ValourousHeart Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 A while back I built a couple of Dreadnoughts that were fluff wise supposed to be wounded RW marines. The models have the track system from Thunder Fire Cannons... they look like the HKs from Terminator or the cyborg from the movie The Executioners. And I sware that they were the influence for that admech unit, those tracked gun servitors. They have the regular torso of a Dreadnought but the HF that is normally on the PF is mounted fixed forward on the lower torso, no SB or HF was mounted on the PF, and there is a missle launcher mounted on one shoulder. I am trying to come up with some house rules for them, and looking for imput from the DA community. Now the Venerable Dread is 25 pts more for +1 WS, +1 BS, and the DW (Fearless & Hatred CSM) and Venerable special rules, which gives me some ideas on what costs to apply. My thoughts were I would start with the normal Dreadnought stat line and options. Change FOC to Fast Attack Delete the options to swap the PF for a Missile Launcher or TL-Autocannon. Add option to add additional weapon system - Missile Launcher (Frag & Krak only) - 25 pts SPECIAL RULES Grim Resolve Scout Hit & Run Rapid Manoeuvre Ravenwing - Unit does not have Jink, this just allows unit to be taken with the RWSF. My thought was 125 points base with Multi-melta and PF/SB The way I plan to run them is with Assault Cannon, PF/HF, and Missile Launcher... 170 pts. What do you guys think? Comments and suggestions welcome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbaeza94 Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 I love the idea! i might use it.... one thing to consider however, since he is tracked and you're not playing counts as, wysiwyg matters and he is not a walker type anymore, and im sure his movemnt through cover/ difficult terrain changes. also, i think reducing his ws to 3, since he is not very agile, but granting him hammer of wrath is worth looking into. 125 base sounds fair, and why not have a cyclone missle launcher as the optional top weapon? i know its the same as a normal missle launcher, but it has an official name for more official goodness ha.. these are some suggestions. can you post pictures of your dread? id like to see this awesomeness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4188390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Don't walkers always come with hammer of wrath? CML is better than the normal (man portable) missile launcher. The former is heavy 2 ther latter heavy 1. I think this should go in the homebrew rules section. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4188395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 How about a hurricane plasma talon? Then he'd be a black knight dreadnought! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4188411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbaeza94 Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 PhilB 3 Twinlinked rapid fire plasma? That's godly! What dares stand in the way of the Black Knight DreadRaven? ?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4188476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodiger Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 As it is Ravenwing why not make the Missile Launcher the Ravenwing Grenade Launcher instead? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4188639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 How about a hurricane plasma talon? Then he'd be a black knight dreadnought! I love this idea... I am going to have to build a couple. As it is Ravenwing why not make the Missile Launcher the Ravenwing Grenade Launcher instead? Yet another great idea... how would you price this? Would you still leave it at 25 points or drop it to 15? Should it be an option or included in the base model? As a side note... Would having a RWGL count as having Frag Grenades when charging into terrain? I love the idea! i might use it.... one thing to consider however, since he is tracked and you're not playing counts as, wysiwyg matters and he is not a walker type anymore, and im sure his movemnt through cover/ difficult terrain changes. That is a good point about WYSIWYG. But consider this, all walkers treat terrain like infantry, however if our toys could move the different walkers would deal with it in different ways. IG sentinels mount chainsaws and flamers on the front to clear a path. Eldar walkers nimbly dance around the trees. Ork and SM Dreads simply uproot the trees that are in the way. In game there are plenty of units that move with different rules than you might expect. Chaos has a superheavy that was released this year that is tracked, however I believe it is treated as a superheavy walker. AdMech has a box set of tracked gun servitors that move as infantry. Movement wise, I tried to keep the movement close to the kits that it was built from (a dreadnought and artillery piece), with a slight boost so it could conceivably keep up with the rest of the RW. Other ideas I went through to help it keep up were 1) move like jump infantry, 2) move like a bike, but not have turboboost, and 3) battle focus. Ultimately I decided that the RW Dread just needed to keep up with the RW when taveling, but it didn't need to fight at the same speed that the RW fights at. Also I didn't want to create a new unit type for this one model, but I did want it to be able to fight in CC. So that limits us to Infantry, MC, Chariot, or Walker. Believe me, I get that it sounds wierd that I am talking about having a walker that doesn't walk. But if you look at other codexes with mechanical constructs that don't walk but still fight in CC, they tend to have the rules for MC. And I don't really think that is the right way to go for this unit. After all it is just a Dreadnought on a bicycle. also, i think reducing his ws to 3, since he is not very agile, but granting him hammer of wrath is worth looking into. I see where you are coming from, but I don't really like this idea. For simplicity I could have easily just fielded this as Ven Dread, swapped out DW (gives Hatred CSM and allows to be taken in the DW formations) for RW (doesn't have Jink, so just allows to be taken in the RW formations) and called it a day. That would have given me WS & BS 5 for the same cost. The only unit in the DA codex with WS3 is a servitor. And I am also expecting this marine to have been a veteran of the RW, and the entire roster for the RW is WS4 except the Champ and HQs. Heck even our scouts are WS4. I think that a Veteran of the RW, even intered in a dreadnought, would fight at least as well as a scout and better than a servitor. can you post pictures of your dread? id like to see this awesomeness. This is an old picture...LINK I have since purchased a IG Wyvern / Hydra kit for the guns so I can field this as a Deredeo. Yeah, it is a pricey conversion, and will only get more pricey over time. You might be better off buy the the bits instead of the models. Kits include to build these 2 dreads are: 1 Dread, 1 Ironclad, 2 Thunderfire Cannons, Missile Launcher are from IG Sentinals, Plasma Canons are from a Leman Russ Executioner, and Autocannons from an IG Wyvern (not pictured). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4188879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
twopounder Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 I can't say I'm attracted to this idea. Dreadnoughts are slow and incapable of recon work. If it was a mighty ravenwing brother, they would put him in a normal dreadnought. However, under the old VDR system a walker could be fast and move 12". You might want take a look at the (fan updated) v2 VDR system here. As long as you don't go overboard, it should be fine for friendly games. You would also be able to make a dreadnought that fits the recon/hit and run schema of the ravenwing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4189112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 My thought for ravenwing dreads was that they would provide fire support at range, hence the hellfire configuration...there's really no such thing as a stupid-fast-like-a-bike dreadnought, and a melee dread would be more white scars than ravenwing anyway...I mean, I think of RW as fast and shooty...well, this at least is shooty, and it has weapons the bikes (except the MMAB) couldn't dream of... If I wanted fast...I might go for the cerastus pattern knights...the lancer is my favorite, it's fast like RW, but fighty like WS...the knight castigator would probably be the most ravenwing-like...but a knight that specializes in killing other knights is....well, I'd be happy to have one in any list. If there are no enemy titans, fine, it can attract fire while punching 150+ point vehicles, and if there are, it vastly outclasses them in melee, having more D attacks at higher initiative (on the charge). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4189262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodiger Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 With the Ravenwing Grenade Launcher, I hadn't thought too much about it really when I suggested it, it just seemed an obvious piece of equipment . I'm guessing it would be placed on top of the dreadnought like the Missile Launcher is on the Contemptor, so if it is there then maybe it could be standard with an option to be upgraded or just swap for a Typhoon Missile Launcher, standard Missile Launchers are not very Ravenwing. If it is not there, could it be swapped for the Storm Bolter on the Arm instead, then it could be an upgrade cost. Points wise 25 points is pretty standard for Missile Launchers. And I would say yes to whether they would count as frag grenades when charging into terrain. You need to do something which GW don't do, play test a few times to work out what is fair and balanced. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4189282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 I want to thank all of you for your comments and perspective, especially the points about a dread not being fast or well suited for recon. It tells me that I probably need to go back to the drawing board with this concept. These are a few questions I need to find answers to. 1) What happens to a member of the RW who is injured to the point that if they were in a different company would qualify them for a dreadnought? Would they just be promoted to DW and be a dread in the 1st company? Would they be reassigned to a reserve company teaching marines to ride motorcycles? Or would they stay with the RW? 2) Is the sarcophagus used in a dreadnought able to be hooked up to other vehicles? What else could they do? A land speeder tempest seems like a simple choice, as it is a heavier speeder that has a sealed cockpit with 2 iconic weapons that are used by both dreadnoughts and RW. But it doesn't allow for much of a conversion opportunity or for flexibility in weapon choices. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4190108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
twopounder Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 I want to thank all of you for your comments and perspective, especially the points about a dread not being fast or well suited for recon. It tells me that I probably need to go back to the drawing board with this concept. These are a few questions I need to find answers to. 1) What happens to a member of the RW who is injured to the point that if they were in a different company would qualify them for a dreadnought? Would they just be promoted to DW and be a dread in the 1st company? Would they be reassigned to a reserve company teaching marines to ride motorcycles? Or would they stay with the RW? 2) Is the sarcophagus used in a dreadnought able to be hooked up to other vehicles? What else could they do? A land speeder tempest seems like a simple choice, as it is a heavier speeder that has a sealed cockpit with 2 iconic weapons that are used by both dreadnoughts and RW. But it doesn't allow for much of a conversion opportunity or for flexibility in weapon choices. 1) They would be interred in a regular dreadnought. Venerable dreadnoughts are ancient and aware of the fallen. 2)In theory yes. It's the same kind of technology used in servitors, titans, penitent engines, etc. Basically interfacing machines with flesh. However, 40k does not allow the creation of new technologies or merging to create new technologies. Tech marines would never violate their oaths to the machine god, nor would they violate the body of a battle brother. So even though, technically yes they could, it would never happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4190317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Ravenwing doesn't have dreadnoughts, so I would assume any Dreadnought candidate will have two choices. If the RW guy knows enough (ie he is Inner Circle) he goes to a 1st Co. Dreadnought. If not he goes to his former company before being RW as Dreadnought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4190356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbaeza94 Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Dreadnought have been hooked up to other machines. The instance I know is in Fallen Angels, where the dreadnought sarcophagus is connected to the giant siege tank by a techmarine. This was a desperate time the dark angels and Lion El Johnson found themselves in however Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4190390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Fallen Angels takes place during the heresy. The weird techno-religion of the Mechanicum had not been established yet. They also still knew what they were doing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4190501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbaeza94 Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 The cult mechanicus, the religion, was in fact established during the age of strife, and was very well established during the Treaty of Olympus Mons Many saw the emperor as the incarnation of the Omnissiah. Developing technology was already anathema to them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4190922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 So let me rephrase my statement the restrictions of the cult mechanicus did not permeate all of the imperial society. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4190949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Just as a rules thing.Tracked close combat machines are definitely walkers (if they have Hull Points) as there is no other vehicle type that can fight in close combat.Just like the Lord of Skulls, a tracked walker is a walker because that requires writing fewer exceptions to the rules than anything else.I would ask that everyone complaining that tracked walkers shouldn't be walkers actually consider it from a game design/ conservation of detail point of view and realize that calling them walkers is clearly the best way to go about it.Rant over.Rules wise, I don't see a huge problem with it, although I think you should reconsider moves like a bike as an option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4191018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbaeza94 Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Teetengee, I was one of those. Since I'm away from my rule book for the next few months, I assumed tracked vehicles had their own rules just for movement but it has been cleared up, thanks to you and a few others. I just didn't want him to miss out on any benefits tracked rules might of had. But thank you guys for clarifying my error. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4191028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Teetengee, I was one of those. Since I'm away from my rule book for the next few months, I assumed tracked vehicles had their own rules just for movement but it has been cleared up, thanks to you and a few others. I just didn't want him to miss out on any benefits tracked rules might of had. But thank you guys for clarifying my error. sorry if I came off as overly upset, I just have seen a lot of nonsense in people saying "don't use these rules as a set, but give him almost all of those rules individually" type things on home brews and the lord of skulls. Your comment was a bit similar and I just needed to get it off my chest.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4191034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted October 8, 2015 Author Share Posted October 8, 2015 I'm not sure where the idea that innovation or radical design just never happens in 40k. The LRC came about because Black Templars needed to repair a number of Landraiders but didn't have the parts required to fix the las cannons, and that happened after the HH. The land raider Aries also came about after HH. And the sisters of battle didn't exist until after the HH, and it was the sisters of battle that discovered the STC that lead to the creation of the helhound and the LRR. That is 3 examples of just the Landraider being modified after the HH. And 2 have official box sets. I'm sure with just a little poking we can find more examples for other vehicles. And as DA we have the most unique alternative dreadnought in the entire imperium. The Rock! The mater of the forge is hard wired into the Mac system of our asteroid. Rules wise, I don't see a huge problem with it, although I think you should reconsider moves like a bike as an option. Do you mean you think this dread SHOULD move like a bike? If so that is way more powerful than I thought anyone would suggest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4191197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Developing knew technologies could have become even more Anathema (if such a thing is possible) due to the rise of the Dark Mechanicum. With all the Science Enlightenment Jazz that accompanied the Great Crusade it is possible that they were willing to stretch the rules --especially if they saw the Emperor as the fleshy Avatar of the Omnishia*. I can still see that there are Ravenwing Dreadnoughts because of the superstitions in honouring the spirit of the armour. I cant see 2nd company veterans and their experiences being ignored because they had the unfortunate of being really great in a company that doesn't have a modus operandi in using dreadnouts. I can see a battle company using a Ravenwing Dreadnought. Or even the Ravenwing as well. But it might be prudent to include "always must be deepstriked either by thunderhawk or drop pod" rule" in order to allow it to keep up with the the rest of the company. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4191266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Syddraf Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I had the idea of doing a landspeeder dreadnought years ago and personal i don't think there is any problem in running it as a normal dreadnought. The walker profile was designed around a heavily armoured unit capable of close combat, so as Teetengee said the walker is the only viable option. Remember tanks with tracks and hover tanks are still counted as the same thing rules wise Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4191578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I'm not sure where the idea that innovation or radical design just never happens in 40k. The LRC came about because Black Templars needed to repair a number of Landraiders but didn't have the parts required to fix the las cannons, and that happened after the HH. The land raider Aries also came about after HH. And the sisters of battle didn't exist until after the HH, and it was the sisters of battle that discovered the STC that lead to the creation of the helhound and the LRR. That is 3 examples of just the Landraider being modified after the HH. And 2 have official box sets. I'm sure with just a little poking we can find more examples for other vehicles. And as DA we have the most unique alternative dreadnought in the entire imperium. The Rock! The mater of the forge is hard wired into the Mac system of our asteroid. Rules wise, I don't see a huge problem with it, although I think you should reconsider moves like a bike as an option. Do you mean you think this dread SHOULD move like a bike? If so that is way more powerful than I thought anyone would suggest. yep, just cost it appropriately (it is strong, but I don't think it is incapable of being balanced), alternatively, just make it so that it moves 6" in the movement phase not slowed by difficult terrain, treats all difficult terrain as dangerous (at all times), and allow it to flat out instead of running (although it still can't assault after). you may or may not also want to consider fleet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4191756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
twopounder Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 So let me rephrase my statement the restrictions of the cult mechanicus did not permeate all of the imperial society. As the DA were loyalist, they had to obey the dogmas of the omnissiah. Even after 10,000 years of anti-imperial warfare, chaos marines still have only two choices: demon or generic imperial vehicles. You don't see a huge wealth of new equipment being created by chaos either. What you're thinking of are hereteks, which are generally a 40k thing. There are some newer examples in 30k, as the emperor's edict begins unraveling. During the emperor's reign, however, the machine cult's ideology was strictly enforced. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314477-help-with-rules-for-a-rw-dreadnought/#findComment-4193184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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