Tiger9gamer Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 One of the opportunities that the series hasn't capitalised on so far has been the portrayal of the Orks, in my opinion. There's been quite a lot of 'telling' and not a lot of 'showing' of how their intelligence, technology, and brute strength makes these Orks more of a threat than the typical breed. Hopefully they don't leave it too late in the series to put them centre stage and give them their due. To be honest, whilst the series was initially quite promising, the constant 'Neutral Stupid' approach by the Imperium is wearing thin. "Hhmmm... Ullanor seems surprisingly poorly defended... Just like that attack moon..." "Charge it with chainswords then!" Blame the Templars! they are kinda stupid in the last book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4445482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 If the Imperium wasn't stupid, half the galaxy would be purged again Like the Tau. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4445495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
veterannoob Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 The Emperor didn't throw away the Legions himself. It has to be something He did to make it relevant to what The Beast says. Yes, what exactly did the Beast mean here? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4445508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Question is: How does the Beast know about it? I'll give it a try: webway? Psykers? Thunder warriors? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4445537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 They do seem to be constantly on the back foot tactically. It's no wonder the Orks are having so much success! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4446275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Question is: How does the Beast know about it? I'll give it a try: webway? Psykers? Thunder warriors? Perhaps the Beast was the spiritual leader of the Orks on Ullanor when the big bad was around. When The Emperor defeated him all of that "Orky power" transferred to him and bloated him out with the "green waaaa" Give it a thousand years or so and voila. New bad boy in town. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4446280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I would like to think he was the last living Ork Boy on ullanor, witnessing the Legion's triumphs first hand and vowing revenge, and from him the ork population grows and grows until it becomes the focal point of the Ork's new evolution. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4446438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I enjoyed Vulkan's musings on each Chapter page, especially chapter 22 'Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.' Sounds familiar? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4446447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
veterannoob Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I enjoyed Vulkan's musings on each Chapter page, especially chapter 22 'Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.' Sounds familiar? Yeah, that one jumped out at me immediately on the audio. :) Loved it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4446622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Antipodes Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 The biggest handicap that the Imperial forces have faced in this series is their own ingrained belief in how Orks act and fight. They just don't get that these are not the 'standard' Orks they have faced for the last millennium or two and need to stop reacting like they are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4446752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Series should stop repeating itself and give us something new for starters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4448496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Series should stop repeating itself and give us something new for starters. You should stop being a negative nancy and maybe lay off it for starters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4448626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Series should stop repeating itself and give us something new for starters. You should stop being a negative nancy and maybe lay off it for starters. Doing what he does best .... Does Vulkan have some of his artifacts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4448644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 I'm not sure his artefacts will help. Seeing as he's pretty much... ...dead ... again Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4448687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 I'm still sort of amazed at the lacklustre Imperial Response. 10k Astartes and 90k Guard? I mean...in proper 40k they throw around millions of mortals as a matter of course. I guess there are much fewer Chapters then I'm 40k with the whole natural distrust of Astartes in the high courts. Still....one company apiece from the first founders? Seems anemic. No mention of the tenth, fifth or nineteenth either. I think when the Beast mentions "throwing away your greatest weapon" he refers to the Legions. Only they had the power to push the galaxy back and win. Compare the 10,000 gathered to retake Ullanor to .. at least 200 to 300k Astartes at the Siege. The Imperium has thrown away it's best weapon. There was a reason the Emperor created them and the new Imperium is too afraid and weak to continue the Emperors dream. Black Library authors not thinking troop strengths through isn't exactly new. Eh, it can make sense in a way - the IoM of the 32nd millennium is vastly different than it's 40k or even 30k counterpart. I mean, remember that scene of the Adept on Terra complaining that the Ullanor attack was ... illegal?? LMAO what? The dude's really concerned about the legality of a war? Speaks volumes to what that Imperium thinks of applied forces and war on a massive scale vs what the later and earlier incarnations of it believe(d). That and the one thing the series hasn't done a great job (it's been mentioned a lot but we haven't really seen it) is that there is no front to this war. The war is everywhere, in every major system and segmentum. Where do they consolidate their forces in an empire that's got swathes, if not the majority of it, militarily decentralized? I mean, who's at Segmentum Command? Who's got the authority to launch attacks and requisition troops? It took Koorland literally launching a coup to get the Imperium to do anything meaningful at all. Truly, TBA IoM is a bunch of politically driven incompetent lazy bums who couldn't defend their own homes from an infestation of cockroaches, let alone fight on a massive scale like the Beast's attacks have required. edit I should specify that Koorland got Terra do to something...we know that forces are fighting the Orks on multiple fronts but I don't think any specific figures have been pointed out or singled as leading the efforts in specific regions of space. The way it seemed to me (just my opinion) is that responses were fragmented and largely spearheaded by Astartes/whatever Naval forces could be scrounged up rather than any truly organized war efforts in the theatres that the Orks opened elsewhere Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4448829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xisor Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 I think a few of you have hit on my only real complaint about 'the Beast Must Die' (otherwise, the pace and scale were brilliant, the connectedness of the Imperium a pleasure to behold - lots of stuff done very well, and for a lot of good old stuff and creative new [err, old & forgotten!] Ork stuff). That is: a lot of the tactics and outwitting done by the Orks just wasn't very impressive. It's a problem with *showing* their genius. It's difficult if you're not a strategic visionary genius yourself. (Think Murder Mystery books. Telling the story is something any old author could do. Coming up with a compelling logical puzzle to be solved through the story is a quite different skill.) In principle, the various traps and win-some/lose-some back-and-forth is done well by Gav - and written to be very pacy and enjoyable. But the 'trap' on Ullanor itself shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone. And is crude by the standards of these 'new' Orks. Why? Because it's pretty much the same trick they pulled against the Proletarian Crusade. Mega obvious. If they can move scrap mountains, they can mechanise tracts of land. Did they even mention, outright or implied, that it was very obviously a terrible trap of monstrous proportions? Anyway, that's the only real issue. And is only mildly dented my enjoyment. --- There is another little detail that's bugged me a bit. Vulkan mentions having faith quite frequently, and espouses the power of symbolism. My issue is: I'm not convinced. And I don't think the other Chapter Masters, Magi Dominus or Generals and Admirals would be either. Why not even just try virus bombing the place first? A preliminary total bombardment of what can be flattened? Cyclonic torpedoes and have an apocalyptic fight in the aftermath? I don't recall it ever being discussed or alluded to. Seemed odd. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4449627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabadin Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Why not even just try virus bombing the place first? A preliminary total bombardment of what can be flattened? Cyclonic torpedoes and have an apocalyptic fight in the aftermath? I don't recall it ever being discussed or alluded to. Seemed odd. Was possibly meant to highlight the difference to that era's IoM vs the current "Exterminatus First!,ask questions later" IoM Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4449856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were they born with a heart full of neutrality? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4449882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 I think a few of you have hit on my only real complaint about 'the Beast Must Die' (otherwise, the pace and scale were brilliant, the connectedness of the Imperium a pleasure to behold - lots of stuff done very well, and for a lot of good old stuff and creative new [err, old & forgotten!] Ork stuff). That is: a lot of the tactics and outwitting done by the Orks just wasn't very impressive. It's a problem with *showing* their genius. It's difficult if you're not a strategic visionary genius yourself. (Think Murder Mystery books. Telling the story is something any old author could do. Coming up with a compelling logical puzzle to be solved through the story is a quite different skill.) In principle, the various traps and win-some/lose-some back-and-forth is done well by Gav - and written to be very pacy and enjoyable. But the 'trap' on Ullanor itself shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone. And is crude by the standards of these 'new' Orks. Why? Because it's pretty much the same trick they pulled against the Proletarian Crusade. Mega obvious. If they can move scrap mountains, they can mechanise tracts of land. Did they even mention, outright or implied, that it was very obviously a terrible trap of monstrous proportions? Anyway, that's the only real issue. And is only mildly dented my enjoyment. --- There is another little detail that's bugged me a bit. Vulkan mentions having faith quite frequently, and espouses the power of symbolism. My issue is: I'm not convinced. And I don't think the other Chapter Masters, Magi Dominus or Generals and Admirals would be either. Why not even just try virus bombing the place first? A preliminary total bombardment of what can be flattened? Cyclonic torpedoes and have an apocalyptic fight in the aftermath? I don't recall it ever being discussed or alluded to. Seemed odd. they mentioned that there were shields everywhere I think? It is odd though. and I agree about the planet thing. It kinda sucked that they fell for it again. Isn't there a probe or something they can send to sound the planet and make sure it's not hollow? The mechanicus could have done something like that I bet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4450148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 It's not considered to be heroic to just bomb a planet from orbit. Although considering it was an Ork homeworld I'd rather have done that and saved lives. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4450266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Antipodes Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Moorland was hanging back as he suspected some sort of trap, however the Black Templars jumping the gun forced his hand. It would have also prevented any thoughts of Exterminatus since it would have wiped out the BTs as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4451507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xisor Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Brother, that'd have been a hell of a twist. "Lord Commander, we can't fire, it's the Black Templars...!" "They had their orders. They disobeyed. Fire." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4451844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Brother, that'd have been a hell of a twist. "Lord Commander, we can't fire, it's the Black Templars...!" "They had their orders. They disobeyed. Fire." "we can't! The entire chapter is down there! The plot armor is TOO STRONG!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4452705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the Raven Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Now I'm picturing Admiral Ackbar yelling "We can't destroy plot armor of that magnitude!" His "It's a trap!" sounds fitting too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4453106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant of Dante Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Brother, that'd have been a hell of a twist. "Lord Commander, we can't fire, it's the Black Templars...!" "They had their orders. They disobeyed. Fire." "we can't! The entire chapter is down there! The plot armor is TOO STRONG!" Tries to press big red button, finger misses. Freak electrical surge knocks the gunnery officer unconscious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/29/#findComment-4453138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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