asia, Oceania and South+Central America are all as or are far more granulated in the present and the past than Europe (or Western Europe+North America). That's my main point, although race is tied very much to this.

On that map yes, but in the setting not some much. Intellectually, you've got to separate classical European history away from colonial European identity. The time from the discovery of the Americas until the modern era have completely reshaped the perception of European granularity. Whereas FW's focus on the classical European history of the Greek and Roman eras reflects a Eurocentric bias in history/geography, but not a European ethnic bias, since neither the Romans nor the Greeks exist in the ethnic form currently that they during those eras. It would be like a white Northern American claiming an ethnic lineage through a detached Native American or African ancestor many generations removed. I've had both, yet I cannot identify as either because the majority of my ethnic 'melting pot' is Central European and Anglo-Saxon. European cultures are not elaborated in both BL and FW. The descriptions of France as a specific example in Prospero Burns did not describe 30k Franc culture in any detail, yet Hy Brasil was described in detail. The descriptions of the historically marginalized regions are indeed blank slates, but to my recollection, very little if anything is described about them reflecting implicit bias. The Xeric tribes are left ethnically ambiguous which doesn't allow us to point to any one culture and say 'that one'. Indeed doing so would reveal the poster's own implicit bias by associating a real culture with a slaving culture.

 

 

Yes, you are right, there are differences between European antiquity and ... later Europe, wherever you put the divide, although as someone who studies the in-between, there is still a caucasoid continuity that is hard to diminish, as well as how Rome and Greece have been used to present later European cultural supermacy through the middle ages, early modernity and to the end of the colonial period.

 

Nevertheless I do feel that despite attempts to ameliorate this, 40K remains at heart anglo-saxon or west 'western'. Even the fact that 'Gothic' remains the architectural and decorative lingua franca of the setting remains unsettling for me, as Gothic was both a European thing and then a colonial thing, through especially Anglican culture (see Bremner's recent Imperial Gothic for an analysis of the global and colonial mechanisms that saw Neo-Gothic propelled across the globe, as well as its excellent concluding historiographic essay on what 'British' or any central term means for an imperial state). The same would be true of classical languages, propelled from the 16th century as a imperial tool across the globe, until the 20th century. 

 

But I understand what you say, and I agree to a great extent. More so, I have been so glad that writers have made attempts to multi-race and multi-culturalise 40K; long may this continue!

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

realistically by m30 interbreeding between ethnic groups will probably have rendered us down to a more or less standard physicality. And culturaly who knows there isn't a single human civilization that has lasted ten thousand years continuously so who is to say our current cultures would last into m30

I think uniformity seems anything but true in the future; variation rather than singularity is suggested by 'ethnic' projections of a melting pot like America currently (see here and here). Obviously this is the near-future, but I think anything which projects onto 40k a single ethnic dimension which is 'white' or caucasoid is not what I think the franchise should be reaching for....

 

More so, my point isn't about race per se; it's rather that 40K reflects Eurocentric granularity (that europe has diverse, identifiable cultures that form archetypes for dozens of different future identities), whereas the rest of the world of collapsed into massive blank slates that provide single, bland, unified cultural-racial archetypes which are not true. Africa, Asia, Oceania and South+Central America are all as or are far more granulated in the present and the past than Europe (or Western Europe+North America). That's my main point, although race is tied very much to this.

On that map yes, but in the setting not some much. Intellectually, you've got to separate classical European history away from colonial European identity. The time from the discovery of the Americas until the modern era have completely reshaped the perception of European granularity. Whereas FW's focus on the classical European history of the Greek and Roman eras reflects a Eurocentric bias in history/geography, but not a European ethnic bias, since neither the Romans nor the Greeks exist in the ethnic form currently that they during those eras. It would be like a white Northern American claiming an ethnic lineage through a detached Native American or African ancestor many generations removed. I've had both, yet I cannot identify as either because the majority of my ethnic 'melting pot' is Central European and Anglo-Saxon. European cultures are not elaborated in both BL and FW. The descriptions of France as a specific example in Prospero Burns did not describe 30k Franc culture in any detail, yet Hy Brasil was described in detail. The descriptions of the historically marginalized regions are indeed blank slates, but to my recollection, very little if anything is described about them reflecting implicit bias. The Xeric tribes are left ethnically ambiguous which doesn't allow us to point to any one culture and say 'that one'. Indeed doing so would reveal the poster's own implicit bias by associating a real culture with a slaving culture.

Yes, you are right, there are differences between European antiquity and ... later Europe, wherever you put the divide, although as someone who studies the in-between, there is still a caucasoid continuity that is hard to diminish, as well as how Rome and Greece have been used to present later European cultural supermacy through the middle ages, early modernity and to the end of the colonial period.

 

Nevertheless I do feel that despite attempts to ameliorate this, 40K remains at heart anglo-saxon or west 'western'. Even the fact that 'Gothic' remains the architectural and decorative lingua franca of the setting remains unsettling for me, as Gothic was both a European thing and then a colonial thing, through especially Anglican culture (see Bremner's recent Imperial Gothic for an analysis of the global and colonial mechanisms that saw Neo-Gothic propelled across the globe, as well as its excellent concluding historiographic essay on what 'British' or any central term means for an imperial state). The same would be true of classical languages, propelled from the 16th century as a imperial tool across the globe, until the 20th century.

 

But I understand what you say, and I agree to a great extent. More so, I have been so glad that writers have made attempts to multi-race and multi-culturalise 40K; long may this continue!

As a product of western minds it will not be able to separate itself from western implicit bias. Your example of gothic is spot on, because what it means to a westerner is starkly contrasted to what it means to a non-westerner. I don't think the setting will be able to become a true-multicultural universe because the foundations of the protagonists are deeply rooted in the classical western imagery and government types. Where you will find the most opportunity to expand this will be in the depictions of the legion worlds like Chogoris and Tizca. Although between Graham McNeill's engrish from A Thousand Sons and the fact he describes the Thousand Sons in the classical orientalist mystical desert people fashion doesn't give me a lot of hope. ADB is more respectful of the cultures through his descriptions of Colchis and the Celestial Lions, but they still conform to orientalist stereotyping.

 

The main problem comes from the inability of authors to use other cultures in the way we use older European cultures. To describe the space wolves as barbaric Vikings doesn't evoke the same reaction in a western reader as describing an African themed chapter like the Zulu would, because mass media already re-presents Africans in such a way to marginalize them as less civilized.

 

What is terribly sad is that other non-western cultures are such fertile ground as a basis for characters and settings in the universe, but it's nearly impossible to do it without the implicit bias showing through.

[TennisBall]

Please don't moan that a mostly European staff write about things using European cultural references. As stated, the European side of things is poorly covered itself, more of an extremely thin veneer than a fully fleshed culture.

You also have the issue that the marines are fully enclosed in armour. Only one part of the world has ever produced warriors fully enclosed in plate armour - that's Europe.

The legions themselves are loosely based on the Roman legions.

 

Non-European things?

Banner poles seem an obvious one - Japanese?, mohawks came from American Indians didn't they? An entire legion is specifically based on the Mongol horde.

 

A lot of the 40k culture is based on street gangs rather than ethnic culture.

 

There is a strong greco-roman feel and also a Catholic church feel to the setting, but specific cultures from Europe are pretty non-existent, the pseudo-viking culture of the Space Wolves aside.

[Marshal Rohr]

Please don't moan that a mostly European staff write about things using European cultural references. As stated, the European side of things is poorly covered itself, more of an extremely thin veneer than a fully fleshed culture.

You also have the issue that the marines are fully enclosed in armour. Only one part of the world has ever produced warriors fully enclosed in plate armour - that's Europe.

The legions themselves are loosely based on the Roman legions.

 

Non-European things?

Banner poles seem an obvious one - Japanese?, mohawks came from American Indians didn't they? An entire legion is specifically based on the Mongol horde.

 

A lot of the 40k culture is based on street gangs rather than ethnic culture.

 

There is a strong greco-roman feel and also a Catholic church feel to the setting, but specific cultures from Europe are pretty non-existent, the pseudo-viking culture of the Space Wolves aside.

You haven't the faintest idea what we are talking about do you?

[Arkangilos]

It sounded like you were talking about how it was sad that it was primarily a western cultures setting, with other cultures being under represented. It was also said that the gothic style was saddening because once again it was a western theme.

 

I'm with Tennis on this one.

[Marshal Rohr]

It sounded like you were talking about how it was sad that it was primarily a western cultures setting, with other cultures being under represented. It was also said that the gothic style was saddening because once again it was a western theme.

 

I'm with Tennis on this one.

We are talking about how sad it is that Western bias influences depictions of cultures in 30K. Not the presence of western historical influences. For instance, the White Scar in ATS was given a caricature accent of the way some Asian people speak english in popular media. This is unnecessary because no one in universe speaks English, and it only served the purpose of putting a neon sign over the White Scars that says Asian. I'm the first to defend the setting as primarily western and resist the addition of anime and other non-western stylings. I hate that Sigismund, the archetypical western swordsman, is posed in an eastern fight stance.

 

What we are discussing is how the western cultural influences in the setting are a 'given' and the other cultural influences are painted as exotic and homogenous, when that isn't the case in the real world.

[TennisBall]

What we are discussing is how the western cultural influences in the setting are a 'given' and the other cultural influences are painted as exotic and homogenous, when that isn't the case in the real world.

You mean, what you want to discuss rather than what "we" are discussing. It's a fairly broad topic here.

As for the point about western vs exotic, well the creators and most of the audience are western so of course that is the dominant viewpoint. In universe setting it represents the defacto administrative culture.

Just like Tolkien's world where even the major characters had "real" names that were totally different to names we see in the books.

 

In the real world English is, and French before it, the language of international business. It's a defacto language on many forums that have international members.

The vast majority of people in the world have adopted western ways of living, dressing, voting. The point being that the world has something of an international culture based largely on a specific culture already. Whether that western influence remains into the future is irrelevant, having a core culture to connect with is what I'm discussing.

In 40K that is represented by western culture due to the culture of the original creators and continuing developers and audience.

 

Perhaps you could give an example of what you'd like to see instead of just saying we need more of spice B, less of spice A.

[Tyrannicide]

How're you guys missing what Rohr and Petitioner's City are putting down? I'm no scholar, but I think I get the gist. They have never once implied that the 30k-verse (or by extension 40k) needs less western culture. What it needs is less stereotypical renditions of the other eastern-inspired cultures being written about through an implicit bias that the authors have. Seeing more cultures is never a bad thing in this rich setting. The White Scar yelling for his "batter brothers" is a perfect example of what should never again come out of this setting. We're beyond that.

[Marshal Rohr]

You are missing the mark by a huge margin, and I'm going to have to assume it's because you front know what we are talking about. If that is the case, Orientalism is the critique of the way non-western cultures are presented in literature and media, along with the cultural bias of westerners against other cultures. As an example, condemning the caste system in India by western governments or criticizing Chinese politics as oriental despotism and intrinsic to their culture without recognizing the Chinese are not homogenous with the larger Asian population and they invented the modern state.

 

 

 

 

What we are discussing is how the western cultural influences in the setting are a 'given' and the other cultural influences are painted as exotic and homogenous, when that isn't the case in the real world.

You mean, what you want to discuss rather than what "we" are discussing. It's a fairly broad topic here.

As for the point about western vs exotic, well the creators and most of the audience are western so of course that is the dominant viewpoint. In universe setting it represents the defacto administrative culture.

Your first mistake is assuming that Imperial administration is based on western political systems. It is not. No author has described it. Imperial architecture is markedly western, but the workings of the bureaucracy and administration are not described.

 

 

Just like Tolkien's world where even the major characters had "real" names that were totally different to names we see in the books.

 

Tolkien was an ethnocentrist. An excellent author and a brilliant man, but undoubted biased towards western culture. All his 'bad guys' dwell in the east and are caricatures of eastern peoples.

 

[qoute]In the real world English is, and French before it, the language of international business. It's a defacto language on many forums that have international members.

 

But the only reason McNeill included engrish was to show the 'otherness' of the white scars character. A mystical shaman. Also an orientalist trope.

 

 

The vast majority of people in the world have adopted western ways of living, dressing, voting. The point being that the world has something of an international culture based largely on a specific culture already.

 

Most of the world resents these adaptations as imperialistic and unauthentic. There is a whole feild of study devoted to the removal of western cultural influences and institutions. Spearheaded primarily by post-colonial scholars in India and the Far East and Russian autocrats in the north.

 

 

 

Whether that western influence remains into the future is irrelevant, having a core culture to connect with is what I'm discussing.

 

I think what you keep misunderstanding isn't that space wolves are Vikings and white scars are Mongolians. It's that the depictions of viking space wolves doesn't have the same connotations as the depictions of Mongol white scars. No space wolf is presented speaking in broken English, nor are they described in ways that showcase how detached from the 'correct' culture in the way the white scars are. The white scars are presented as being unknowable, changeable, and foreign. The space wolves are barbaric but resolute in their character.

 

 

40K that is represented by western culture due to the culture of the original creators and continuing developers and audience.

 

Exactly. The creators aren't racists trying to disparage other cultures. The are westerners and implicitly biased towards their own culture and it shows through. Orientalism is a critique, not a social justice movement.

 

 

Perhaps you could give an example of what you'd like to see instead of just saying we need more of spice B, less of spice A.

 

Sure, it would be beneficial if the authors took the time to describe Tizcan and Chogoran culture without caricaturing the Egyptian and Mongol cultures. Systems of governance and cultural practices. Etiquette and protocol. An acknowledgement that Egyptians the TS represent were not the Space Arabs as presented by McNeill. It is one thing to draw from Viking culture and apply it to the space wolves because no one in the western world looks at Scandanavia and speaks of them or writes of them as if they had some connection to the Vikings besides history. Media and entertainment have tropified east cultures into caricature and parody and that is what the authors draw from for inspiration for white scars and thousand sons.

[Arkangilos]

Ok wait, so I get this straight, what *you* are saying is that you want the cultural influences to be more accurate, not displayed as a sort of parody? So rather than show them with Engrish we show them with more accurate mongol depictions?

[Kriegriss]

i would just say if you are opposed to the setting and its influences so strongly and feel that they don't represent what you want in a backdrop for you're hobby feel free to play a game that is more attuned to what you look for in the fluff.

 

30K/40K is what it is and that is why many of us like it.  I'm not trying to offend anybody i'm just saying if you feel like you want more feminine influence in you're batman then read bat girl don't tell batman to wear tighter pants .  Peoples opinions for more cultural depth in there hobby universe is all fine and good but some members of this forum would do well to insure that they are not inferring that just because many of us enjoy the current setting that we are somehow racial biggets and culturaly, politically and historically ignorant. Every one here is entitled to there opinion but remember this is science "FICTION" so there is no right or wrong just supposition and opinion 

[Marshal Rohr]

Ok wait, so I get this straight, what *you* are saying is that you want the cultural influences to be more accurate, not displayed as a sort of parody? So rather than show them with Engrish we show them with more accurate mongol depictions?

I'd rather them not write their dialogue in broken English. If Graham McNeill had written a black character's dialogue like Mark Twain people would've been up in arms. That's one of many ways to fight bias.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

i would just say if you are opposed to the setting and its influences so strongly and feel that they don't represent what you want in a backdrop for you're hobby feel free to play a game that is more attuned to what you look for in the fluff.

 

Ok buddy, I'll try to explain this in language you can understand since clearly this subject is slipping past you. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the setting. I am not opposed to the setting. You, however, can keep your advice to yourself. No one. No. One. Was trying to say the designers are wrong or need to do something else. It's about the presentation. I'm perfectly happy trying to make my armies and characters more in depth and accurate.

 

[qoute]30K/40K is what it is and that is why many of us like it. I'm not trying to offend anybody i'm just saying if you feel like you want more feminine influence in you're batman then read bat girl don't tell batman to wear tighter pants .

 

Oh, there it is. You definitely didn't understand anything we were talking about. This isn't about making 30K a multicultural paradise or tolerance and love. It's about using more accurate historical and cultural information to create in depth background for the setting.

 

 

Peoples opinions for more cultural depth in there hobby universe is all fine and good but some members of this forum would do well to insure that they are not inferring that just because many of us enjoy the current setting that we are somehow racial biggets and culturaly, politically and historically ignorant.

 

No one said that.

 

 

Every one here is entitled to there opinion but remember this is science "FICTION" so there is no right or wrong just supposition and opinion

 

Again, you show you have no :cuss idea what we are talking about. This is a critique. Not a social justice movement. In the same way you can say 'why are there two expeditionary fleets with the same number?' or 'why is the hand removed different for the iron hands depending on the source?' You can also say, 'why is this white scar talking like the guy who owns city wok on South Park?'

[depthcharge12]

"Oh herro Mongorians. They tore down my Chitty Wall!!!" :P

 

It's interesting how the population would look in 28k years considering Euopean and Americans from European stock are declining in birth rate. You'd expect more of the people in the future who breed like rabbits (looking at you China and India) due to natural selection.

 

Unless the future McStarDonalds conglomerate drops nukes on those places to make room for parking lots and fast food/coffee joints.

[Arkangilos]

 

Ok wait, so I get this straight, what *you* are saying is that you want the cultural influences to be more accurate, not displayed as a sort of parody? So rather than show them with Engrish we show them with more accurate mongol depictions?

I'd rather them not write their dialogue in broken English. If Graham McNeill had written a black character's dialogue like Mark Twain people would've been up in arms. That's one of many ways to fight bias.

 

Yeah, that's what I meant. 

 

Agreed. 

[1000 Sons]

When you bemoan the lack of true uniqueness and over abundance of stereotypes you have to go back to the beginning.  This whole mythos started as a very campy sci-fi game.  They pretty much just stuck 'space' in front of anything, space egyptians, space vikings, space elves, space orks, space vampires, space ninjas and just like the thread of legion cultures everything started simple.  Black Library and Forgeworld have tried to add in a lot of depth and complexity to these, but they can't / or are not allowed to change those simple themes and cultural generalizations.

[TennisBall]

 

Ok wait, so I get this straight, what *you* are saying is that you want the cultural influences to be more accurate, not displayed as a sort of parody? So rather than show them with Engrish we show them with more accurate mongol depictions?

I'd rather them not write their dialogue in broken English. If Graham McNeill had written a black character's dialogue like Mark Twain people would've been up in arms. That's one of many ways to fight bias.

 

So you have no problem with Orks being given cockney type accents and basically equating the lower classes of Britain to violent thugs? I know you didn't say that, but your Orientalism is essentially saying it's alright to use western stereotypes - like the Space Wolf drunkard who loves brawling, but not the Scars because that's somehow insulting to asians.

 

I suspect the engrish was used as part of a modern push to promote the Scars as an asian element in the 40K setting. Not to say, here be asians, but to redress criticism that 40K implies everyone is white. Perhaps it's hamfisted but that's my take on it. White Scars biker upgrade from years ago has two marines with bare heads - both look white. I don't think it was until Jagatai came out in mini that GW started pushing the idea that the scars were asian looking as well as themed.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

Ok wait, so I get this straight, what *you* are saying is that you want the cultural influences to be more accurate, not displayed as a sort of parody? So rather than show them with Engrish we show them with more accurate mongol depictions?

I'd rather them not write their dialogue in broken English. If Graham McNeill had written a black character's dialogue like Mark Twain people would've been up in arms. That's one of many ways to fight bias.

So you have no problem with Orks being given cockney type accents and basically equating the lower classes of Britain to violent thugs? I know you didn't say that, but your Orientalism is essentially saying it's alright to use western stereotypes - like the Space Wolf drunkard who loves brawling, but not the Scars because that's somehow insulting to asians.

 

I suspect the engrish was used as part of a modern push to promote the Scars as an asian element in the 40K setting. Not to say, here be asians, but to redress criticism that 40K implies everyone is white. Perhaps it's hamfisted but that's my take on it. White Scars biker upgrade from years ago has two marines with bare heads - both look white. I don't think it was until Jagatai came out in mini that GW started pushing the idea that the scars were asian looking as well as themed.

I don't think that is necessarily what he is saying. Head hunting, model style, an demeanor can give them the same character without breaking the accent.

 

On the defense side, don't their people speak a different language than gothic?

I know my foreign professor speaks in very noticable Engrish. It's a language barrier.

[TennisBall]

they can't / or are not allowed to change those simple themes and cultural generalizations.

It's a standard sci fi trope. You go to another planet and the entire planet is the same culture, same climate. You have death worlds, ice planets, entire planets are locked at the same level of technological advancement or degradation.

The tribes of Fenris would have several different languages and likely very distinct cultures. They're spread out over most of the planet so you'd expect regional variation as primitives like them have no way to standardise their culture. Yet apparently every tribe is exactly the same, maintains the same language, customs, over thousands of years and across an entire planet despite communication being confined to themselves and their nearest neighbours.

[Flint13]

++ Alright folks, we've gotten way off topic and it's getting too heated. Take a little break and simmer down. ++

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Ok wait, so I get this straight, what *you* are saying is that you want the cultural influences to be more accurate, not displayed as a sort of parody? So rather than show them with Engrish we show them with more accurate mongol depictions?

I'd rather them not write their dialogue in broken English. If Graham McNeill had written a black character's dialogue like Mark Twain people would've been up in arms. That's one of many ways to fight bias.

So you have no problem with Orks being given cockney type accents and basically equating the lower classes of Britain to violent thugs? I know you didn't say that, but your Orientalism is essentially saying it's alright to use western stereotypes - like the Space Wolf drunkard who loves brawling, but not the Scars because that's somehow insulting to asians.I suspect the engrish was used as part of a modern push to promote the Scars as an asian element in the 40K setting. Not to say, here be asians, but to redress criticism that 40K implies everyone is white. Perhaps it's hamfisted but that's my take on it. White Scars biker upgrade from years ago has two marines with bare heads - both look white. I don't think it was until Jagatai came out in mini that GW started pushing the idea that the scars were asian looking as well as themed.

The critique of literature that caricatures or parodies the poor escapes me of at the moment, but yes that is one of my critiques of Orks. Since this is a PA forum I don't think to bring it up.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

they can't / or are not allowed to change those simple themes and cultural generalizations.

It's a standard sci fi trope. You go to another planet and the entire planet is the same culture, same climate. You have death worlds, ice planets, entire planets are locked at the same level of technological advancement or degradation.The tribes of Fenris would have several different languages and likely very distinct cultures. They're spread out over most of the planet so you'd expect regional variation as primitives like them have no way to standardise their culture. Yet apparently every tribe is exactly the same, maintains the same language, customs, over thousands of years and across an entire planet despite communication being confined to themselves and their nearest neighbours.

More recent descriptions of Fenris have diversified the cultures on the planet.