helterskelter Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 To take this out of another thread and in into one of its own, the question I pose to the frater is: what if one more legion at Istvaan V was loyal? How would this have affected the outcome? Now no inflammatory baiting or anything this isn't a my daddy is better than yours thread, it's about what a legion would bring to the table by remaining loyal. Would Curzes EMP ability help? Would sown terror disrupt the traitor back line and would Lorgar now be shredded into noodles? Would an iron warrior siege line batter Horus' battle plan out of existence? Speculate my brothers ( but please, constructively :) ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 The Iron Warriors would be amusing tho I think them turning the guns on the other traitor legion would only lead to even more confusion @ n @ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Didn't that actually happen? There was a period in the battle where loyal troops from the traitors ranks turned on their own legion sowing confusion until they got snuffed out Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 I think in terms of making the biggest difference, that would definitely be the Iron Warriors. All that heavy firepower, fortifying the drop site to repel attack (or retreat by the loyalists as it turned out) and a large fleet in orbit, not to mention Perturabo. It's highly likely that the traitors would still have won but the cost would have been enormous, certainly high enough to mean a significant change in strategy of what eventually transpired. I suppose the argument could be made that if we take the implied fact about the Alpha Legion having a hand in the preparation and execution of the massacre that if they did indeed remain loyal they could have stopped it dead in it's tracks one way or the other. As for in open battle, I suppose the headhunters could have gone after the command cadres of the traitors although how effective they would have been is debatable. Whilst I love the Night Lords I don't think they'd have made a significant difference overall. I don't think it too hard to imagine that upon discovering that it was 7 Legions vs 4, they'd have bolted straight for the ships and gotten the hell out of there. Curze himself would likely have made a hell of a difference but, much as Corax, even he wouldn't be able to fight his way through a million Astartes, then through his 7 brothers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raktra Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Curze has an EMP ability? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190421 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted October 7, 2015 Author Share Posted October 7, 2015 Curze has an EMP ability? In his little audio thingy ( one of the early ones) basically shuts off all the lights in his general vicinity and wrecks some phoenix guard and templars Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraith776 Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Its in the short story by Graham McNeill called 'The Dark King' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Another interesting thing to consider is that if the Legion which remained loyal had a significant fleet contingent at Isstvan V, they may have been able to provide covering fire for the Xth Legion's 2nd wave, allowing the 70,000 or so following Iron Hands Legionaries to actually make planetfall and engage in the ground fighting, where their considerable armoured assets would actually be useful (as opposed to in void warfare). Again, having the IVth Legion's heavily armoured ships & ground fortifications would likely have been the ideal situation to maximise suriviors of such an attempt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Another interesting thing to consider is that if the Legion which remained loyal had a significant fleet contingent at Isstvan V, they may have been able to provide covering fire for the Xth Legion's 2nd wave, allowing the 70,000 or so following Iron Hands Legionaries to actually make planetfall and engage in the ground fighting, where their considerable armoured assets would actually be useful (as opposed to in void warfare). Again, having the IVth Legion's heavily armoured ships & ground fortifications would likely have been the ideal situation to maximise suriviors of such an attempt. that would also be pretty epic!! *sighs* and we never will read about it in a BL novel ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Hmm... While Kurze staying loyal probably means that Lorgar would never make it off Istvaan, I think I have to agree that the IV Legion staying loyal would have had the biggest impact. Imagine the best case scenario where the Iron Warriors beat the Iron Hands to Istvaan V. Before Ferrus can make a hasty drop assault, Perturabo just blows the entire planet into nucleotides (bc that's way more practical than assaulting an entire planet populated 100% by hostile forces) and solves 4/7ths of the heresy issue right there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crizza Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 The Night Lords would have made a major difference.In case you've forgotten, but little Konrad saved golden boy Lorgar... without him Corax would have gutted him, Vulkan would've most likely escaped or gone nuts on Isstvan 5... Just imagine him running amok and duking it out with Angron Gnah, Ninja'd ^^ Edit2: What would've happened if the Fists would've arrived in time? Some sort of evacuation under fire? But then again Pollux would've not been in command and we don't know the skills of his mentor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 If we are going for the Legion swapping sides that would have had the biggest impact in favor of the Loyalists, I'd have to go with the Sons of Horus. :p Honestly, any one Legion could have prevented the Shattered Legions by allowing for more survivors, but none would have turned the tide. A lot of damage would have been reflected back onto the Traitors if the Warmaster had assumed one too many Legion's loyalty to him. Any one of them would be interesting, and could have vastly different impacts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 To make the biggest difference it would have to be the iron warriors. It would have allowed the loyalists to fortify, which would have turned it into a siege, which would have meant that a 3/1 ratio would have been needed. (Or some serious firepower to increase the force of arms). The iron warriors would have had their own big guns. Any other legions wouldn't have helped that much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calvin the wraithlord Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Abit off point here, but why didn't they just destroy the planet?.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 ^ Omg, tell me about it right? Any practical primarch would have just wiped the planet out. Long story short, I believe that it was mainly bc Ferrus insisted on striking out and making planetfall so he could personally battle Fulgrim. Since Ferrus rushed ahead of everyone, including the rest of his legion, it wasn't possible to blow the planet up without taking him with it. Funny though, how if they had just wiped the planet with Ferrus on it, the loyalists still would have ended up much better off :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reyner Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Didn't they want to capture Horus or something? That would have been a big reason not to nuke the place. I agree with most other posters and say the IV Legion would have been pretty epic to stay loyal - it is possible they would have been utterly annihilated because they wouldn't back down but damn that would be a good read. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Didn't they want to capture Horus or something? That would have been a big reason not to nuke the place. I agree with most other posters and say the IV Legion would have been pretty epic to stay loyal - it is possible they would have been utterly annihilated because they wouldn't back down but damn that would be a good read. "and so, thanks to the heroic sacrifice of our brother Perturabo and his Legion, we managed to kill the traitor Lorgar and escaped from the surface after the treachery of the Night Lords, Word Bearers and Alpha Legion was revealed" A IW's last stand? that would be sooo awesome >.< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crizza Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 In Outcast Dead there was a line that in the prison, where the crusader host was kept, was a cell designed for Horus, so yes, he should've been dragged to Terra in chains.The problem with the IVth is, they were entrenched with the Word Bearers, Alpha Legion and Night Lords, so they would have to push them out first..In the end I guess the loyal Legions, even with the support of the Iron Warriors would have been destroyed or the heavy equipment of the IVth had to be abandoned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fool's idol Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Abit off point here, but why didn't they just destroy the planet?.... Well, I guess it takes some time to destroy it, and considerable firepower, and doing that when the fleet is in numerical inferiority and being attacked on all flanks sounds pretty difficult and suicidal. Not that deploying in the surface is any better. As for the legion that would have made the biggest difference I'm going to say the Word Bearers, if they had just stayed loyal they would have saved way more astartes lives than any of the other legions. Althought that may count as cheating. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 I can't remember the exact quote but it's definitely there that they wanted Horus on his knees before the Golden Throne to pronounce judgement on him. Notwithstanding Manus' anger with wanting to kill Fulgrim personally. Besides I think even if annihilating the planet was seriously considered (hard to imagine it not) there were still 7 Primarchs, can't discount their warrior pride - only really Perturabo and Alpharius would reasonably settle for just blowing the thing up and letting that being an end to it (if they weren't traitors of course) - the rest would want to see Horus/Angron/Fulgrim/Mortarion defeated in person. Would have been interesting if others like the Lion had been there, he'd have ordered a surface assault no matter what, just for the opportunity to have it said that he was the one to make Horus yield Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Abit off point here, but why didn't they just destroy the planet?.... Well, I guess it takes some time to destroy it, and considerable firepower, and doing that when the fleet is in numerical inferiority and being attacked on all flanks sounds pretty difficult and suicidal. Not that deploying in the surface is any better. As for the legion that would have made the biggest difference I'm going to say the Word Bearers, if they had just stayed loyal they would have saved way more astartes lives than any of the other legions. Althought that may count as cheating. The fleets of the four traitor Legions weren't at Istvaan V until the surface battle was several hours old. And at any rate, there's no chance that the 4 would have been able to defeat 7 purely by numbers of ships alone, not even factoring the large number of heavy class ships the Iron Warriors fielded. I'm slightly disappointed nothing has been shown of the void battle, if only to show 11 of the 20 or so Gloriana battleships going at it: As for the Word Bearers, if they had stayed loyal there wouldn't have even been an Istvaan III let along Istvaan V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 As for the Word Bearers, if they had stayed loyal there wouldn't have even been an Istvaan III let along Istvaan V not sure about that - aslong as Erebus and/or Kor Phaeron would have been traitors (which they were more or less since ever?) Horus would have fallen @ Davin^^ you don't need the whole Legion for that ^.^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 As for the Word Bearers, if they had stayed loyal there wouldn't have even been an Istvaan III let along Istvaan V not sure about that - aslong as Erebus and/or Kor Phaeron would have been traitors (which they were more or less since ever?) Horus would have fallen @ Davin^^ you don't need the whole Legion for that ^.^ Maybe, but if Lorgar wasn't such a whiny bitch, he'd have gutted both of them when they brought up the whole "Primordial Truth" worship angle after Khur Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 I can't remember the exact quote but it's definitely there that they wanted Horus on his knees before the Golden Throne to pronounce judgement on him. Notwithstanding Manus' anger with wanting to kill Fulgrim personally. Besides I think even if annihilating the planet was seriously considered (hard to imagine it not) there were still 7 Primarchs, can't discount their warrior pride - only really Perturabo and Alpharius would reasonably settle for just blowing the thing up and letting that being an end to it (if they weren't traitors of course) - the rest would want to see Horus/Angron/Fulgrim/Mortarion defeated in person. Would have been interesting if others like the Lion had been there, he'd have ordered a surface assault no matter what, just for the opportunity to have it said that he was the one to make Horus yield Heh and that's why the lesser legions were wiped out. Had they sent the Lion and his furry friends from the VIth, it would've been a different story. Hell, I'd love that just to see the look on Leman's face after the Lion guts Horus....ahh the sweet sweet tears. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 At the time there was a rivalry, but as mentioned in the codexes, by the end of the heresy/scouring Russ and Jonson had almost become friends and it was thought that part of Russ journey into the eye was to find the Lion. Unless Russ swore the oath to end Horus, I think he would have been smart enough to congratulate Jonson on a fine victory and shared mjod in celebration at ending the heresy All I can say is meh... The Wolves weren't there with the Lion, so who knows?? Or as Sheldon Cooper so succinctly puts it "If, ifs and buts wee coconuts..." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314598-what-if-istvaan-v-edition/#findComment-4190684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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