Why did each primarch turn do chaos or stay loyal

[Dantay VI]

Angrons Gladiators could have been modified and strengthened, like Luther, who was not a full Astartes, or Kor Phaeron, who was also not a full Astartes.

 

A precedent had already been set in some of the legions to "upgrade" those the Primarch felt was worthy without risking their deaths.

 

Angron was denied the chance to do this by the Emperor.

 

As can be seen Angron wants freedom, not slavery. How would Angron have behaved if his brothers had been saved? He would have relied on them for counsel and they would have advocated against being a part of the Imperium, being a part of the machine they had been fighting against.

 

By letting the gladiators die and presenting Angron to his legion, the Emperor, I believe< hoped that when the grief had died down and with the sages wisdom of the legion Angron would grieve, find his place, and realize that there is no such thing as true freedom.

 

What really happened was this:

 

http://www.wobblymodelsyndrome.com/comic-178.html

[01RTB01]

Where can I read this please?

 

Kind regards,

Nick

Never liked how they portrayed Mortarian's sudden about face on sorcery/the warp. I feel like he went from not even being able to look at Fulgrim's new form, to slaying some of his best warriors to summon a demon in the span of a page or two.

 

[Memento Of Prospero]

In The Vengeful Spirit

[Kol Saresk]

That one isn't really an about face. It isn't like he wished he could become a daemon. To him, Grulgor was no different from the abominations he used to create for his adoptive father and was more valuable as a weapon than the two Deathshroud. They can be replaced. A walking exterminatus, maybe but not likely.

 

He sees Fulgrim as a person, albeit a detestable one so the total corruption, the loss of control to the warp, is anathema to him when he has grown the desire to control the warp. But Grulgor is merely a tool in his eyes, a tool that has actually gained value by becoming even more deadly.

 

Not surprisingly, the littlest detail can make the biggest difference.

[Marshal Loss]

The short story Daemonology goes a long way to justifying his change in tact.

[Zebulon]

I was under the impression that from everything I had read, Jaghatai Khan was entirely loyal and a man of honour... Here I have seen various people saying he very nearly turned traitor. Could someone tell me the sources for that? Ta.

[Memento Of Prospero]

I was under the impression that from everything I had read, Jaghatai Khan was entirely loyal and a man of honour... Here I have seen various people saying he very nearly turned traitor. Could someone tell me the sources for that? Ta.

 

this comes from the fact that many characters in universe fear his freedom streak. It also stems from the fact that while stuck in Chondax, he receives several confused messages regarding the state of affairs. And if Russ had killed Magnus, he just might have.

[Relict]

Oh, I completely agree that Angron was a tragedy from the outset. It would have been better to end his suffering early and absorb the World Eaters into the Ultramarines...

 

Mad dogs didn't ask to be born... How pitiful their lives are shouldn't distract from the fact that they need to be put down. We all know that the Emperor doesn't shy from ruthlessly eradicating a failed experiment or an asset that have outlived its usefulness (the two missing Legions, the fate of the Thunder Warriors). 

 

As for merging the War Hounds into the Ultramarines... Can you imagine what the Codex Astartes would have read had Khârn had a hand in authoring it? 

 

Theoretical: The foe is in an entrenched position with pre-established kill zones and artillery support.

Practical: Charge straight into enemy fire. Apply chainaxe to face. Repeat if necessary. 

 

:P

 

If the Great Crusade had continued without a hitch, the XIIth would have been the third Legion expunged from the records, if only from going extinct due to the Nails.

 

Remember what Lorgar learned regarding what would have happened to him and the Word Bearers had the Emperor decided to purge them. He would have been executed by Russ and Curze. His heart would have been torn out and a great act of sorcery performed upon it to poison the gene-seed of every one of his sons, who then would be massacred by another Legion. Even though the World Eaters maintained good numbers despite the Nails and massive casualties (150,000 in strength at the outbreak of the Heresy), had it been them against the rest of the Imperium their only legacy would have been a third empty plinth before the Imperial Palace. 

 

 

If the Great Crusade had continued without a hitch, the XIIth would have been the third Legion expunged from the records, if only from going extinct due to the Nails.

Betrayer indicates that the Nails were not lethal to Astartes. Removing them generally led to death (or crippling trauma), and their effects could be detrimental toward any effort to fight in a tactically sound manner... but their presence was not, in and of itself, lethal to the World Eaters. 

 

 

True. The Legionaries' Nails were a much less severe copy of the original. They "merely" enhance the aggression of the subjects (by permitting them mental reprieve only in bloodshed), as opposed to preventing them from even resting. Angron's Nail symptoms read like those of a degenerative neurological disease - shortened attention span, facial/verbal tics, uncontrollable emotions (in this case, psychotic rage). 

 

I suspect that there was little that could have been done to save Angron.

 

Take the scenario in which the Emperor sent his men to save Angron and his men, I can see this leading to the following problems:

1. Angron is still the only primarch to have failed to conquer his homeworld - worse, he THEN had to be rescued
2. By arriving and wiping out the high riders with overwhelming force, is the Emperor showing he is any better than them?
3. What do you do with all of the freed gladiators you have - knowing that most will not be able to become Astartes, even with the best of help?

I wonder if Angron would have any reason to trust the Emperor after this, or reason to want to lead his legion. Unfortunately as a World Eater fan, I suspect the best case for Angron would have been to let him die surrounded by the bodies of his enemies - something which I am sure the Emperor would not allow to happen.

 

According to Extermination, the Emperor showed up as Corax was freeing Deliverance by taking the war to its oppressors. The Emperor met with Corax for a day and departed - specifically to allow Corax to finish business. The same goes for Mortarion - the Emperor giving him a chance to slay his necromancer "father" by himself, only intervening when it was clear that Mortarion could not do the job. In neither case did the Emperor simply teleport his son out and lock him up. The Emperor wanted his general to lead the XII Legion and was willing to force his will over Angron's. I think the Emperor recognized that however damaged he was, Angron was still of some use in the Great Crusade before (A) the Nails finally killed him or (B) the Nails pushed him over the edge and he must be put down. 

[Ishagu]

I'm sorry but there's no way anyone would think that Angron is worth the risk.

 

As soon as the Emperor learned of the butcher's nails being applied to the WE he should have had Angron killed. End of the day he was ultimately a lost cause, and that would have been the best course of action to salvage SOME of the Legion.

[Knight of the Raven]

It's possible the Emperor expected the War Hounds to rebel and the other primarchs and their legionaries to start asking questions and begin worrying about their survival in the long run if He killed Angron in front of his own sons.

[Ratboy1664]

Angron is worth the risk as he can be used as a deniable operative.

 

' The first three Worlds in your system were massacred to a man? We didn't order that, we told Angron to pacify the uprising. Oh and you're next by the way. Surrender? Sure we can talk about that, step into my office......'

[Memento Of Prospero]

Angron is worth the risk as he can be used as a deniable operative.

 

' The first three Worlds in your system were massacred to a man? We didn't order that, we told Angron to pacify the uprising. Oh and you're next by the way. Surrender? Sure we can talk about that, step into my office......'

In the setting, having a deniable operative is hardly necessary. Every system was given two choices. Bend or Break.

 

To be honest (and this is coming from a WE fan) the whole debacle with him and his rebellion was written poorly, simply put.

 

He is a space Spartacus that was saved instead of dying on his last stand.

[Ratboy1664]

In this setting having a deniable operative is hardly necessary

The Alpha Legion disagrees......

[Memento Of Prospero]

In this setting having a deniable operative is hardly necessary

The Alpha Legion disagrees......

Or do they?

This is way the alpha legion cannot be used in any argument ;)

[Zebulon]

this comes from the fact that many characters in universe fear his freedom streak. It also stems from the fact that while stuck in Chondax, he receives several confused messages regarding the state of affairs. And if Russ had killed Magnus, he just might have.

Thanks for the reply, Wolf Pack.

 

So basically, because he received mixed messages and wanted to be sure of the truth, that makes him "almost a traitor" ?!

 

I don't see a problem in itself with the freedom streak, can you be more specific?

 

As regards Russ and Magnus, that sounds like a case of the "what ifs" to me?

[TemujinZero]

 

this comes from the fact that many characters in universe fear his freedom streak. It also stems from the fact that while stuck in Chondax, he receives several confused messages regarding the state of affairs. And if Russ had killed Magnus, he just might have.

Thanks for the reply, Wolf Pack.

 

So basically, because he received mixed messages and wanted to be sure of the truth, that makes him "almost a traitor" ?!

 

I don't see a problem in itself with the freedom streak, can you be more specific?

 

As regards Russ and Magnus, that sounds like a case of the "what ifs" to me?

Not 'makes him a traitor', but 'almost actually made him a traitor', as in he was close to siding with Horus. We're not casting aspersions.

[Lord Blackwood]

Its funny because  it seems like Angron and Pert are dudes who honestly could have been insanely valuable Imperial Assets had they  just been treated differently by their old man.

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

this comes from the fact that many characters in universe fear his freedom streak. It also stems from the fact that while stuck in Chondax, he receives several confused messages regarding the state of affairs. And if Russ had killed Magnus, he just might have.

Thanks for the reply, Wolf Pack.

 

So basically, because he received mixed messages and wanted to be sure of the truth, that makes him "almost a traitor" ?!

 

I don't see a problem in itself with the freedom streak, can you be more specific?

 

As regards Russ and Magnus, that sounds like a case of the "what ifs" to me?

 

 

Over simplification here is a terrible thing. Had Horus's cause been a righteous one in accord with his values, he would have "turned traitor". But then again, some traitor primarchs would not have sided with Horus if that were the case. But it turned out to be pure madness, and he did not turn. A wise man never follows blindly, he will always listen to both sides of a story before making a decision.

 

There are very few primarchs with enough free will with a true sense of justice who would come to a decision like that. This is a great leadership quality in decision making.

[Zebulon]

Temujin- yes what you wrote is I think what I meant! I realise it isn't meant as a slur on Khan's reputation, but I drew different conclusions from his testing the truth of the messages he had received. Unless I am missing something perhaps, hence my questions.

 

Wolf pack, I get what you are saying but as you say, had Horus' cause been righteous surely most of the Primarchs would have taken opposite sides to how things "actually" occurred?

 

Ah but then you say that in fact, some of them would not have chosen so wisely. In a sense therefore to say Khan considered his options is to praise him above other, more impetuous or more single-minded Primarchs.

[Kol Saresk]

When the Khan found out about the Heresy, he had no idea what had been happening in the galaxy for the past year. He was fighting Orks and then the next thing he knows, he's getting communications that Horus is a Traitor, others that Horus is a victim, that Russ murdered Magnus, that Magnus attacked Russ, basically a metric crap ton(apparently that's 4,000 pounds of crap according to portapotties) that is all contradicting each other and not making sense.

 

What everyone thought was that with no clear intelligence at hand, the Khan would just seek out the Primarchs he was friendly with, which was Horus. Of course that would have led to him either believing Horus and turning traitor or getting ambushed and possibly killed.

 

Instead, the Khan left the galaxy to itself for a bit and went to Prospero. There he met a fragment of Magnus who told him the complete and undisclosed truth and then they were attacked by Mortarion and his Death Guard, which gave the Khan the reasoning he needed to stay loyal.

 

So what Wolf Pack is getting at is that when the Khan had no idea what to do and others that he would turn Traitor by running to defend his "friends", he instead chose to find out if his friends were in the right or in the wrong so that he could pick the "right" aide.

[Visitor13]

I'm sorry but there's no way anyone would think that Angron is worth the risk.

 

As soon as the Emperor learned of the butcher's nails being applied to the WE he should have had Angron killed. End of the day he was ultimately a lost cause, and that would have been the best course of action to salvage SOME of the Legion.

 

I see at least some people get it.

 

 

You could slaughter an entire planet, make an Olympus Mons out of the skulls and paint "Blood for the Blood God" with their blood in letters large enough to be seen from space - and Khorne would still be more interested in Angron.