Why did each primarch turn do chaos or stay loyal

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

I don't think any of the loyalists were corruptable, that much is for certain imo.

All of the primarchs had flaws. Thus they were corruptible.

 

There are no heroes.

all can turn against the emperor, but I cannot see all of them being corrupted by the gods. It goes against many of their philosophies.

 

Unless of course they are corrupted like horus was

[DuskRaider]

Every Primarch was warp born... every Primarch had the chance of turning to Chaos, barring none.

[Ishagu]

I don't believe that at all. Dorn would never turn, and I really can't see Guilliman or Ferrus Manus doing so either.

 

Technically the Grey Knights are imbued with the warp and they're not turning to chaos

[Remus Ventanus.]

Look at loken. Horus practically begged him to turn and he refused. I strongly think if a mere astartes has that kind of will power a primarch does. 

 

And in KNF, wasnt the blade used to turn horus the same one kor used on guilliman?

[Demus Ragnok]

But thats just it chaos isnt going to run in and beat you in a contest of wills.

 

If the gods want you they make your will, their will.

Its manipulation so gentle that you dont realize you are in the water until its over your head.

[Ishagu]

He didn't actually stab Guilliman with it, he was blabbing on about the real truth of the universe and then Guilliman ripped out his heart.

[Remus Ventanus.]

He didn't actually stab Guilliman with it, he was blabbing on about the real truth of the universe and then Guilliman ripped out his heart.

Didnt he get his throat slit?

[Ishagu]

But thats just it chaos isnt going to run in and beat you in a contest of wills.

 

If the gods want you they make your will, their will.

Its manipulation so gentle that you dont realize you are in the water until its over your head.

It doesn't work on everyone, clearly. There are too many examples in 40k lore of mere mortals rejecting the dark Gods. A more stable Primarch like Dorn and Ferrus would be impossible to turn without significant warp magic similar to what happened to Horus, and even so it's not a certainty.

[Ishagu]

 

 

He didn't actually stab Guilliman with it, he was blabbing on about the real truth of the universe and then Guilliman ripped out his heart.

Didnt he get his throat slit?

I can't quite remember, it was against his throat, maybe started to cut in...

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

 

He didn't actually stab Guilliman with it, he was blabbing on about the real truth of the universe and then Guilliman ripped out his heart.

Didnt he get his throat slit?

I can't quite remember, it was against his throat, maybe started to cut in...

 

Just checked....yup it did indeed cut him

[Ishagu]

And there you have it

[DuskRaider]

Well I'm not sure what to tell you, but unlike mere mortals, Primarchs were actually co-created by the Chaos Gods. That means your Spirtual Liege's mommy / daddy is the Chaos pantheon. Not to say that the Loyalist Primarchs' fall was inevitable, but to say it's impossible is foolish.

[Marshal Loss]

If I recall correctly the only Legion that would 'never' turn (according to Alan Bligh) is the Imperial Fists, and Dorn is the only Primarch I would personally say could never turn traitor to the Emperor and his Imperium. All of them have the potential to turn, they're creatures of the warp with no exceptions, and to be honest Guilliman is actually one of the Loyalist Primarchs I think we could easily justify turning Traitor. How and whether that would lead to Chaos is a whole different matter.

 

Guilliman didn't turn after being cut with a shard of the original athame, that's true, but that doesn't mean he could never turn. I could easily imagine him doing things for the greater good and eventually being lead down the road to damnation in an alternate timeline, had things turned out differently. It's a moot point - he never turns - but resisting corruption once does not make him incorruptible. Many of the Loyalist Primarchs are definitely more solid in their loyalties than their Traitor counterparts, but Chaos is all about twisting loyalty, values and beliefs into something darker. Motivation =/= end result.

 

Turning traitor usually leads to Chaos eventually, but most Primarchs turned traitor without being fully aware of the powers they were siding with, and the same can be said of their Legions. That's why even the secular Primarchs could turn.

[Kizzdougs]

Look at loken. Horus practically begged him to turn and he refused. I strongly think if a mere astartes has that kind of will power a primarch does. 

 

And in KNF, wasnt the blade used to turn horus the same one kor used on guilliman?

The Anathame didn't turn Horus, it just wounded him so gravely that his warriors were desperate enough to leave him in the care of Erebus and the Serpent Lodge (who turned and corrupted him). The Anathame was just a means to then end.

[Arkangilos]

I honestly can't understand how anyone thinks Guilliman (and this is from a BA player, not an Ultrafan), would have turned. His actions were not disloyal. They were practical and within the realm of pure loyalty.

 

He wanted to ensure the Emperor's legacy survived. Remember, when he made that decision there was no way to contact Terra, no way to know who was alive, who had turned, who had done anything. He was stuck, and for all he knew, Terra fell. 

 

So what do you do when you think your dad died? You carry on his legacy. You want your father to live on after death. In order to do that you need to do a few things.

1) You need to ensure the family, his homes, and his possessions survive. So you reinforce. You consolidate. 

2) You need to ensure you don't get yourself killed acting rashly, so you become patient, think things through. Evaluate your next actions.

3) Having consolidated and evaluated, you make sure to remove the threats to your father's legacy, ensuring the dream and blood line flow on. 

 

Those are acts of supreme loyalty, not disloyalty. He did what he needed, not what we wanted. 

 

 

Also, the chaos gods were not co-creators. There is a difference between using warp power and teaming up with someone. The Emperor has not teamed up with anyone. And there is no actual proof of that to my knowledge.

[Remus Ventanus.]

If I recall correctly the only Legion that would 'never' turn (according to Alan Bligh) is the Imperial Fists, and Dorn is the only Primarch I would personally say could never turn traitor to the Emperor and his Imperium. All of them have the potential to turn, they're creatures of the warp with no exceptions, and to be honest Guilliman is actually one of the Loyalist Primarchs I think we could easily justify turning Traitor. How and whether that would lead to Chaos is a whole different matter.

 

Guilliman didn't turn after being cut with a shard of the original athame, that's true, but that doesn't mean he could never turn. I could easily imagine him doing things for the greater good and eventually being lead down the road to damnation in an alternate timeline, had things turned out differently. It's a moot point - he never turns - but resisting corruption once does not make him incorruptible. Many of the Loyalist Primarchs are definitely more solid in their loyalties than their Traitor counterparts, but Chaos is all about twisting loyalty, values and beliefs into something darker. Motivation =/= end result.

 

Turning traitor usually leads to Chaos eventually, but most Primarchs turned traitor without being fully aware of the powers they were siding with, and the same can be said of their Legions. That's why even the secular Primarchs could turn.

Fair points. Like I said I do think guilliman could potentially turn against the emperor for his own empire, it's just hard to imagine chaos. Having a bias is a pain....

I honestly can't understand how anyone thinks Guilliman (and this is from a BA player, not an Ultrafan), would have turned. His actions were not disloyal. They were practical and within the realm of pure loyalty.

 

He wanted to ensure the Emperor's legacy survived. Remember, when he made that decision there was no way to contact Terra, no way to know who was alive, who had turned, who had done anything. He was stuck, and for all he knew, Terra fell.

 

So what do you do when you think your dad died? You carry on his legacy. You want your father to live on after death. In order to do that you need to do a few things.

1) You need to ensure the family, his homes, and his possessions survive. So you reinforce. You consolidate.

2) You need to ensure you don't get yourself killed acting rashly, so you become patient, think things through. Evaluate your next actions.

3) Having consolidated and evaluated, you make sure to remove the threats to your father's legacy, ensuring the dream and blood line flow on.

 

Those are acts of supreme loyalty, not disloyalty. He did what he needed, not what we wanted.

 

 

Also, the chaos gods were not co-creators. There is a difference between using warp power and teaming up with someone. The Emperor has not teamed up with anyone. And there is no actual proof of that to my knowledge.

while his actions do seem very loyal, the thing that strikes me is that he didn't make it to terra. Old lore explains why but new lore has sanguinius at macragge post shadow crusade, yet somehow sanguinius still made it. Seems off why guilliman didn't make it

[DuskRaider]

I honestly can't understand how anyone thinks Guilliman (and this is from a BA player, not an Ultrafan), would have turned. His actions were not disloyal. They were practical and within the realm of pure loyalty.

 

He wanted to ensure the Emperor's legacy survived. Remember, when he made that decision there was no way to contact Terra, no way to know who was alive, who had turned, who had done anything. He was stuck, and for all he knew, Terra fell. 

 

So what do you do when you think your dad died? You carry on his legacy. You want your father to live on after death. In order to do that you need to do a few things.

1) You need to ensure the family, his homes, and his possessions survive. So you reinforce. You consolidate. 

2) You need to ensure you don't get yourself killed acting rashly, so you become patient, think things through. Evaluate your next actions.

3) Having consolidated and evaluated, you make sure to remove the threats to your father's legacy, ensuring the dream and blood line flow on. 

 

Those are acts of supreme loyalty, not disloyalty. He did what he needed, not what we wanted. 

 

 

Also, the chaos gods were not co-creators. There is a difference between using warp power and teaming up with someone. The Emperor has not teamed up with anyone. And there is no actual proof of that to my knowledge.

#1) Any Primarch could have turned to Chaos. Any of them. If Horus and Fulgrim could, any of them could.

 

#2) Yes, the Chaos Gods were the co-creators of the Primarchs.

[Arkangilos]

 

I honestly can't understand how anyone thinks Guilliman (and this is from a BA player, not an Ultrafan), would have turned. His actions were not disloyal. They were practical and within the realm of pure loyalty.

 

He wanted to ensure the Emperor's legacy survived. Remember, when he made that decision there was no way to contact Terra, no way to know who was alive, who had turned, who had done anything. He was stuck, and for all he knew, Terra fell. 

 

So what do you do when you think your dad died? You carry on his legacy. You want your father to live on after death. In order to do that you need to do a few things.

1) You need to ensure the family, his homes, and his possessions survive. So you reinforce. You consolidate. 

2) You need to ensure you don't get yourself killed acting rashly, so you become patient, think things through. Evaluate your next actions.

3) Having consolidated and evaluated, you make sure to remove the threats to your father's legacy, ensuring the dream and blood line flow on. 

 

Those are acts of supreme loyalty, not disloyalty. He did what he needed, not what we wanted. 

 

 

Also, the chaos gods were not co-creators. There is a difference between using warp power and teaming up with someone. The Emperor has not teamed up with anyone. And there is no actual proof of that to my knowledge.

#1) Any Primarch could have turned to Chaos. Any of them. If Horus and Fulgrim could, any of them could.

 

#2) Yes, the Chaos Gods were the co-creators of the Primarchs.

 

Can you provide a source for #2?

 

As for number 1, we don't have any proof of that either way. So maybe they could have turned, maybe they could not have. We don't know, and we'll never know.

 

while his actions do seem very loyal, the thing that strikes me is that he didn't make it to terra. Old lore explains why but new lore has sanguinius at macragge post shadow crusade, yet somehow sanguinius still made it. Seems off why guilliman didn't make it 

 

Maybe he had to buy time for Sanguinius to make it?

[DuskRaider]

I believe it was in Vengeful Spirit? It's been talked about in the books, that I know. And like I said, to try and say that Primarch X, Y, or Z is incorruptible is foolish.

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

 

I honestly can't understand how anyone thinks Guilliman (and this is from a BA player, not an Ultrafan), would have turned. His actions were not disloyal. They were practical and within the realm of pure loyalty.

 

He wanted to ensure the Emperor's legacy survived. Remember, when he made that decision there was no way to contact Terra, no way to know who was alive, who had turned, who had done anything. He was stuck, and for all he knew, Terra fell. 

 

So what do you do when you think your dad died? You carry on his legacy. You want your father to live on after death. In order to do that you need to do a few things.

1) You need to ensure the family, his homes, and his possessions survive. So you reinforce. You consolidate. 

2) You need to ensure you don't get yourself killed acting rashly, so you become patient, think things through. Evaluate your next actions.

3) Having consolidated and evaluated, you make sure to remove the threats to your father's legacy, ensuring the dream and blood line flow on. 

 

Those are acts of supreme loyalty, not disloyalty. He did what he needed, not what we wanted. 

 

 

Also, the chaos gods were not co-creators. There is a difference between using warp power and teaming up with someone. The Emperor has not teamed up with anyone. And there is no actual proof of that to my knowledge.

 

#1) Any Primarch could have turned to Chaos. Any of them. If Horus and Fulgrim could, any of them could.

 

#2) Yes, the Chaos Gods were the co-creators of the Primarchs.

Can you provide a source for #2?

 

As for number 1, we don't have any proof of that either way. So maybe they could have turned, maybe they could not have. We don't know, and we'll never know.

 

while his actions do seem very loyal, the thing that strikes me is that he didn't make it to terra. Old lore explains why but new lore has sanguinius at macragge post shadow crusade, yet somehow sanguinius still made it. Seems off why guilliman didn't make it

 

Maybe he had to buy time for Sanguinius to make it?

It's certainly possible. I recall ADB saying " the reason for the ultramarines not making it will blow your minds" or something like that.

 

Back to all loyalist primarchs, I do agree that they could fall of it was in the same manner as horus.

[Arkangilos]

I believe it was in Vengeful Spirit? It's been talked about in the books, that I know. And like I said, to try and say that Primarch X, Y, or Z is incorruptible is foolish.

Are you sure that wasn't just one interpretation of it? Could it not be that the Emperor took the powers from them in some other way and used it, without them being co-creators? 

[Remus Ventanus.]

I believe it was in Vengeful Spirit? It's been talked about in the books, that I know. And like I said, to try and say that Primarch X, Y, or Z is incorruptible is foolish.

vengeful spirit talked about how the emperor stole powers from the gods I believe.

[DuskRaider]

The Emperor was infused with the power of a God at the behest of Chaos on Molech. In turn, he used said power given to him by Chaos to create the 20 Primarchs. Made from the power of Chaos and the Emperor's DNA. You could look at Primarchs as half-daemon and you wouldn't be wrong. They are made with the very power of Chaos, which means they have a direct link to the Gods and all are capable of corruption. That half didn't was a small miracle, and a gamble the Emperor seemed alright with taking at their inception.

[Arkangilos]

The Emperor was infused with the power of a God at the behest of Chaos on Molech. In turn, he used said power given to him by Chaos to create the 20 Primarchs. Made from the power of Chaos and the Emperor's DNA. You could look at Primarchs as half-daemon and you wouldn't be wrong. They are made with the very power of Chaos, which means they have a direct link to the Gods and all are capable of corruption. That half didn't was a small miracle, and a gamble the Emperor seemed alright with taking at their inception.

Can you provide an actual quote on that?

 

Also, them being corruptible really didn't have to do with them being half daemon. Them being half "human" did. They were corrupted in the exact same way humans were.

[DuskRaider]

I don't know, search for it on here. There was a whole thread on it a while back, may have been for Vengeful Spirit. It doesn't matter what half of them made them more susceptible to Chaos, it's the fact that they are which you don't seem to get. It's even stated many a time that each Primarch heard Chaos whispering to them.