What if..? Istvaan V edition

[Atia]

At the time there was a rivalry, but as mentioned in the codexes, by the end of the heresy/scouring Russ and Jonson had almost become friends and it was thought that part of Russ journey into the eye was to find the Lion.

Unless Russ swore the oath to end Horus, I think he would have been smart enough to congratulate Jonson on a fine victory and shared mjod in celebration at ending the heresy

All I can say is meh... The Wolves weren't there with the Lion, so who knows??

Or as Sheldon Cooper so succinctly puts it "If, ifs and buts wee coconuts..."

hah Dark Angels ... they are worse than AL now ... loyal Lutheran Calibanites, traitor Lutheran Calibanites, "loyal" Johnson DA's, beheaded chaplains ... *sighs*

[Flint13]

 

 

 

 

As for the Word Bearers, if they had stayed loyal there wouldn't have even been an Istvaan III let along Istvaan V :ph34r:

not sure about that - aslong as Erebus and/or Kor Phaeron would have been traitors (which they were more or less since ever?) Horus would have fallen @ Davin^^

 

you don't need the whole Legion for that ^.^

Maybe, but if Lorgar wasn't such a whiny bitch, he'd have gutted both of them when they brought up the whole "Primordial Truth" worship angle after Khur

To be fair, he did try to jettison them in the most passive-aggressive roommate way possible with the whole Calth deal.

 

So far as we know, Kor Phaeron is still just floating around in a nebula somewhere nursing a sucking chest wound.

[Dantay VI]

I do not think the DA's were any better or worse than the AL. All legions were strung out prior to the heresy serving in different expeditionary fleets and there were conflicting loyalties across the board, some just more famous than others.

 

The traitor legions had to purge their ranks and it cost them, The Scars had a mini civil-war till the Khan stepped in, The T-sons had doubters in their ranks about Magnus' path but ultimately followed him. There is the EB sniper who is not actually loyal to Lorgar etc....

 

It was a messy time and choosing the right side often depended upon who brought you the message of the heresy first... It was complicated for most.

[Atia]

I do not think the DA's were any better or worse than the AL. All legions were strung out prior to the heresy serving in different expeditionary fleets and there were conflicting loyalties across the board, some just more famous than others.

 

The traitor legions had to purge their ranks and it cost them, The Scars had a mini civil-war till the Khan stepped in, The T-sons had doubters in their ranks about Magnus' path but ultimately followed him. There is the EB sniper who is not actually loyal to Lorgar etc....

 

It was a messy time and choosing the right side often depended upon who brought you the message of the heresy first... It was complicated for most.

no, i meant they are more confusing for the reader than AL :P atleast we knew from the start the AL is sneeky and confusing xD

[Dantay VI]

I guess in some ways it is, because we know all the factions and we know what is going on (outside looking in).

From in universe I doubt there would be the same distinctions, it is either loyal to Horus or the Emperor, whether they were Lutherite is irrelevant to Russ and the Imperium at large. As everyone considers Luther to still be loyal to the true throne, so Lutherite or Leonine does not matter yet.

The only people it will matter to will be the Heresy

Anyways talk of the Wolf & the Lion is mis-placed here as neither legion was involved at Istvaan 5. I think it would have taken at least 2 of the traitor legions to turn before bringing the rest down, had one turned it would be a bloody affair but ultimately a defeat for the loyalists.

The missing fleet was by design to draw the loyalists into an ambush, so had the legions prepped for bombardment they would have been pounced upon with their guns in the wrong direction.

[Balthamal]

As for the Word Bearers, if they had stayed loyal there wouldn't have even been an Istvaan III let along Istvaan V

not sure about that - aslong as Erebus and/or Kor Phaeron would have been traitors (which they were more or less since ever?) Horus would have fallen @ Davin^^

you don't need the whole Legion for that ^.^

Maybe, but if Lorgar wasn't such a whiny bitch, he'd have gutted both of them when they brought up the whole "Primordial Truth" worship angle after Khur

To be fair, he did try to jettison them in the most passive-aggressive roommate way possible with the whole Calth deal.

So far as we know, Kor Phaeron is still just floating around in a nebula somewhere nursing a sucking chest wound.

But if he'd done it 50 years before everything went to :cuss....

Then again we wouldn't have gotten to see Kor Pharon get donkey punched or Erebus lose face with the Warmaster.

But Argel Tal....sniff

[v6v77]

Im going to throw the XXth legions hat into this ring.

 

It is mentioned somewhere that Alpharius may have been behind the Ist5 event. Something about the plan being very ALesque in nature.

 

Now imagine the plan subtly different enough to make hugh differences. Supply shortages, equipement failures, covert warnings, falling back on purpose to allow loyalists to get into posistions for killing blows on other units. Fake AL warships as seen in scars to make the traitors look strong but actually crumble in the first possible combat.

 

Then again i will agree. IW would have turned that place into a slaghter house. Hands down nasty.

[Crizza]

The XXth is a confusing bunch... in Tempest it is stated that they had more ships and manpower than expected.
The twenty Glorianas are strange as well. I think Tempest states that the WBs had more than one and wanted that of the Ultramarines... Have to look it up though.

[helterskelter]

I agree that IW would wreck some serious face, and that AL would be tricksy as per, but I still think NL could do a decent equivalent.

Curze literally bringing the night down on the traitor reinforcements, I'm specifically thinking they'd go straight for the IW as they appear to be more entrenched and would see it as fish in a barrel. But that's what Curze is up to.

I think as well as this Sevatar and the atramentar would go commit justice vs. Kaesoron and be enough of a distraction that manus would keep his head. The entire 1st company teleporting into that fight would have anyone going "aww nuts..."

And the only way the WB could prove loyal is beheading kor and erebus. Should rewrite some more 40k law and have at least one of them horrifically eviscerated to death.

[N Prime]

Is this presuming loyalist legion whilst successfully feigning traitor?

Any traitor Legion turning that way could cripple Horus' rebellion in its infancy.

 

The Dropsite Massacres were a brutal killing field, even with the advantage of surprise and fortified entrenchments on the side of the Traitors. It suddenly their supposed allies turned on them, an inversion of the canon scenario occurs and in favor of the Loyalists.

 

 One key thing that springs to mind in these scenarios is this: If there is a loyalist Legion feigning betrayal, then the advantage of both surprise and fortification may be negated. A warning to the Loyalists about their second wave being traitors or destabilizing the second waves entrapment disrupts much of the slaughter by allowing an avenue out. If already inside the gates of Horus fortifications (Death Guard, Emp children, World Eaters) that likely negates the fortifications. Shields are down, gates are open, and the enemy are within.

 

Now the many hows and whys of it occurring does not presume victory for the Loyalist but it nearly ensures defeat or a pyric victory for the Traitors. 

 

-Emperors Children: Since they formed much of the front lines for the massacre, their betrayal is a coin toss of effectiveness. Rather than killing Ferrus, they join up, likely with a feigned rout, and suddenly there is a spear aimed directly at Horus throat. This either means A) Two Primarchs and Legions are gutted and surround by Traitors as per Canon Iron Hand's Fate. The others don't believe it or still think that the odds are bad and its an ambush so getting the dodge outta heck is the right call. B  )  The sudden rush of the two Legions where they should not be allows them to get under the guard of the Traitors, causing mass havoc, possibly killing Horus, and ending any chance of enacting large scale revolt. Supposing they got in an held the gates, suddenly instead of an ambush you have a siege. And with Horus dead, the ludicrously fragile bonds holding the Traitors together likely snaps and frays. Certainly there is no more guiding force so each Legion will hare off and do what they will.

 

-Death Guard: Similar to the Emp Children Scenario. Likely  more insidious. I can see Mort marching from the hidden tunnels and smashing into the flanks of the Traitors, likely muttering "Something something tyranny and witches". Meanwhile, the nigh-exterminatus explosives goes off INSIDE the void shield generators, fortifications, and ammo supplies. Ouch. Grinding ones way out against the Traitors ensues. Massive bloodshed.

 

-World Eaters. Ummm yeah. Charge. Fight. Struggle. Somewhere between Death Guard scenario and Emp Child scenario. Minus bomb.

 

-Sons of Horus: Errr. Yeah well. That kinda....ruins the whole day now for the Traitors, doesn't it? Funny enough, if the LEGION turned by Horus did not, it could have huge ramifications for the Heresy but not for the Massacre. If Horus gets out, killing many of his Children and proclaims himself Traitor Boss with no Legion, he just goes all paranoid and hyper political, playing all Traitor Legions off one another in speed-chess.

 

Iron Warriors - Least likely to directly slay traitors, most likely to enact the intial plan of fortified dropsites and allow loyalists a corridor to retreat. Issue being if any other traitors are there with them. Hard to hold a defensive area or fire guns with Alpharius or Curze sons trying to shank you. I do not believe they would sway the outcome of the Massacre as a whole because while the do have defensive points those are going to be overrun, infiltrated, or just plain melted by the traitor forces. Any stationary targets that aren't Horus's dug in defenses are simply not strong to hold out. Nor are they in a position , neither with proximity or opportunity, to slay a Primarch. Their greatest contribution is, surprisingly for Perturabo's Legion, in saving Loyalist lives rather than slaying traitors. Certainly, they will kill many more Traitors before going down but more telling they give the Loyalist a corridor out, particularly if their space borne elements blow open a way out for escaping ships.

 

Word Bearers - Well. Their sheer numbers would cause such a bloody mess that certainly more of Raven Guard and Salamanders could get out. Iron Hands still dead most likely. Awarded "Most messed up-ing capable" because no one would expect Lorgar's Inquisition!

 

Alpha Legion - Like Emp Children, coin toss. Either has key players in camps to disrupt the plans (shipboard malfunctions, sabotage of munitions, defenses underminded, etc) or its just a thumbtack to a giant. Allows for many tiny victories and more Loyalist getting off planet.

 

Night Lords - I argue the least likely difference save one very dead Lorgar. They are one Legion, largely self interested and mercurial, they would cause havoc on targets of opportunity and then fly off when the going got too deadly.

 

The Massacre still favors the Traitors numerically speaking. There is also no guarantee the Loyalist will believe the refore-traitors and treat them as anything other than more targets. Yet if we have a snake the breast of Horus, the big trap suddenly is turned in the other direction. The Massacre worked so well because the Loyalists did not see it coming. Remove that and it becomes a bit of free game. Furthermore, the Traitors have no contingencies in place for a betrayal in their own ranks. They may turn on one another in a paranoid frenzy. The Iron Warriors had no compunctions shelling their allies (Word Bearers mainly, if I recall) in the canon-Massacre. The Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and World Eaters may also react to double-traitors.

World Eaters begin attacking anything and everything that isn't them as they have low control to begin with and an exceptionally low opinion of any outside their Legion.

Alpha Legion would probably bugger out and try to figure out how he was outplayed at his own intrigue game

Night Lords also leaving after stabbing what and who they can, not being known for their valiant last stands.

The point is that the Traitors are not a cohesively bound force. Horus is holding them together by playing on vendettas, promises, and his own (admittedly exceptional) charisma. A monkey wrench this early on cause disruption in their ranks.

[xxunphasedxx]

I agree the most devastating traitor legion that could turn loyalist would be the Emperors Children.

 

Dead center in the middle of the traitor lines and directly in front of the Sons of Horus lines. If Ferrus was to reach a Fulgrim who had changed sides, I would have a hard time believing Ferrus wouldn't just beat the snot outta him anyway for being a idiot. But if Ferrus was to get a distress call from his closest friend who was making a push for THE traitor, I also have a hard time believing Ferrus wouldn't give him a hand making a push for the Warmaster. Although Horus is the strongest primarch I don't think he would be able to take two of the most skilled primarchs (fighting in unison actually would be the perfect pair), that is of course if they could make it there or Horus didn't run away.

 

It should be noted that some of the traitor primarchs were still on the fence about the rebellion and some were just bat $#!@ crazy, the chaos that would ensue from the center lines could crack the traitor lines wide open.

 

Also on a separate note after the heresy without the traitorous act of Fulgrim, Guilliman would still be around (unless someone else were to have killed him.).

[Atia]

Well, for the EC to stay loyal we would need to change their Laer campaign - way before Istvaan :/ 

 

I can see Mortarion turning again, but not daemon Fulgrim and Kakaphonii^^

[Crizza]

What bugged me the most... where were the traitor fleets? The Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Salamanders were able to deploy their troops unmolested. Sure, once their troops were dropped, they ran into a torrent of AA-fire, but the traitor fleets( Sons of Horus, Death Guard, EC and World Eaters) were not present initially...
Did they hide somewhere in the system?

[Phalanx Warder]

Though there can be no doubt of the doggedness that a loyalist IVth legion would have showed on the slaughter fields of Istvasn V. The XXth would have made the biggest impact prior to landfall, in fact the AL would have served the loyalist cause better by not committing to the land battle and do what they do best prior the other 2 legions making planet fall.

 

Though they would not have destroyed 2 whole legions in this manner they could certainly make them non contenders in the bigger picture. I can see them (now, in my mind and on my zone mortalis board) sabotaging drop ships, thunderhawks, storm birds. altering drop pod coordinates sending them off into the void to die slow and painful eaths worthy of traitors. disabling proximity warning systems sending void craft into one another, tricking the machine spirits in to mistaking drop pod formations as hostile targets.......... you get the point. Prior to landing AL are king, post landing IW would have the most effect

[Balthamal]

What bugged me the most... where were the traitor fleets? The Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Salamanders were able to deploy their troops unmolested. Sure, once their troops were dropped, they ran into a torrent of AA-fire, but the traitor fleets( Sons of Horus, Death Guard, EC and World Eaters) were not present initially...

Did they hide somewhere in the system?

 

They kept them an hour or two away so that once the loyalists were committed in strength there was no way to abort the whole plan. Worked like a dream

[Grimdarkness]

I'd go with the VIIIth with the cadre of assualt troops the Night lords could bring to the field. With them and the Raven Guard providing mobile shock corps any build up of troops on the traitor side could quickly be located dispersed and the loyal marines fall back regroup and hit the next buildup keeping the traitors confused and leaderless at squad chapter company level's. All well fighting a withdrawl back to the fleets or to the mountains. Heck cruze presentient ability could have come in handy as well.

 

There my 2 cents.  

[Kriegriss]

I feel like any of the traitor legions turning loyal would have had the same effect

 

"Collect call from the Istvan sector do you accept the charges"

 

Malcador hits 1

 

"Hey Mal it's Perturabo/Kurze/Lorgar/Alpharious is dad around ... no ok man can you leave a message ... thanks yeah um so I kinda found out that there are more traitor legions then we thought so you may wanna hold off on the punitive thing till we sort it out... Yeah... hmm? OK so you'll tell Dorn thanks Mal I see why dad likes you so much see you later.

 

the Only problem I can forsee is if it's Alpharious Malcador would probly be like "It's Alpharious eh? .. that's what all you little Punks say now quit calling here im busy and don't have time for youre silly cloak and dagger prank calls"