Why did each primarch turn do chaos or stay loyal

[CommanderCorvo]

Some people just don't have a reason to choose who they helped

[Raktra]

Horus - corrupted
Lorgar - scorned by the Emperor for his need to worship, found a new god
Mortarion - desperation
Angron - tricked

Magnus - desperation/betrayal

Curze - lunatic

Perturabo - resentful of how he/his legion were treated by the wider Imperium

Fulgrim - corrupted, kind of

Alpharius - we'll probably never get a straight answer

[Lord Asvaldir]

Fulgrim - corrupted, kind of

 

 

I wouldn't say Fulgrim was kinda corrupted, his betrayal was because of a pretty solid outright corruption of his values by Horus, not to mention the daemon in his sword talking to him. 

 

Magnus was pretty much forced into betrayal, he sat on the sidelines of the war for too long and was attacked by the Space Wolves, forcing him to join Horus (though I believe Horus gave the Wolves the attack order before the onset of the Heresy to ensure Magnus would join him). 

[betrayer41]

 

 

Fulgrim - corrupted, kind of

 

I wouldn't say Fulgrim was kinda corrupted, his betrayal was because of a pretty solid outright corruption of his values by Horus, not to mention the daemon in his sword talking to him.

 

Magnus was pretty much forced into betrayal, he sat on the sidelines of the war for too long and was attacked by the Space Wolves, forcing him to join Horus (though I believe Horus gave the Wolves the attack order before the onset of the Heresy to ensure Magnus would join him). [/quote

 

Also making a pact with chaos gods to save his sons kinda did him in as well

[helterskelter]

Curze suffered from the fact that no one listened to him. He tried to tell his brothers that stuff was seriously about to go awry, and was ignored. That's a surefire way to wind someone up. Then he beat the snot out of Dorn randomly. Arrested, killed some Templars and phoenix guard, and technically declared renegade for 20 years. And for some unknown reason he was still asked to go bring Horus to account.

Slow descent into madness fuelled by visions of death, betrayal and injustice, coupled with the inability of those "Loyal" to even have to slightest comprehension of anything outside their own little bubbles led to his turning. Plus he was a bit nuts

[Excessus]

They haven't come to Magnus desicion in the story yet. In the books he's still around and speaks to traitors and loyalists alike...different parts of him, shattered somehow. So far it doesn't seem like he's desperate, and being betrayed is not something they couldn't come back from (imagine the defense of the webway portal on Terra if the TS would lend their aid!). The Thousand Sons were given to Tzeentch very early by Magnus, it would be difficult to turn away from that, but some did it anyway...

 

WE know they'll turn traitor, but they don't. Not yet at least...

[Balthamal]

They haven't come to Magnus desicion in the story yet. In the books he's still around and speaks to traitors and loyalists alike...different parts of him, shattered somehow. So far it doesn't seem like he's desperate, and being betrayed is not something they couldn't come back from (imagine the defense of the webway portal on Terra if the TS would lend their aid!). The Thousand Sons were given to Tzeentch very early by Magnus, it would be difficult to turn away from that, but some did it anyway...

 

WE know they'll turn traitor, but they don't. Not yet at least...

 

Spot on. If anyone is in any doubt about that just read the epilogue in A Thousand Sons Ahriman's words "the first step on restoring the Thousand Sons to glory in the eyes of the Emperor" Hardly the motivation of someone getting ready to burn Terra.

 

As for the rest...

 

Fulgrim: There'll be a lot of debate about just how much of Fulgrim's actions were his own flaws coming to the surface or the daemon in his blade warping everything he did until he was total lost in his depravity to ever come back from. Personally I loved how Fulgrim made it out to be a grand tragedy on par with Magnus (and to a certain extent Horus and Perturabo) but that was completely undone in Reflection Crack'd which I found a shame.

 

Perturabo: An interesting one. Hard to really tell if he joined Horus because he was so bitter at the Emperor and the Imperium at large for the toll exacted on his Legion during the Great Crusade and the indifference to their deeds some had (he burned a painting celebrating a famous victory because it showed an Ultramarine, Imperial Fist and a dead Iron Warrior) or because he reacted so badly to the insurrection of Olympia that he believed the Emperor would never, ever forgive him (like he himself wouldn't have forgiven anyone else) and that his choice was either sanction from his father or join Horus and be absolved.

 

Curze: Pretty easy. He foresaw what was going to happen, tried to warn everyone and went renegade after being shot down. His own pathological need for vindication drove him to join the traitors just to prove he had been right.

 

Angron: Pretty easy. He'd always hated the Emperor for robbing him of the death he craved alongside his slave army so any chance to stomp on his father would have been right down his street.

 

Mortarion: Another interesting one. It seems he originally joined Horus because he hated seeing the Imperium developing into what he saw as tyranny from the Emperor and also a hatred of the way the Warp was employed. It's a little sketchy what Horus actually promised him but it's hinted at in Scars that it was a vow to cleanse the Warp users from the species that tipped the balance. Thereafter things get murky. It's heavily implied that after seeing the powers Horus consorts with he begins having doubts about his chosen course, until he makes a complete about turn and embraces it all himself even to the point of helping Horus plans for god-hood.

 

Magnus: No choice really. Had his world and Legion laid waste by Leman Russ despite doing everything with the very best of intentions. Be very interested to see his arc in Crimson King especially after the direction John French took him in the last Ahriman novel. There's likely a part of him that still sees himself as loyal to the Emperor and his ideals whilst there's equally likely to be an angry, vengeful side that rails against everything done to him. And amidst all that you have him being manipulated by Tzeentch.

 

Horus: Pretty tragic really. Corrupted by the machinations of Erebus although once he set foot at the edge of the cliff he threw himself clean of it. What it does come down to is seeing a future of the Imperium (the actual 40k Imperium) where all of his victories, all of his accomplishments were wiped from history and so he couldn't abide the thought of being so completely cast aside, thereby completing the vicious circle and the self-fulfilling prophecy of the Heresy (that by seeking to avoid a future where he had been consigned to oblivion he actively ensured it came about)

 

Lorgar: Out and out traitor. Spanked by the Emperor for believing in gods, then went actively looking for some and threw himself before the first ones he found instead. Although I find it most intriguing to think what would have happened if he'd had enough backbone to simply kill Erebus and Kor Pharon when they first broached the subject with him in his despair

[LongGone]

Never liked how they portrayed Mortarian's sudden about face on sorcery/the warp. I feel like he went from not even being able to look at Fulgrim's new form, to slaying some of his best warriors to summon a demon in the span of a page or two.

 

Also, where is Curze's warning covered in the fluff? I believe I may have missed that.

[grand_master85]

LongGone - Pick up Blades of the Traitors. it has a short called Daemonology by Chris Wraight. Sort of bridges the gap between Scars and Vengeful Spirit, I think. It was also released as an eBook short.

 

And Curze's vision was dealt with in the audio The Dark King, waay waay back. It's in text form in the Shadows of Treachery anthology (the one with Crimson Fist and Prince of Crows in it).

[Emperor's Furor]

I got the first limited edition copy of the Dark King and the Lightning Tower, which was only available at a Gamesday. Perturabo didn't feel his accomplishments were recognised but also regretted the destruction of his world by himself and Horus promised him clemency. The reason for why Curze the Night Lords were asked to take part in Istvaan is because their original philosophy was to basically punish traitors and it was felt that perhaps that feel still remained enough so that they'd bring Horus to his knees over it.

[helterskelter]

I got the first limited edition copy of the Dark King and the Lightning Tower, which was only available at a Gamesday. Perturabo didn't feel his accomplishments were recognised but also regretted the destruction of his world by himself and Horus promised him clemency. The reason for why Curze the Night Lords were asked to take part in Istvaan is because their original philosophy was to basically punish traitors and it was felt that perhaps that feel still remained enough so that they'd bring Horus to his knees over it.

For some peculiar reason that set my mind ticking on what would happen if curze actually did that. Could one legion have tipped the scales?

And it's a sad shame perturabo fell. Still feel it needs more fleshing out

[Marshal Rohr]

Horus betrayed the emperor because he didn't get a statue according to Graham McNeill.

[Emperor's Furor]

 

I got the first limited edition copy of the Dark King and the Lightning Tower, which was only available at a Gamesday. Perturabo didn't feel his accomplishments were recognised but also regretted the destruction of his world by himself and Horus promised him clemency. The reason for why Curze the Night Lords were asked to take part in Istvaan is because their original philosophy was to basically punish traitors and it was felt that perhaps that feel still remained enough so that they'd bring Horus to his knees over it.

For some peculiar reason that set my mind ticking on what would happen if curze actually did that. Could one legion have tipped the scales?

And it's a sad shame perturabo fell. Still feel it needs more fleshing out

 

It's covered quite well in Angel Exterminatus.

[Lord Asvaldir]

 

I got the first limited edition copy of the Dark King and the Lightning Tower, which was only available at a Gamesday. Perturabo didn't feel his accomplishments were recognised but also regretted the destruction of his world by himself and Horus promised him clemency. The reason for why Curze the Night Lords were asked to take part in Istvaan is because their original philosophy was to basically punish traitors and it was felt that perhaps that feel still remained enough so that they'd bring Horus to his knees over it.

For some peculiar reason that set my mind ticking on what would happen if curze actually did that. Could one legion have tipped the scales?

And it's a sad shame perturabo fell. Still feel it needs more fleshing out

 

 

That would still make Istvaan V be a battle between seven traitor legions and four loyalists, I don't think that would have been enough to tip the scales in the loyalists' favor, but the traitor legions would certainly suffer more casualties. 

 

However, I think the Night Lords are one of the least likely legions to stay loyalist, I mean even before the Heresy they had basically been declared renegades and were ordered back to Terra for questioning about their methods, plus Cruze always felt like he was an outsider among the primarchs. 

[Plasmablasts]

The interesting corollary is which of the Loyalist Primarch's might have turned (but didn't) and which were not even considered for corruption.

 

Sanguinius: attempted conversion to Khorne (probably deliberately scuppered by Horus)

 

Dorn: no attempt?

 

The Lion: unsuccessful approach by Tzeentch (but loses part of his legion).

 

Guilliman: (my 'phone tried to autocorrect that to "Fusilli Man"...) no attempt?

 

Vulkan: no attempt?

 

The Khan: approached by Mortarion. Decision in the balance for a while.

 

Corax: no attempt?

 

Ferrus Manus: approached by Fulgrim?

 

Russ: no obvious attempt to convert but manipulated by Horus/Chaos.

 

So, for those Primarchs who were not subject to attempted corruption, is there a reason why not? Were they deemed too unshakeably loyal to turn, or was it felt that they'd bring nothing valuable to the traitors? Did Horus deliberately choose not to have potential rivals like Guilliman and the Lion on his "team"? Did it suit the aims of Chaos better to have an even division and so more conflict, rather than a wholesale rebellion of all the legions?

[Emperor's Furor]

I think Horus outlined the Primarchs he could never turn, Dorn was one because of how close he was to the Emperor and his general attitude would never accept it. There's like categories of Primarchs tbh and the ones at the top like Dorn, Russ and Guilliman would never of turned, Sanguinius was on the edge of the upper category which is why despite Horus telling the Word Bearers to not even bother and just destroy him, they thought they knew better and went ahead and tried.

[CommanderCorvo]

But didn't Magnus "turn to Chaos" (perhaps he didn't) because of Horus because in A Thousand Sons, Russ and the custodes and sisters of silence was meant to arrest him but Horus told them that the Emperor changed his mind and wanted Magnus to die and Prospero and his legion to burn

[Lord Asvaldir]

That is correct, however as far as I know Magnus didn't know Horus gave the order, all he saw was the "emperor's executioners" (the Space Wolves), coming for him and his legion, which forced him to join Horus. 

[Emperor's Furor]

Then again Magnus knew Horus had been tainted by the warp as he tried to save him..so who knows, at the moment in the novels though he's still split (literally) on whose got his loyalties.

[CommanderCorvo]

Quote: That would still make Istvaan V be a battle between seven traitor legions and four loyalists, I don't think that would have been enough to tip the scales in the loyalists' favor, but the traitor legions would certainly suffer more casualties. End-quote

 

The siege of Terra was 8v3 although the 3 had the Imperial Guard as well

[Arkangilos]

Quote: That would still make Istvaan V be a battle between seven traitor legions and four loyalists, I don't think that would have been enough to tip the scales in the loyalists' favor, but the traitor legions would certainly suffer more casualties. End-quote

 

The siege of Terra was 8v3 although the 3 had the Imperial Guard as well

The difference is that during the Siege, they had a fortress they were in. 

 

Istvaan saw them surrounded on all sides, while assaulting a fortified line

 

When you assault, you want to have at least a 3:1 ratio. In this case, your example of the siege of Terra being that it would have meant a tipped scale by having the Night Lords is not a good one. As I said, they were inside of a fortified position, and knew exactly who they were fighting, which was the exact opposite of what happened during Istvaan.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

I got the first limited edition copy of the Dark King and the Lightning Tower, which was only available at a Gamesday. Perturabo didn't feel his accomplishments were recognised but also regretted the destruction of his world by himself and Horus promised him clemency. The reason for why Curze the Night Lords were asked to take part in Istvaan is because their original philosophy was to basically punish traitors and it was felt that perhaps that feel still remained enough so that they'd bring Horus to his knees over it.

For some peculiar reason that set my mind ticking on what would happen if curze actually did that. Could one legion have tipped the scales?

And it's a sad shame perturabo fell. Still feel it needs more fleshing out

 

Don't see why not, however, the Night Lords would be the least likely imo (as the WBs would be an impossibility). Key to that would be which side the Traitors thought the fourth Legion is on. If they're known to be loyal, then it's likely just a bigger mess, though the paranoia/sneakiness of the IW, NL and AL could have robbed the initial 'surprise' of much of its sting. However, if the IW or AL successfully keep their loyalty secret until crunch time, then you easily have an attributional nightmare, best case for the Warmaster being another pyrrhic disaster ala Istvaan III, 4 loyal Legions shattered but all his own gutted in achieving it. This is also why Legion left me with the belief that the Cabal is evil, as it seems plausible that the AL (especially as presented in that book) could have scuppered the ambush, grinding up Horus' Legions and leaving him easy pickings for Dorn, Gulliman and Russ. Heresy (though nasty) nipped in the bud, no Siege of Terra, no crippling of the Emperor, job done.

 

 

[Icarus1138]

It's important to remember that "joined Horus in his rebellion" and "sided with Chaos" aren't the same thing, not at the start of the Heresy at least. Here's a few thoughts:

 

Fulgrim. Turned by gradual influence from a demon he carried around in the form of a sword followed by a personal sales pitch from Horus, then possessed after he realized what a mistake he'd made (presumably his absolute grief and shock lowered his defenses). Imagining Fulgrim's actions had he not been possessed after killing Ferrus is an interesting what-if.

Perturabo. Hard to say, likely a combination of feeling unappreciated by the Imperium and strong emotions (grief, guilt) after attacking his own homeworld leaving him open to manipulation and more likely to make bad life choices.

Jaghatai. As shown in Scars, his loyalty could have gone either way, to his father or brother. Horus' involvement with the warp seems to have tipped him over to the Loyalist side. Fortunately for him, he had the luxury of research and pondering in a relatively stable mindset. I think many traitors would have stayed loyal had they had the same advantage.

Leman Russ. Like the Lion, no recruitment attempt was made. I'm guessing there wasn't any realistic angle of approach they could have made. Leman never showed disloyal tendencies, seemingly had no problem with the Emperor or the direction the Imperium was taking, had no larger ambitions or frustrations to take advantage of, and as the Emperor's executioner it's not like Horus could try to disillusion him like he did with Fulgrim. Leman was well aware the Imperium could be brutally hypocritical, he was one of the Emperor's go-to guys for that after all.

Konrad Curze. Night Haunter's turn seems to be a trifecta of reasons. First, after his legion's actions he was already nearly a renegade; it was a small step to treason. Second, he was deeply critical of the Emperor's seeming hypocrisy is preaching grand ideals and them employing monsters like himself. Third, having been ignored and disdained for pointing out that hypocrisy he was eager to prove his way was right (or at least needed) after all.

Sanguinius. An attempt by the Word Bearers was made to corrupt him and then turn him, similar to Fulgrim (though faster and less subtle). Horus seems to have sabotaged that in order to secure his position. Without Horus' intervention, it looks like it might have worked. A few mentions have been made of Horus' inner goodness never fully retreating, of there always being a spark of his true nobility under all the corruption. Perhaps that bit of goodness made him spare his best friend from his own fate?

Ferrus Manus. Fulgrim attempted to recruit him, as they were BFF's. Horus seemed less certain he'd go for it, but Horus also seemed to highly value Ferrus as a general (understandable as Ferrus seems to have been the second-highest ranked Primarch, after Horus) so went for the risk. I don't think Ferrus' personality was an easy target though; he was logical, focused on his job and his workshop with no distractions. He wasn't philosophical enough to think of alternatives to the path he was on, or dissatisfied with his life or role.

Angron. Raaarrrghhh! Or more seriously, the Emperor was an honorless dog that prevented Angron from saving/dying with his brothers and sisters. Not to mention that the Imperium, in Angron's eyes, sought to make every human a slave whether they wished it or not. For Angron, freedom was everything.

Mortarion. This one is honestly a puzzle to me. I don't think any books have given a good reason for Mortarion's treason. His fall to chaos was explained a little better in old fluff, with him begging for help to save his diseased legion.

Magnus. He didn't want to rebel, but he was pushed into it by Horus altering Russ' orders. What was supposed to be a justified punishment became an attempt at extermination. After Prospero, Magnus could have gone either way. He clearly kept his options open. So far he seems to have more sympathy for the loyalist side, but suspects he'll only be welcome on Horus' side. We know which way he goes but the details of his final decision haven't been covered yet.

[Arkangilos]

Sanguinius. An attempt by the Word Bearers was made to corrupt him and then turn him, similar to Fulgrim (though faster and less subtle). Horus seems to have sabotaged that in order to secure his position.

 

The problem with this is that Horus didn't know the WB and the daemons defied his orders until after it was done. He sent the daemons and WB to kill Sanguinius, they thought it would be better to turn him and so held his legion hostage. According to Swallow, he almost gave in, but a brave and noble angel jumped in and sacrificed his Soul to keep Sanguinius Pure. Erebus returned to Horus, Horus was furious and ripped off his face. So Horus didn't really sabotage the event.

 

However, I agree with the rest, that he partly wanted Sanguinius dead as an act of "kindness" 

[CommanderCorvo]

One of Mortarions reasons is that he is an arsehole