Remus Ventanus. Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I need to read Fear to tread again. I thought Sanguinius was on the verge of turning until one of his sons took his place and became the "red angel"the angel is a heretic!?.... Haven't read that novel, skipped it but I may pick it up now Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4192702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I need to read Fear to tread again. I thought Sanguinius was on the verge of turning until one of his sons took his place and became the "red angel"the angel is a heretic!?.... Haven't read that novel, skipped it but I may pick it up now For the love of the Emperor, don't Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4192742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I need to read Fear to tread again. I thought Sanguinius was on the verge of turning until one of his sons took his place and became the "red angel" the angel is a heretic!?....Haven't read that novel, skipped it but I may pick it up now For the love of the Emperor, don't That bad? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4192745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I need to read Fear to tread again. I thought Sanguinius was on the verge of turning until one of his sons took his place and became the "red angel"the angel is a heretic!?....Haven't read that novel, skipped it but I may pick it up now For the love of the Emperor, don't That bad? It killed by passion as a BA player. I was actually looking forward to doing them in the heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4192763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 FtT suffers from the same problem as many if the other non-Abnett ADB heresy novels. It's a good book, technically, but in the universe it doesn't appeal to most readers. They just don't like what the authors do with the characters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4192809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob P Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 FtT suffered from the fact that all the interesting stuff (which wasn't interesting enough) happened before they got to the Signus Cluster. The ending is weird in some ways. Horus wanted Sanguinius dead because if he joined the traitors Horus was concerned that he would be a valid rival for the top job. However, the nature of the corruption would have, presumably, turned Sanguinius into the equivalent of Daemon Angron. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4192874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 FtT suffers from the same problem as many if the other non-Abnett ADB heresy novels. It's a good book, technically, but in the universe it doesn't appeal to most readers. They just don't like what the authors do with the characters. This is wrong on so many levels. The nove is bad because : < A it goes nowhere for the first 2/3s of the novel. Seriously, there is so much poking and proding, and Sanguinius doesn't even get those little alarm bells that should sound off when he gets on location that something is deeply wrong. B It's not that I did not like what was done with the characters, it's that it does nothing with the characters. Half of Sanguinius's quotes are really bad puns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4192875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Hey. Half of my quotes are really bad puns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4192924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I hated how they made Sanguinius almost jump into the flame and convert to save his legion. Fortunately one of his children were like, "Screw you!" and he jumped in instead. I mean, it was awesome when Sanguinius got pissed because he kicked the crap out of the daemon. Flung him around by his ankle, cut off another ones head, and just totally trashed them. That was epic. Honestly, I've gotten to where I discount everything Swallow writes as good fan fiction. I don't mean offense to him, but his stuff just a) doesn't fit, and b) is contradicted in a lot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4193011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TemujinZero Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 A point about Horus. While it's easy to think him as flawed from the outset given hindsight, I think it's important to remember that Horus' fall was supposed to show that anyone, even the greatest of the primarchs, raised by the Emperor himself, can be corrupted by chaos. Of course it's hard to imagine Dorn or Russ falling under any circumstances, but we're supposed to have felt the same way about Horus. Perhaps the writing hasn't lived up to this aim, but it's clear that this is how people feel in universe. For all of Dorn's stubborn loyalty, his certainty is broken utterly by Horus' betrayal. He knows that anything that could turn Horus is something that none of them can feel safe from. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4193091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 Technically, Horus died. He's not really in control of what's going on, his body is more or less possessed by the 4 Gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4193100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Lacerus Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 I'm not seeing much talk about Vulkan here. Not sure if it's just because he isn't one of the more popular primarchs, or if it's because anyone can't see a reason for him to fall. I personally can't think of much that would sway him. Maybe if you could somehow trick him into thinking Chaos is good for humanity...however all I can picture him doing is staring back at you with a scowl and calling you a :cussing idiot. Also, it would seem some people are confusing the WARP and CHAOS as the same thing. Chaos may dwell within the warp, but they are not the same thing at all. Just because warp-juice was used to create the primarchs, does not make the chaos gods co-creators. Like, at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4193130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 Technically, Horus died. He's not really in control of what's going on, his body is more or less possessed by the 4 Gods. He is not controlled. The substlety of what happen on Lupercalia is very interesting. The Emperor, a greater being than horus in every way, had to outwit chaos to steal it's strength/power/secrets. What it did to Horus is make him believe that he had mastered it and submitted it to his will and granted him the power in return. That which is granted by Chaos can be taken away in an instant. They could not get him to bend the knee (Horus constantly remindd them of that) so they made sure he would feel in control. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4193131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 I wonder if horus would have allowed the davanite priests to help him, knowing what they were, or if he would have pulled a loken, and would have chosen death Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4193143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 I think he would have chosen death, especially if his last moment is anything to go by. He was perhaps the only Primarch to view the Emperor truly as a father. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4193146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 I think he would have chosen death, especially if his last moment is anything to go by. He was perhaps the only Primarch to view the Emperor truly as a father. Indeed. Perhaps sanguinius as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4193150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 I think most of the Primarchs would have, with the exception of perhaps Angron and Lorgar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4193153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 Also, it would seem some people are confusing the WARP and CHAOS as the same thing. Chaos may dwell within the warp, but they are not the same thing at all. Just because warp-juice was used to create the primarchs, does not make the chaos gods co-creators. Like, at all.Actually the co-creator bit comes from the First Heretic and Vengeful Spirit, where two differents claim that the power used to create the Primarchs wasn'r drawn just from the warp, but from the Gods themselves. The fact that the whole point of Vengeful Spirit was for Horus to follow the Emperor's footsteps in achieving that power and that the Emperor left a Perpetual in charge of protecting that gateway certainly does lend credit to those suspect statements, but still doesn'r necessarily prove them true. Although if it is true and the Chaos Gods are co-creators, then it would certainly explain where Magnus got the idea that he could make a deal and then break it without having to worry about the consequences being too dire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4193201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Lacerus Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 Also, it would seem some people are confusing the WARP and CHAOS as the same thing. Chaos may dwell within the warp, but they are not the same thing at all. Just because warp-juice was used to create the primarchs, does not make the chaos gods co-creators. Like, at all.Actually the co-creator bit comes from the First Heretic and Vengeful Spirit, where two differents claim that the power used to create the Primarchs wasn'r drawn just from the warp, but from the Gods themselves. The fact that the whole point of Vengeful Spirit was for Horus to follow the Emperor's footsteps in achieving that power and that the Emperor left a Perpetual in charge of protecting that gateway certainly does lend credit to those suspect statements, but still doesn'r necessarily prove them true. Although if it is true and the Chaos Gods are co-creators, then it would certainly explain where Magnus got the idea that he could make a deal and then break it without having to worry about the consequences being too dire. Fair enough but even if it is true, I still think the term co-creator is incorrect. It would imply they willingly and knowingly helped create them, which are both false. Yeah they discovered they existed and dispersed them throughout the galaxy, but they didn't actually help create the primarchs. I guess that's just my opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4193211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 It was the chaos gods who suggested they had a hand in the Primarch creation, correct? Seeing as chaos are all about lies, deceit and twisting the truth why does anyone believe that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4193305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 I have a problem with the lions loyalty. All the time. If memory serves the watchers in the Dark wanted to kill him. He made back door deals with Perturbo to get him on side, and he accepted what some alien/demon thing said and used it to get the jump on Curze but not kill typhon? Who cares about what he says, it's what he does. The lion is loyal to his own agenda, and of that happens to coincide with the Emperor/imperium winning then he can sit on his high horse and say oh yeah I was loyal the whole time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4193319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TemujinZero Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 The Lion's loyalty is certainly less than spotless, but at the same time he has demonstrated straight forward loyalty just as often as he's acted suspiciously. I think it's better to think of the Lion's loyalties as complicated rather than explicitly in doubt. It's also very unfair to say he's sitting it out waiting to see who wins. That seems to be Luther's approach on Caliban, but the Lion was in the thick of the fighting as soon as he learned about the Heresy. His participation in Guilliman's traitorous Imperium Secundus doesn't bode well, but even Sanguinius is going along with that for now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4193412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBlades Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 I wonder if Vulkan could be turned to Chaos by showing him glimpses of the future that follows theEmperor's victory over Horus: technological regression, descent back into superstition and god worship, entire planets being purged at the whims of single inquisitors for 'heresy' or simply to hide varipus facts etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4193416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 The Lion's loyalty is certainly less than spotless, but at the same time he has demonstrated straight forward loyalty just as often as he's acted suspiciously. I think it's better to think of the Lion's loyalties as complicated rather than explicitly in doubt. It's also very unfair to say he's sitting it out waiting to see who wins. That seems to be Luther's approach on Caliban, but the Lion was in the thick of the fighting as soon as he learned about the Heresy. His participation in Guilliman's traitorous Imperium Secundus doesn't bode well, but even Sanguinius is going along with that for now. Imperium Secundus is not traitorous. It's actually an act of loyalty to create it. And again, if you actually used your brain, what would you do if you can't get to your dad's house (because it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE), but you were able to fortify where you were? Would you run into a flame, wasting your resources? Or would you fortify and consolidate so that you can fight the person that potentially murdered your dad? That is why each of the Primarchs that were there participated in it. Because they are smart, know strategy, use logic. As soon as they are able, we know that the Blood Angels go to Terra. The Ultramarines may have had to stay back in order to enable that, making sacrifices to buy them time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4193421 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 The IS is a pragmatic solution, that only in hindsight is revealed to be more damaging to the cause than if they had attempted to go to Terra. We know getting to Terra is entirely possible. Parts of the Retribution Fleet, Corax, and Russ all return during the Age of Darkness. There was no reason the legions at the IS couldn't have too, aside from not wanting to arrive into a trap. Edit: the Ultramarines would've had the hardest time because they lacked a fleet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/5/#findComment-4193427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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