Why did each primarch turn do chaos or stay loyal

[Arkangilos]

Russ definitely did not make it back before the Blood Angels, and from what I remember the Ruin Storm made it impossible for anyone in Ultramar to leave. In fact, I remember someone saying that RG said that as soon as they could travel, RG would do everything in his power to make sure Sanguinius and his Blood Angels could make it.

 

That's what Calth was all about, creating a warp storm to prevent them from making it back.

[Marshal Rohr]

Russ definitely did not make it back before the Blood Angels, and from what I remember the Ruin Storm made it impossible for anyone in Ultramar to leave. In fact, I remember someone saying that RG said that as soon as they could travel, RG would do everything in his power to make sure Sanguinius and his Blood Angels could make it.

 

That's what Calth was all about, creating a warp storm to prevent them from making it back.

 

Russ did make it back to Terra during the AoD. He played chess with Malcador and they had a moment talking about why Dorn wouldn't ask Russ to stay. 

[Kol Saresk]

Russ definitely did not make it back before the Blood Angels, and from what I remember the Ruin Storm made it impossible for anyone in Ultramar to leave. In fact, I remember someone saying that RG said that as soon as they could travel, RG would do everything in his power to make sure Sanguinius and his Blood Angels could make it.

 

That's what Calth was all about, creating a warp storm to prevent them from making it back.

Calth was the birth point of the Ruinstorm, but it was not the only sacrifice to create it. We learn from Betrayer that 100 worlds in total were sacrificed almost simultaneously in order to make the Ruinstorm what it was, with the side benefit of creating enough juice to turn Angron into a Daemon Prince. That said, the Ruinstorm does have some safe methods of travel through it as Lorgar pointed out and it is easier to travel into Ultramar than out. Although travel into it is assisted by the warp beacon Guilliman is using to illuminate Macragge while travel out either requires knowledge of the routes that lead through the Ruinstorm or just sailing through and hoping. After all, the Salamanders did manage to get Vulkan from Ultramar back to Nocturne.

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

Russ definitely did not make it back before the Blood Angels, and from what I remember the Ruin Storm made it impossible for anyone in Ultramar to leave. In fact, I remember someone saying that RG said that as soon as they could travel, RG would do everything in his power to make sure Sanguinius and his Blood Angels could make it.

 

That's what Calth was all about, creating a warp storm to prevent them from making it back.

Calth was the birth point of the Ruinstorm, but it was not the only sacrifice to create it. We learn from Betrayer that 100 worlds in total were sacrificed almost simultaneously in order to make the Ruinstorm what it was, with the side benefit of creating enough juice to turn Angron into a Daemon Prince. That said, the Ruinstorm does have some safe methods of travel through it as Lorgar pointed out and it is easier to travel into Ultramar than out. Although travel into it is assisted by the warp beacon Guilliman is using to illuminate Macragge while travel out either requires knowledge of the routes that lead through the Ruinstorm or just sailing through and hoping. After all, the Salamanders did manage to get Vulkan from Ultramar back to Nocturne.

 

This is what im very curious about. Just how successfull was the ruinstorm? Clearly people are leaving and coming ultramar as they wish, so did it actually work? 

[LordBlades]

 

 

The Lion's loyalty is certainly less than spotless, but at the same time he has demonstrated straight forward loyalty just as often as he's acted suspiciously. I think it's better to think of the Lion's loyalties as complicated rather than explicitly in doubt. It's also very unfair to say he's sitting it out waiting to see who wins. That seems to be Luther's approach on Caliban, but the Lion was in the thick of the fighting as soon as he learned about the Heresy. His participation in Guilliman's traitorous Imperium Secundus doesn't bode well, but even Sanguinius is going along with that for now.

Imperium Secundus is not traitorous. It's actually an act of loyalty to create it. And again, if you actually used your brain, what would you do if you can't get to your dad's house (because it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE), but you were able to fortify where you were? Would you run into a flame, wasting your resources? Or would you fortify and consolidate so that you can fight the person that potentially murdered your dad?

 

That is why each of the Primarchs that were there participated in it. Because they are smart, know strategy, use logic.

 

As soon as they are able, we know that the Blood Angels go to Terra. The Ultramarines may have had to stay back in order to enable that, making sacrifices to buy them time.

Or they might have seen it as 'the easy way'.

 

The way I see it: if Guilliman was even 10% the strategist he thought himself to be, it would be clear for him the bulk of Horus' forces is heading to Terra. If he really wants to preserve the Imperium (and not just Ultramar), he should use the time he has to make preparations to reach Terra once it is possible, not fortify in Ultramar.

 

By choosing to fortify Ultramar, Guilliman is preparing not to help the Emperor win, but for what happens after the Emperor loses. The Inquisition has comdemned people for way less :)

 

IMO there are two possible outcomes after Horus takes Guilliman might be preparing from:

 

Repelling an attack on Ultramar, even if he has 1-3 legions and Horus has 9 (although depleted of fighting).

 

Offering to pay lip service to the new master and pointing out he stayed out of Horus' quarrel with the Emperor and hoping the combination of him being prepared and Horus being depleted of fighting might force the lattet to allow Imperium Secundus to exist.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

Russ definitely did not make it back before the Blood Angels, and from what I remember the Ruin Storm made it impossible for anyone in Ultramar to leave. In fact, I remember someone saying that RG said that as soon as they could travel, RG would do everything in his power to make sure Sanguinius and his Blood Angels could make it.

 

That's what Calth was all about, creating a warp storm to prevent them from making it back.

Calth was the birth point of the Ruinstorm, but it was not the only sacrifice to create it. We learn from Betrayer that 100 worlds in total were sacrificed almost simultaneously in order to make the Ruinstorm what it was, with the side benefit of creating enough juice to turn Angron into a Daemon Prince. That said, the Ruinstorm does have some safe methods of travel through it as Lorgar pointed out and it is easier to travel into Ultramar than out. Although travel into it is assisted by the warp beacon Guilliman is using to illuminate Macragge while travel out either requires knowledge of the routes that lead through the Ruinstorm or just sailing through and hoping. After all, the Salamanders did manage to get Vulkan from Ultramar back to Nocturne.

This is what im very curious about. Just how successfull was the ruinstorm? Clearly people are leaving and coming ultramar as they wish, so did it actually work?

Well, I don't think it was ever meant to stop people from coming in. In the novella Aurelian, one of the things that convinced Lorgar to not lead the attack on Calth was that Guilliman's survival would draw many to his realm and away from Terra. That said, the Watch-Pack that made it Macragge had to fight daemons the whole way there and I haven't read Deathfire so I can't be absolutely sure, but I'm willing to bet that the Salamanders had to face a pretty similar ordeal leaving. It's not likely they're walking through a bed of roses. The Sea of Souls is just that, a sea. Albeit an extra-dimensional sea. It has currents that make certain routes safer and others less so. The Ruinstorm is hurricane. You can sail through it and survive or you can attempt and die. The routes Lorgar knows make the Traitors' travel through the Ruinstorm the equivalent of taking a deep sea submersible well below the effects of the storm while everyone else has to deal with the crashing waves and the daemons because their Geller fields have been rendered useless.

 

But ultimately I think its truest purpose was to make Angron a daemon prince. Everything else was a side benefit that Lorgar played off as being the main purpose. Not necessarily because he cared about his brother but because a Daemon Primarch is more valuable than a normal Primarch in terms of survivability.

 

EDIT: Stupid phone automatically refreshed and posted. Please hold for rest of post. Post is finished.

[Remus Ventanus.]

The Lion's loyalty is certainly less than spotless, but at the same time he has demonstrated straight forward loyalty just as often as he's acted suspiciously. I think it's better to think of the Lion's loyalties as complicated rather than explicitly in doubt. It's also very unfair to say he's sitting it out waiting to see who wins. That seems to be Luther's approach on Caliban, but the Lion was in the thick of the fighting as soon as he learned about the Heresy. His participation in Guilliman's traitorous Imperium Secundus doesn't bode well, but even Sanguinius is going along with that for now.

Imperium Secundus is not traitorous. It's actually an act of loyalty to create it. And again, if you actually used your brain, what would you do if you can't get to your dad's house (because it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE), but you were able to fortify where you were? Would you run into a flame, wasting your resources? Or would you fortify and consolidate so that you can fight the person that potentially murdered your dad?

That is why each of the Primarchs that were there participated in it. Because they are smart, know strategy, use logic.

As soon as they are able, we know that the Blood Angels go to Terra. The Ultramarines may have had to stay back in order to enable that, making sacrifices to buy them time.

Or they might have seen it as 'the easy way'.

The way I see it: if Guilliman was even 10% the strategist he thought himself to be, it would be clear for him the bulk of Horus' forces is heading to Terra. If he really wants to preserve the Imperium (and not just Ultramar), he should use the time he has to make preparations to reach Terra once it is possible, not fortify in Ultramar.

By choosing to fortify Ultramar, Guilliman is preparing not to help the Emperor win, but for what happens after the Emperor loses. The Inquisition has comdemned people for way less

IMO there are two possible outcomes after Horus takes Guilliman might be preparing from:

Repelling an attack on Ultramar, even if he has 1-3 legions and Horus has 9 (although depleted of fighting).

Offering to pay lip service to the new master and pointing out he stayed out of Horus' quarrel with the Emperor and hoping the combination of him being prepared and Horus being depleted of fighting might force the lattet to allow Imperium Secundus to exist.

Problem is Roboute didnt know if the emperor was still alive. If he B lined straight for terra, and the emperor was alreday dead, then ultramar is left defensless, and the imperium is surely doomed.

I recall in tempest something about "if the ultramarines had warning of horus' treachery, they could form a bastion that could resist his rebellion" or somehting.

So while it may not be what we wanted him to do, it surely makes sense as to why he did it. By staying in ultramar he ensure the imperium survives

[LordBlades]

He ensures that his Imperium Secundus and legacy survives, since he can't really do much about the rest of the galaxy.

[TennisBall]

Roboute Guilliman could have easily turned against the Emperor if things had turned out just a tiny bit different than they did. Macragge was ruled by two Consuls, the upstanding and benevolent Konor Guilliman and the selfish and greedy Gallan.

 

....

 

Roboute Guilliman could have turned out very different with just minute changes in his development.

I totally agree. I think Guilliman is very similar to Lorgar and the only real difference between the two is which planet they ended up on. Even Lorgar's search for a god to worship was likely the result of growing up around the chaos-derived beliefs of Colchis, something which Guilliman was not exposed to.

 

As is though in the timeline, Guilliman would not have betrayed the Emperor, certainly not to support Horus, he would have sought mediation betwen them. Guilliman was also too emotionally invested in Ultramar to join the heresy, a number of the others had ties to a single planet, a couple of them even wiped their homeworlds out.

[Phoebus]

My perspective:

It obviously starts with Lorgar. His rejection by the Emperor led to him undergoing a pilgrimage for the truth behind the mundane universe. That truth ended up being Chaos. It was a terrible truth, and worship of the Ruinous Powers required a steep price in bloodshed, but to Lorgar it was better than the lie the Emperor propagated. The seeds of Lorgar's rebellion were sewn by his Chaplains and the Lodges, both of which were spread throughout many (most?) of the Legiones Astartes.

 

The greatest coup of Lorgar's was to bring Horus into the fold of Chaos. Of course, this required more than mere manipulation. The influence of the Ruinous Powers was prevalent throughout this plot. Ultimately, Horus was wounded unto death and put into a state where he would be susceptible to a very manipulative vision of the future: a vision intended to play on his ego while simultaneously making him believe that he was to be betrayed by his father and brothers. Magnus attempted to warn Horus, but to no avail.

 

The order in which the rest of the traitor Primarchs turned to Chaos is not entirely clear. Let's first look at the three Legions that were with Horus and his Sons at Isstvan III:

 

Fulgrim's turn to Chaos would appear to be due to a combination of daemonic corruption (vis-a-vis the possessed Laer blade) and his own ego and vanity coming into play. My personal opinion is that the latter looks like the weaker angle, but such is life.

 

Angron and his World Eaters were present for the culling and purging actions that occurred on Isstvan III. At the very least, Angron appears to have been set on opposing the Emperor prior to the events of Isstvan III, rightly or wrongly believing his father to be a tyrant who must be opposed. It has been hinted even before the Horus Heresy series started that at the beginning of the revolt Horus had played on that rebelliousness to turn his brother. At any rate, the record since the series commenced seems somewhat contradictory. Khârn would appear to be under the influence of Chaos in Galaxy in Flames, but later releases (most notably, "Lord of the Red Sands" and Betrayer) make it seem as if the XII Legion and their primarch didn't turn to Khorne until the events of the Shadow Crusade.

 

Not much light has been shed, as of yet, on Mortarion's fall. We have some vague statements (dating to before the series started) that make it seem as if Mortarion resented the Emperor's succeeding where he failed  against the xenos overlords of Barbarus. Whatever the true case may be, Mortarion and the Death Guard do not appear to have actually taken up Chaos worship as a whole (though Typhon was already an agent of Nurgle, and one can safely state he was not alone) prior to Isstvan III. It would seem as if that conversion doesn't actually begin until after the burning of Prospero and the Isstvan V Dropsite Massacres. By the time the events of Vengeful Spirit unfold, Mortarion has gone from witch-hater to dabbler of sorcery and Chaotic rituals.

 

Next, let's look at the Legions that joined the known Traitors at the Isstvan V Dropsite Massacres:

There have been hints that Perturabo turned because of Horus's manipulations, due to a Chaotic artifact (again, gifted by Horus), because his retaliation against the revolt of Olympia led him to believe he would be destroyed, and so on. Perhaps it's just one of those, or a combination of all three. I think Angel Exterminatus, however, plausibly hints that exposure to the Eye of Terror (by dint of Olympia's proximity to that wound in reality) may have left Perturabo open to corruption.

 

Konrad Curze has always been a complex character, and pinning down his reasons for joining the Traitors has only become more difficult as time has passed (and more stories have been told). At the end of the day, it's safe to say that a belief that he was unable to forestall the future, a perverted sense of justice, a twisted desire to see his own beliefs about Humanity and his brother-primarchs vindicated/validated, and, well, sheer nihilism all played a role in the Night Haunter joining Horus and his allies.

 

Alpharius and Omegon are a puzzle that will probably never be properly put together. What we do have good reason for believing, however, is that their initial decision to join the Traitors came down to believing that Horus Lupercal had to destroy the Emperor - and, for all intents and purposes, Humanity - if Chaos were to ultimately be destroyed. Where Alpharius and Omegon stand as the story progresses is open to interpretation. It's at least heavily hinted (if not outright stated) that they are no longer of one mind, and that their factions within the Legion find one another as the twin brothers pursue their individual agendas.

 

Finally, we have Magnus and the Thousand Sons. That tale is yet to be told. We do know Magnus made terrible choices for the best of reasons, and that betraying the Emperor was - at least up until a certain, hitherto unreached point - unimaginable to him.

[Dantay VI]

We know exactly what happened with Magnus and the Thousand Sons, it is in A Thousand Sons.

 

The 16th Legion was in a desperate state prior to meeting Magnus and were afflicted heavily with the "flesh change". Magnus, being Magnus, thought he knew how to cure the problem. By using the Great Ocean to stabilize the genes of his sons. I would go even so far as to say he made a pact with Tzeentch...

 

Thinking his power and knowledge to be limitless he thirsted to learn more about the world around him and the aether. Believing himself strong enough to control both.

Despite repeated warnings about not delving too deep into the warp by the Emperor and I suspect others. Plus warnings from the Fenryka Rune Priest Wyrdmake to Ahriman about going too far, they ignored all advice and warnings, plunging deeper and deeper into the mysteries.

 

Undoubtedly the warp can be used for good, but its use should be limited in case the user loses control and the warp can take control. Magnus and his Sons believing themselves superior, gave up their self-control and allowed hubris to rule over them. Thinking themselves superior they went too far, thinking themselves safe.

 

Whether to protect his sons or to hide his lack of knowledge, Magnus kept the truth from his legion about how he stabilized their genes.

 

The trial of Magnus, wasn't really his trial, but a tribunal to discuss the librarian issue. A Thousand Sons shows it from the Thousand Sons viewpoint where they were persecuted for using the Great Ocean.... In truth it was because Magnus was the main Primarch to defend the libraries which is why he was the focus... It also was not a trial of the Thousand Sons.

 

Basically the Imperium knew that the libraries could do great things, but unchecked it could be used just as potently against the Imperium of Man. If the powerful Magnus and his legion the greatest of the librarians could not be trusted to restrain themselves, then what hope was there for the other librarians?

Rather than come down on Magnus alone, the Emperor decided there should be no libraries at all, thus ensuring that NO LEGIONNARY OR PRIMARCH would be a conduit for the powers of the warp to exploit. As this would affect the Thousand Sons the greatest of course they felt harshly done by. It is interesting to note also that during his speech at the council of Nikea Magnus was using some of his warpcraft to exert a little influence on the audience.

 

Rather than do what most other legions did and dismantle the libraries, Magnus over-ruled his father (hubris again) and kept them open, which was a deceit on a grand scale, still allowing his sons to go further into damnation. Further to this and with the greatest of intentions he tried to stop the fall of Horus using warp-craft, the using it again he transported himself to Terra to warn the Emperor, destroying the Emperors great works and endangering Terra.

 

Pissed at the damage done, but also realizing that Magnus had deliberately defied the proclamation of Nikea. Russ was dispatched to bring Magnus to Terra to face the Emperor/

 

Magnus having seen the Emperors great plan and the damage he had wrought was greatly affected by what he had done and locked himself in seclusion. During this time the powers of the warp came to Magnus and revealed he had been a chump all along, that they had been playing him & they were now here to collect their debt.

 

En route to Prospero, the Warmaster altered Russ' orders and he was told to unleash the Wolves on Prospero. Not knowing the Warmaster was corrupted they followed their orders.

 

This did several things.

First it took the Thousand Sons out of the game for a while,

It would rid Horus of the Thousand Sons who were a potent and deadly psychic force which would threaten his new allies powers and ruin his chances of taking the throne on Terra.

Should the Sons survive, they would no longer be seen as loyal to the Imperium, even though in their hearts they were, and would be forced to run. In the end, trapped between 2 great forces they allied themselves with the force which would take them in and so joined Horus out of necessity.

It rid the Imperium of a powerful psychic defense against the traitors which would have been mightily handy in combatting all the daemons

It tied down the Wolves and saw them severely depleted making them less of an opposing force and hopefully easy prey for the Alpha Legion. 

 

Anyways now knowing how badly he had been duped and knowing the Wolves were coming Magnus hid their arrival from his legion even going so far as to kill one of his captains when they discovered the truth... And only came out of hiding to fight when he saw his world and his legion getting all torn up.

The Thousand Sons used their powers as never before to defend themselves, to the point they lost all control and a great many succumbed to the "flesh change".

 

This further gave the Wolves a feeling of vindication that the Sons had gone too far and required censure.

 

Having had his back broken by Russ, Magnus fled into the warp and took the greater part of his legion wit him to the planet of Sorcerors, I would presume that it was at this point or just prior that Magnus seeing no other way to save his legion made a pact with Chaos.

 

Or atleast that is my take on things :D

[Excessus]

I would presume that it was at this point or just prior that Magnus seeing no other way to save his legion made a pact with Chaos.

The rest was a pretty ok account of what happened, but we haven't seen the quoted part yet.

 

 

But, I think you got your numbers wrong:

 

The 16th Legion

[Phoebus]

We know exactly what happened with Magnus and the Thousand Sons, it is in A Thousand Sons.

As others already stated, the Thousand Sons did not turn to Chaos immediately after the burning of Prospero. Those events certainly contributed to them doing so, as did the influence of Tzeentch going back to their creation, but something else - as of yet not shown - pushed them over the edge.

[Ishagu]

I still don't think that aside from Lorgar and Horus, any of the other Primarchs truly had a good reason for turning :-/

[TemujinZero]

From Magnus' perspective, his pact with Tzeentch to save his legion from the flesh change was not a pact with a ruinous god, because he refused to look at the entities in the warp in those terms.  In his eye, the idea of the warp as this nightmare realm filled with predators and ruled by gods of chaos, was a misguided view with a heavy whiff of his brother Lorgar.  His view of the warp as a more benign ocean of knowledge, led him to tie his legion to Tzeentch's banner long before Lorgar found the gods.  The Thousand Sons were the last legion to consciously turn against the Emperor (some of them never did), but were in fact the first to fall to chaos.  For much of their time on the Great Crusade, long before the Heresy, the stability of their gene seed was underpinned by a direct pact with a chaos god, and directly communing with daemons was a widespread practice in the legion.

[Arkangilos]

I still don't think that aside from Lorgar and Horus, any of the other Primarchs truly had a good reason for turning :-/

 

Nah, Lorgar and Horus had a horrible reason to turn. 

 

Fulgrim, Magnus, and Angron had good reasons to turn. Fulgrim because he was sort of possessed during part of it, and then hit a "point of no return" with the possession so gave up.

 

Magnus because he tried doing the right thing, but was attacked anyways, and forced into it. Well, you know what they say, "The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

 

Angron because the Emperor denied him the one thing he needed/wanted. Had the Emperor helped him rather than beamed him out, it would have been different. The Emperor totally could have, too. He could have bombarded the crap out of the enemy army.

[1000 Sons]

Magnus and the Thousand Sons were still loyal(ish?) on the Planet of Sorcerers.  In the audio drama Thief of Revelations, the Sons are wondering why Magnus hasn't been seen so Ahriman goes to see what's happening. Magnus takes Ahriman on a tour of the legion battles to calth, dark angels vs night lords, blood angels on the daemon world and explans to Ahriman that he has been played a fool up to now and his next decision must be the right one.  I think there was still a chance that Magnus would have tried to return to the Emperor or at least try and fight the traitors on his own to try and redeem his legion.

 

Of course this was all ruined by Russ.  If he had just brought Magnus and the Sons back to Terra the Emperor could have used the best psyker legion in the webway war.  The wolves only use in the Heresy was as a tool for Horus.

 

As for the rest Lorgar was a weak willed putts, Mortation was lied to by everyone around him and turned to nurgle to save his legion from death, Fulgrim was surrounded by sycophants and let his pride crush him, Angron had hardly a reason to live and became fueled by a need for revenge against the emperor for robbing him of his glorious death, Perterabo felt his genius was not being recognized and that the work of his legion was the gutter jobs and Charlie work that no one else wanted to do or gave him or his legion any kudos for, and finally Horus was just set on a path that could take him no were but to the chaos gods.  Everyone was working against him, and even the ones that thought they were doing the best for him were being used and became tools for Erebus and chaos. 

 

Off topic a bit, but were the Thousand Sons already rubric marines during the siege of Terra ?

[Brother Heinrich]

I will never understand why in the cosmic-:cuss the Emperor didn't just mind laser the motherfething High Riders. That was seriously one of the most dick moves the Emperor ever pulled. Any time I get mad at the traitor forces, Erebus, Horus, Fulgrim, etc. I just think about how the Emperor treated Angron...

 

:cuss that man and his Golden Throne.

[Plasmablasts]

In my view, all the Primarchs were potentially fallible. Even those who were too loyal to choose to rebel had weaknesses that could be manipulated. Russ is the obvious example, as discussed several times above: his flaw was unquestioning obedience (and history, particularly of the 20th century, furnishes ample evidence of the dangers of "just following orders").

 

Guilliman, on the other hand, appears to be (in my interpretation of "Unremembered Empire") just as loyal, but makes a pragmatic, well-reasoned decision (to found Imperium Secundus) that can be appear (both in- and out-universe) treasonous. I could imagine an alternative narrative in which, through the machinations of Chaos, the Emperor or his regents on Terra learn of Imperium Secundus and interpret it as an act of rebellion, catalysing events which lead to Guilliman being forced into secession and, ultimately, the embrace of Chaos.

 

If we accept that almost all Primarchs had some failing in their character that might have been used by Chaos, the question would then be "why wasn't it used?" We have seen some unsuccessful attempts (Ferrus Manus, Sanguinius, The Khan). However, could it have suited Chaos better not to turn all the legions? I raised it earlier, but I thought I'd add two thoughts.

 

One: The act of betrayal itself is portrayed as being a particularly potent "offering" to the Dark Gods. The Salamanders, RG and IH might have been left loyal for that purpose.

 

Two: The Acuity shown by the Cabal to Alpharius and Omegon depicts an overwhelming victory for Chaos as leading to its own self-destruction. Were that true, Chaos may have only turned half the legions to avoid that fate.

[Calas Typhon]

 

I still don't think that aside from Lorgar and Horus, any of the other Primarchs truly had a good reason for turning :-/

 

Nah, Lorgar and Horus had a horrible reason to turn. 

 

Fulgrim, Magnus, and Angron had good reasons to turn. Fulgrim because he was sort of possessed during part of it, and then hit a "point of no return" with the possession so gave up.

 

Magnus because he tried doing the right thing, but was attacked anyways, and forced into it. Well, you know what they say, "The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

 

Angron because the Emperor denied him the one thing he needed/wanted. Had the Emperor helped him rather than beamed him out, it would have been different. The Emperor totally could have, too. He could have bombarded the crap out of the enemy army.

 

 

Its not that Angron was denied a death, although that played a part big or small. Its that he wanted to be free, He went from slavery to another type of slavery and he hated the Emperor for it. He only sided with Horus because of the Emperor being a slavemaster and  a Tyrant, hell he did not give two hells for Horus and his plans.

 

By all accounts Angron died at Necrucia, and removed it from his mind until Lorgar decided to play on it.

[Ratboy1664]

I don't think Fulgrim turned because he was possessed (as he showed he had the power and ability to kick the daemon back out of himself), he turned because in his quest for perfection he started altering his Fathers genetic work. He knew the big E would be super mad at him, possibly enough to create a third deleted legion, and so every genetic change his Legion took was a step away from the Imperium of man.

 

Perfectionism is also a very selfish desire, and Fulgrim started choosing personal satisfaction over the greater good. To use a football analogy he spent so much time trying to become a better player that every time he played a game he would never pass the ball as he was only interested in improving his own game and not the result of the team. A bit like Cristiano Ronaldo. In fact the more I think about it the more Cristiano Ronaldo is Fulgrim re-born is obvious, he now even has his own aftershave with which to amaze your senses!

 

Anyway, the daemon possessing Fulgrim was not why he turned traitor, but a symptom of it.

[Karthak]

 

 

I still don't think that aside from Lorgar and Horus, any of the other Primarchs truly had a good reason for turning :-/

 

Nah, Lorgar and Horus had a horrible reason to turn. 

 

Fulgrim, Magnus, and Angron had good reasons to turn. Fulgrim because he was sort of possessed during part of it, and then hit a "point of no return" with the possession so gave up.

 

Magnus because he tried doing the right thing, but was attacked anyways, and forced into it. Well, you know what they say, "The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

 

Angron because the Emperor denied him the one thing he needed/wanted. Had the Emperor helped him rather than beamed him out, it would have been different. The Emperor totally could have, too. He could have bombarded the crap out of the enemy army.

 

 

Its not that Angron was denied a death, although that played a part big or small. Its that he wanted to be free, He went from slavery to another type of slavery and he hated the Emperor for it. He only sided with Horus because of the Emperor being a slavemaster and  a Tyrant, hell he did not give two hells for Horus and his plans.

 

By all accounts Angron died at Necrucia, and removed it from his mind until Lorgar decided to play on it.

 

Not just that he was denied death, or that he wanted to be free:

 

"And then. And then. Hnh. The Emperor. Hnnngh. The Emperor. He stole me, trapped me, banished me to the Conqueror’s dark belly. Teleported me up into orbit, though at the time, I knew nothing of such technology. I was alone, alone in the dark. And my brothers and sisters died here. They died without me. I swore. We all swore. We swore to stand and fight and die. Together. Together.’ Angron rocked back and forth, the blades lowering, his eyes unfocusing. ‘The Emperor. High-rider dog-filth. When Horus called, I gave my word. I gave my word, because I lived when I should have died. That’s no gift. He made me a traitor! He made me betray the only oath that mattered! I lived and my brothers and sisters died here, their bones left for the vermin, the wind, the snow."

- Betrayer

 

The Emperor took him from his family, left them to die. His kin died believing that he had abandoned them. Of all the Primarchs, I think Angron had the most legitimate reason for turning against the Emperor.

[fool's idol]

I don't think Fulgrim turned because he was possessed (as he showed he had the power and ability to kick the daemon back out of himself), he turned because in his quest for perfection he started altering his Fathers genetic work. He knew the big E would be super mad at him, possibly enough to create a third deleted legion, and so every genetic change his Legion took was a step away from the Imperium of man.

 

Perfectionism is also a very selfish desire, and Fulgrim started choosing personal satisfaction over the greater good. To use a football analogy he spent so much time trying to become a better player that every time he played a game he would never pass the ball as he was only interested in improving his own game and not the result of the team. A bit like Cristiano Ronaldo. In fact the more I think about it the more Cristiano Ronaldo is Fulgrim re-born is obvious, he now even has his own aftershave with which to amaze your senses!

 

Anyway, the daemon possessing Fulgrim was not why he turned traitor, but a symptom of it.

 

 

Cristiano Ronaldo (born 1985) is Fulgrim (born somewhere in the 30th Milennium) reborn.

 

Eeeeeeeeh, I don't think time works this way.

 

But Fulgrim, in his more depressed and weakened state was, clearly, slave to the demon, that he later regained enough forces to push it back is true, but the demon was in charge for, at least, a while.

 

And he probably could have saved himself and (the not irrevoably tainted/altered part of) his sons by saying Fabius was doing everything behind his back, which is actually more or less true.

[Ratboy1664]

There is no way he could pin this one on Fabius.

 

To miss something as serious as the genetic manipulation of his children would be such a command failure that he would have to be executed (as you can't really sack a Primarch) and to also send a message to the other Legions.

 

And he wasn't possessed by the Daemon when he gave Fabius permission to take his Legion on the first steps towards damnation. The question is WHY did Fulgrim turn traitor and simply saying he was possessed isn't the whole (or even most of the) answer.

[Ishagu]

I think the possession should have put him off. He saw, first hand, exactly what the warp entities truly are - manipulative, self serving, evil. After regaining his body he goes back on his merry way towards damnation.

Either it's poor story or he's just pitifully weak in terms of character.