Marshal Loss Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I always felt that Fulgrim regaining control of his body was one of the biggest mistakes they've made in writing the Heresy. Moving on from the end of 'Fulgrim', it seemed like a perfect end to his arc to me - broken by what he had done, the ultimate crime, he ends up losing literally everything to the daemon that had manipulated him into betraying everything he once stood for. Fulgrim and Ferrus both effectively dying on that battlefield would be poetic and full of symbolism. As Ishagu had said, I may have felt less strongly about it if they had handled the transition better, but it felt a little preposterous. One moment Lorgar mocks the daemon saying Fulgrim will be back, next minute bam, hey it's me Fulgrim guys - remember all of the regrets and trauma I went through prior to losing my body? Well that's all gone now, time to pursue snakehood! Others may disagree but that's just how I feel about it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4194792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratboy1664 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Agreed, but the question was WHY did he turn traitor, and it wasn't because he became possessed, he became traitor the instant he put himself and his legion before the Emperor and the Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4194819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 The Emperor was quite forgiving of his sons, I'm not sure anything he'd done leading up to the drop site massacre would have led to his execution. Think of the crap Angron was doing, to the full knowledge of the Emperor, and think how long Lorgar was spreading Religion for before he was made an example of. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4194824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fool's idol Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Or just think for how long Magnus managed to keep his merry literary club of wizardry going. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4194827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I still don't think that aside from Lorgar and Horus, any of the other Primarchs truly had a good reason for turning :-/ Nah, Lorgar and Horus had a horrible reason to turn. Fulgrim, Magnus, and Angron had good reasons to turn. Fulgrim because he was sort of possessed during part of it, and then hit a "point of no return" with the possession so gave up. Magnus because he tried doing the right thing, but was attacked anyways, and forced into it. Well, you know what they say, "The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions." Angron because the Emperor denied him the one thing he needed/wanted. Had the Emperor helped him rather than beamed him out, it would have been different. The Emperor totally could have, too. He could have bombarded the crap out of the enemy army. Its not that Angron was denied a death, although that played a part big or small. Its that he wanted to be free, He went from slavery to another type of slavery and he hated the Emperor for it. He only sided with Horus because of the Emperor being a slavemaster and a Tyrant, hell he did not give two hells for Horus and his plans. By all accounts Angron died at Necrucia, and removed it from his mind until Lorgar decided to play on it. Not just that he was denied death, or that he wanted to be free: "And then. And then. Hnh. The Emperor. Hnnngh. The Emperor. He stole me, trapped me, banished me to the Conqueror’s dark belly. Teleported me up into orbit, though at the time, I knew nothing of such technology. I was alone, alone in the dark. And my brothers and sisters died here. They died without me. I swore. We all swore. We swore to stand and fight and die. Together. Together.’ Angron rocked back and forth, the blades lowering, his eyes unfocusing. ‘The Emperor. High-rider dog-filth. When Horus called, I gave my word. I gave my word, because I lived when I should have died. That’s no gift. He made me a traitor! He made me betray the only oath that mattered! I lived and my brothers and sisters died here, their bones left for the vermin, the wind, the snow." - Betrayer The Emperor took him from his family, left them to die. His kin died believing that he had abandoned them. Of all the Primarchs, I think Angron had the most legitimate reason for turning against the Emperor. Ugh that is beautiful. But yeah, I think that had the Emperor fought with them rather than abducted them, he would have been ferociously loyal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4194832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Angron's story is legit and it makes me wonder why the Emperor never put any measures in place to placate his tendencies or such. Random, but was Angron turned into a prince willingly or by Lorgar just cuz? I know we've talked about him a bit but I'm super interested to see what pushes Mortarion over. His whole "we went in the warp and then nurgle attacked lol" isn't that great if you ask me and I know it's not specifically cannon anymore. He was never the Emperor lover Dorn was etc being forced into servitude by failing to kill his Xenos father, but he showed his loyalty in Martial ability and conquest. I'm just interested in what Horus offers him to make him turn as he pretty much ends up being everything he hated on his planet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4194877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Angron's story is legit and it makes me wonder why the Emperor never put any measures in place to placate his tendencies or such. Random, but was Angron turned into a prince willingly or by Lorgar just cuz? I know we've talked about him a bit but I'm super interested to see what pushes Mortarion over. His whole "we went in the warp and then nurgle attacked lol" isn't that great if you ask me and I know it's not specifically cannon anymore. He was never the Emperor lover Dorn was etc being forced into servitude by failing to kill his Xenos father, but he showed his loyalty in Martial ability and conquest. I'm just interested in what Horus offers him to make him turn as he pretty much ends up being everything he hated on his planet. Well even in old fluff, he had already turned before Nurgle got him in the Warp. Nurgle didn't get him until they were heading to Terra, so he had already participated in the Istvaan stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4194886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Fulgrim is actually a simple story, although the novel doesn't exactly do anything to show it. Basically, he is raised as a messiah. He gains leadership of his planet not by conquest, but by using his genetic memory instead improves the factories' machinery and very quietly and peacefully subjugates the entire global population. He further increases his own ego by reintroducing art and culture to Chemos. And then he gets put in charge of the Legion called "the Emperor's Children". Not only that, but once again he is "the savior". If it wasn't for him then the III Legion might have died out. And then you get the entire Crusade of Fulgrim preening his own feathers, stroking his own ego, etc etc feel free to insert metaphor or analogy of choice to indicate growing arrogance. And this isn't without cause, he is a supreme tactician and general after all with a virtually flawless campaign record. But then comes the day when he comes across a daemon. A daemon who continues this self-destructive arrogance in a manner similar to Icarus flying towards the sun. We even get Fulgrim getting burned and crashing down when he killed Ferrus and then realized what exactly he had done, when in the first time in his life he actually had a moment of morality. And then, he was thrown to the warp. Yet another first for the Mighty Savior of Chemos as Fulgrim realizes he was completely one hundred percent outplayed. He wasn't....... perfect. So he uses his imprisonment to catch up. He begins learning how to manipulate the warp until he is able to reclaim his body. But that isn't enough. To Fulgrim, perfection must be eternal. And as Fulgrim knows, daemons are eternal while Primarchs..... well he did kill Ferrus after all. So then we get Angel Exterminatus and Fulgrim's ascension. It might be "simplistic" but it does make sense. It is consistent and plausible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4194902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratboy1664 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I disagree Kol, because your argument implies that he never really consciously made any decision to defy his father. He did the second he authorised Fabius to cross alien and Astartes genes, clearly against the Emperor's wishes. In this regard he is very much like Lorgar and Magnus, however Magnus broke his fathers rules to try and save the Imperium, whereas Lorgar did it to destroy the lie that was the Imperial Truth and Fulgrim did it to take both himself and his Legion closer to perfection. Fulgrim, not the Daemon, made the decision to defy his father. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4194931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I disagree Kol, because your argument implies that he never really consciously made any decision to defy his father. He did the second he authorised Fabius to cross alien and Astartes genes, clearly against the Emperor's wishes. In this regard he is very much like Lorgar and Magnus, however Magnus broke his fathers rules to try and save the Imperium, whereas Lorgar did it to destroy the lie that was the Imperial Truth and Fulgrim did it to take both himself and his Legion closer to perfection. Fulgrim, not the Daemon, made the decision to defy his father. Defying your father is not the same as betraying your father. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4194935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fool's idol Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Yeah, Sanguinius himself was defying the Emperor by hiding The Flaw instead of telling him like a good boy would have done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4194948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Yeah, Sanguinius himself was defying the Emperor by hiding The Flaw instead of telling him like a good boy would have done. I feel that it wouldn't be too much of a problem though. "sorry dad, sometimes my Marines get unstable and get even better at purging the Xenos and heretics :(" Obviously mutation is mutation but for the good of the imperium it could be let slide. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4194965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fool's idol Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 More like "sorry dad, sometimes my kids become bloodthirsty maniacs obsessed with killing things and drinking blood" Granted, if Lemon Russ' dog-man team nor the XIX's ash blind psychos were censured I guess there would be no problems with that, but Sanguinius is actively hiding it, which is defying the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4194974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 True. And a good point. I mean though, the amount of things the AL must've been hiding from the Emperor... Ouch. I fully theorise that the Astartes were a means to an end for the emp though, as we're the Primarchs. If he ever completed the crusade and achieved galactic peace with the Imperial truth in supremecy, they would've been all but disbanded. A tool and tool alone. I also think in part this is why Sanguinius sacrificed himself. He knew his sacrifice would absolve his sons of a lot of the :cuss they will do in the coming millennia, maybe even seeing a future where he lived and his Legion was torn apart for its behaviour post heresy. Who knows? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4194975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I disagree Kol, because your argument implies that he never really consciously made any decision to defy his father. He did the second he authorised Fabius to cross alien and Astartes genes, clearly against the Emperor's wishes. In this regard he is very much like Lorgar and Magnus, however Magnus broke his fathers rules to try and save the Imperium, whereas Lorgar did it to destroy the lie that was the Imperial Truth and Fulgrim did it to take both himself and his Legion closer to perfection. Fulgrim, not the Daemon, made the decision to defy his father. Actually, it doesn't. What it does say that until he killed Ferrus Manus, he had never faced the question of morality, he had never considered that he had ever done anything wrong. His pride and arrogance were so great that he literally believed every choice he had made to be the right choice. Until he killed Ferrus Manus, his most beloved brother. Perhaps the only one that he ever truly loved. It was the first time he ever considered that he made the wrong choice and had to face the fact that he wasn't perfect. Then his soul got chucked into a warp prison and he decided that he needed to be "more" perfect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4195021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratboy1664 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Deciding to alter Astartes gene seed WAS a moral choice, it is just that he didn't regret it. Agreed that killing Ferrus Magnus was the first time he regretted his action but I disagree as to his realisation that he wasn't perfect, that happened way before which IS WHY he tried to improve the gene seed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4195075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluxdeluxe Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Genuinely think your all being naive, I think the emperor for the most part knew exactly what his sons various deficiencies were, even stoked and manipulated them in some respects. To think that he didn't know every one of them intimately is laughable. The guy can see into your soul and right through it. He has manipulated events in a very specific direction, towards a specific goal. The stories have hinted at it already, I think master of mankind may go someway to addressing some of these issues. Remember it's grimdark, what's darker than a father setting his sons to killing each other to fulfill a species ambition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4195163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Fulgrim, Magnus, and Angron had good reasons to turn. ... Angron because the Emperor denied him the one thing he needed/wanted. Had the Emperor helped him rather than beamed him out, it would have been different. The Emperor totally could have, too. He could have bombarded the crap out of the enemy army. I hear that sentiment a lot, but feel that Matthew Farrer's "After Desh'ea" sheds a lot of light on why the Emperor didn't help Angron out: “Didn’t say much to me, no he did not. Think I let him? Think I did?’ ... ‘Had his own brothers, didn’t he, his kin-guard. ... Pointing their little blades at me!’ Angron spun, leapt, hurtled at Khârn and slammed him backwards with an open palm. ‘They drew weapons on me! Me! They… they…’ ... ‘Killed one, though,’ spat Angron, ... ‘Couldn’t put my hands on that Emperor of yours. Ahh, his voice in my ears, worse than the Butcher’s Nails…’ ... ‘Took one apart though. One of those gold-wrapped bastards. No stomach for it, your Emperor, paper-skinned like you. Pushed me back, into that… place… the place he took me from Desh’ea…’ ....‘Teleport,’ said Khârn, understanding. ‘He teleported you. First to his own ship, and then to here.”Excerpt From: Nick Kyme, Lindsey Priestley, Dan Abnett, Matthew Farrer, Mike Lee, Graham McNeill, James Swallow, Anthony Reynolds & Gav Thorpe. “Tales of Heresy.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/7bCZy.l It's easy to assume the Emperor was a cold-hearted bastard in this instance. Instead of taking Angron's complaint at face value, though, let's take in the full context of the situation: 1. The Emperor arrived either right before Angron's final battle, or at some point during its progress but before his last stand. 2. The Butcher's Nails effectively make people into berserkers 3. The Butcher's Nails and psykers don't go well together 4. The Emperor of Mankind is the most powerful human psyker Now, there are a lot of theories out there as to what the Emperor has really been doing and why. Perhaps the Emperor has schemes that go beyond the conventional wisdom, and he intended for his sons to become what they are. Or, as alluded to in The Outcast Dead, he may very well be nigh-on omniscient but unable to affect a pre-ordained future (much like Paul Atreides in the Dune series). Given what (scant) evidence is available, though, I feel it's a bit rash to take Angron at face value and assume the worse of the Emperor. Angron is an unapologetic killer who has overseen the extinction of entire planetary populations while under the sway of the Butcher's Nails. It is at least probably and plausible (if not certain) that Angron's warriors had a reaction at least as volatile as he did. Rescuing them from the armies of Nuceria may simply not have been a viable option. Not that this would matter to Angron, who routinely kills people for the sin of giving him bad news. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4195320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I'd always thought of the Butcher's Nails as relic technology that's already tainted by Khornate influence. They are just too damn convenient. Secondly, I think the Emperor cared little for Angron once he discovered just how irrevocably damaged he was by the Butcher's Nails. As Betrayer details, one of the Mechanicum representatives assigned to the XII Legion had examined Angron's implants. The conclusion was sealed away under the Emperor's orders - that implants were killing Angron and that they could not be removed. Think of the "surprisingly free hand" that the Emperor gave Angron for a newly invested Primarch (as opposed to well-adjusted Vulcan, whom he'd kept by his side for a time before reuniting him with the XVIII Legion). Even Konrad Curze of all people underwent some tutoring under Fulgrim. I think the Emperor knew that Angron would most likely not even live to see the end of the Great Crusade, that the implants were killing him inch by inch, making him even more unstable as time went on. So the Emperor elected to get some use out of him and his sons before either Angron died or had maddened to a point where he had to be put down. Third, Angron himself suffers from a massive inferiority complex. He was the only Primarch to fail in conquering his own homeworld. He blamed other people for his failures (see the "none of you had it as badly as I did" speech he gave to Guilliman on Nuceria). This, coupled with rage and pain, made him what he was. When Lorgar arranged his ascension on Nuceria, it to save him from dying by the inch thanks to the nails. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4195349 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Oh, I completely agree that Angron was a tragedy from the outset. It would have been better to end his suffering early and absorb the World Eaters into the Ultramarines... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4195353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 If the Great Crusade had continued without a hitch, the XIIth would have been the third Legion expunged from the records, if only from going extinct due to the Nails. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4195373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Oh, I completely agree that Angron was a tragedy from the outset. It would have been better to end his suffering early and absorb the World Eaters into the Ultramarines... Cough *we dont want them* cough Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4195374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 If the Great Crusade had continued without a hitch, the XIIth would have been the third Legion expunged from the records, if only from going extinct due to the Nails. Betrayer indicates that the Nails were not lethal to Astartes. Removing them generally led to death (or crippling trauma), and their effects could be detrimental toward any effort to fight in a tactically sound manner... but their presence was not, in and of itself, lethal to the World Eaters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4195399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 If the Great Crusade had continued without a hitch, the XIIth would have been the third Legion expunged from the records, if only from going extinct due to the Nails. Cruze was on track for 3rd, and once the massacre of Olympia uncovered, Perturabo 4th. Angron would have been a distance 5th or 6th at best. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4195403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarine Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I suspect that there was little that could have been done to save Angron. Take the scenario in which the Emperor sent his men to save Angron and his men, I can see this leading to the following problems: Angron is still the only primarch to have failed to conquer his homeworld - worse, he THEN had to be rescued By arriving and wiping out the high riders with overwhelming force, is the Emperor showing he is any better than them? What do you do with all of the freed gladiators you have - knowing that most will not be able to become Astartes, even with the best of help? I wonder if Angron would have any reason to trust the Emperor after this, or reason to want to lead his legion. Unfortunately as a World Eater fan, I suspect the best case for Angron would have been to let him die surrounded by the bodies of his enemies - something which I am sure the Emperor would not allow to happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314539-why-did-each-primarch-turn-do-chaos-or-stay-loyal/page/7/#findComment-4195619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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