Arkangilos Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 It's not unbelievable. The death watch allows an inquisitor to have a small force with several space marines of various specialities report directly to him, and not to their chapters. it makes sense when you think of them as Ordo Xeno's Hitmen. They are loyal only to the inquisitor handlers rather than a chapter master, and as such they deserve a special place in hell the imperium. I don't really see what prevents an inquisitor to requisition a group of SM from Chapter X in order to complete a mission. No, I still think it is utterly redundant. Politics, and you don't get the diversity I mentioned, either. Space Marine chapters as a whole night flat out refuse you. The loyalties of the brothers are to the chapter itself, not to you the inquisitor, or to your mission. The brothers sent to the Death Watch are specifically sent to do ONE thing: act as the chamber militant of the Ordo Xenos. You get diversity from several chapters. You don't have to worry about chapters refusing you. You don't have to worry about misplaced loyalties. They are specifically YOURS to command. Just because you think it is redundant doesn't mean it really is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Except the chamber militant has been retconned away now? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Except the chamber militant has been retconned away now?No it hasn't. It's like the Grey Knights. It is its own chapter, but it still belongs to the Inquisition. Notice the seal of the inquisition in their emblem? Or the fact that inquisitors often lead kill teams? Where do you get it was retconned? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 It's not unbelievable. The death watch allows an inquisitor to have a small force with several space marines of various specialities report directly to him, and not to their chapters. it makes sense when you think of them as Ordo Xeno's Hitmen. They are loyal only to the inquisitor handlers rather than a chapter master, and as such they deserve a special place in hell the imperium. I don't really see what prevents an inquisitor to requisition a group of SM from Chapter X in order to complete a mission. No, I still think it is utterly redundant. Politics, and you don't get the diversity I mentioned, either. Space Marine chapters as a whole night flat out refuse you. The loyalties of the brothers are to the chapter itself, not to you the inquisitor, or to your mission. The brothers sent to the Death Watch are specifically sent to do ONE thing: act as the chamber militant of the Ordo Xenos. You get diversity from several chapters. You don't have to worry about chapters refusing you. You don't have to worry about misplaced loyalties. They are specifically YOURS to command. Just because you think it is redundant doesn't mean it really is. Various specialities, diversity ? I can't see that being a thing for the deathwatch. At an individual scale (where "chapter tactics" matter not), it boils down to what the individuals are good at. "Politics" just ain't an answer to tell to an inquisitor. He is the will of the emperor made manifest. All servants, SM or not, simply are forced to obey them because they're at the very top of the imperial hierarchy. And if SM chapters refuse that fact, they're rogue chapters at best and traitors at worst. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Right, because we all know that space marines have always been cooperative to the inquisition before ;) The death watch makes perfect sense. If you can't see the value, that's on you. Maybe if you read deeper into their lore, you'd get it better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Right, because we all know that space marines have always been cooperative to the inquisition before You're thinking Space Wolves and that's normal. Their thing is that they're a first founding chapter that can mostly get away with it disagreeing with the inquisition. It illustrates how they stand appart from the rest of the chapters who get purged for less than that. The death watch makes perfect sense. If you can't see the value, that's on you. In a galaxy where space marines chapter are a thing. The deathwatch is redundant. I can see the "cool factor" value of the thing. But let's avoid pretending it is a practical sound idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 I've already explained how it's practical. They are special operations small groups comprised of the best that many chapters have to offer in such a way that it does not deprive those chapters of manpower, set up in a way where specialists from various cultures and backgrounds can contribute their expertise against various Xenos in sufficient strength to take down the enemy in special missions. Some chapters have more experience fighting certain Xenos then others, such as the Ultramarines having the most experience against tyranids, etc. It also provides a direct link where an inquisitor can have DEDICATED space marines. Think about it like this, if there is a huge war going on, against say... The tyranids. The Ultramarines are already super engaged, and probably shouldn't spare the manpower. At the same time, almost every chapter around is engaged in similar conflicts, and also cannot really spare the manpower. The inquisitor can still demand a huge force, or he can go to a dedicated force made up of one guy from each of those chapters and use them, without fear of depriving the rest of the war effort of troops. Think of it like special teams and details in the army. You can have one whole squad or fire team do one detail and deprive the overall effort of a whole squad, or you can pick one or two guys from each squad and then each squad can still complete its OWN mission. The latter is what we do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 But contributing to the deathwatch robs chapters from a part of their manpower. So I don't get how it would be different if Inquisitor X came around he closest chapter and asked : "I want you three best marines in two hours. Kiss them goodbye, big mission ahead. Peace out". And that's probably how it is done where there is no deathwatch around (which is undoubtebly quite often since the galaxy is huge and they're so tiny). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 What ever..it's not worth arguing with you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Yeah. So I don't get how you can say that : They are special operations small groups comprised of the best that many chapters have to offer in such a way that it does not deprive those chapters of manpower Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Because losing one guy isn't the same as losing 20? I already explained it using a real life military example ive experienced, even. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Not to mention, the inquisitor has the death watch already at his disposal, he doesn't have to ask or tell other chapters to give him men, which can be denied. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 And you can say, "the inquisitor can demand and can't be refused" all you want. Both 40k and real life are chalked full of examples of people refusing to comply with people who had the legal authority to do whatever they wanted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Not to mention, the inquisitor has the death watch already at his disposal, he doesn't have to ask or tell other chapters to give him men, which can be denied. I don't think the inquisitors believe they can be denied when they ask for men. And I don't think chapters deny them when they do, because most are smart enough to realize that if an inquisitor is asking, it must be pretty damn important. You're right, the deathwatch is already at the disposal of the inquisition. But it ain't everywhere in the galaxy. And inquisitors call upon chapters virtually everyday in the galaxy for a variety of tasks. And you can say, "the inquisitor can demand and can't be refused" all you want. Both 40k and real life are chalked full of examples of people refusing to comply with people who had the legal authority to do whatever they wanted. That's right. Are you saying the deathwatch shouldn't be trusted ? I knew from the start all those blackshields were Alpha Legion infiltrators ! Inquisitors might get refused from time to time. But from what we know, they tend to make an example of such behavior. In the end, I'd be willing to let it all slide because we're getting away from the initial topic, and that bothers me quite a bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 There are several stories where they are denied and/or killed for not doing it the right way. Hell, even the fluff says that inquisitors know not to make such demands lightly. Just because you have the legal authority doesn't mean you can/will get away with using it like that. Especially if the chapter has a lot of allies. Even some inquisitors might side with them like that. Think realistically. And how much research have you actually done on the death watch? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannicide Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Now I just want to read a short story about a Chapter murdering an Inquisitor who overstepped their boundaries in issuing a Deathwatch summons. That could be entertaining. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 There are several stories where they are denied and/or killed for not doing it the right way. Hell, even the fluff says that inquisitors know not to make such demands lightly. Just because you have the legal authority doesn't mean you can/will get away with using it like that. Especially if the chapter has a lot of allies. Even some inquisitors might side with them like that. Think realistically. Of course there are. And there are also stories of Inquisitors planning an all out invasion of the Fenris system just because the Space Wolves disobeyed them. Even though the events took a halt before it was too late, there are still many inquisitors who simply want the Space Wolves dead because they overstepped their mandate in the grand hierarchy of the Imperium. And that's part of the setting, or the grimdark. The Imperium is in a state of latent civil war, rippen with grudges, mistrusts and vendettas. Space Marines chapters clash between each other on occasion. The Inquisition is sometimes quick to purge chapters and might very well clash with some chapter master who disagrees with them. In the end, all that keeps every of these subfactions together is the threat of a thousand common enemies. And yet, even that lethal and terminal threat isn't enough to prevent them from being at each other's throat. That's the reality of the setting. On the deathwatch : quite a bit. Read a few RPG books on them along with most of what there is to know about them (lexicanum). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Right, because we all know that space marines have always been cooperative to the inquisition before You're thinking Space Wolves and that's normal. Their thing is that they're a first founding chapter that can mostly get away with it disagreeing with the inquisition. It illustrates how they stand appart from the rest of the chapters who get purged for less than that.The death watch makes perfect sense. If you can't see the value, that's on you.In a galaxy where space marines chapter are a thing. The deathwatch is redundant. I can see the "cool factor" value of the thing. But let's avoid pretending it is a practical sound idea. Compare the Wolves to the Celestial Lions, who once tried to chase up an Inquisitor for being heavy-handed and were covertly almost purged during Armageddon as a result. With control of the planet at stake, the Insquisition wholeheartedly tried to wipe out a serving Space Marine Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4470914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Through chapter three now, and quite liking it. The Deathwatch was just formed and the scene of the Kill Squad coming together for the first time and assuming their new, parallel identity was well executed, including initial doubts and expected problems in the future. If anything, it makes me want to pick up a box of Deathwatch/Death Masque even more than I already did. Lots more politics again this time around, and it feels more like what I enjoyed about the series than the action setpieces of the last novels. Of course, those will still come for Watchers, but having the first third (as far as my progress goes) spent on politics and the DW origin is a big plus to me. We had enough large scale action the past months as it is. As for the Deathwatch itself: It is hardly pointless or redundant. These are veterans of fighting xenos threats. They go to the Deathwatch to contribute their knowledge to be applied where it is necessary and useful - a Chapter can wage a decade of war against Orks while effectively wasting all the experience they have with Eldar, for example. Sending those veterans with experience to share it with other veterans is a good thing, and they take even more experience all around back to the Chapter, benefitting all. The Deathwatch also isn't a static force, apart from Blackshields and certain command structures who dedicate themselves wholly to the DW. Their service is temporary, and they return to their Chapters (if they survive) to bring them the fruits of their labours. The Chapter isn't deprived of necessary manpower as the amount of veterans sent is small and less devastating than having a veteran or even a sergeant/captain die in the middle of a battle. It is something the Chapter can prepare for, discuss and send who they think is appropriate without depriving themselves of the most vital gears in their order. The returning DW candidate might well be leadership material upon his return, however, reinforcing the Chapter further. Sure, you can have very specialized Chapters or at times even Companies, but those can be tied up in larger engagements more often than not. The Inquisition's Deathwatch is deployed as seen fit, to prevent such large scale engagements (for example by eliminating a genestealer cult before it can manifest properly) in the first place, or to disrupt xenos threats to the point of turning a losing war into a victory for regular Chapters or the Imperial Guard. They are a tool to be applied, not a major force for ground war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4471051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Except the chamber militant has been retconned away now?No it hasn't. It's like the Grey Knights. It is its own chapter, but it still belongs to the Inquisition. Notice the seal of the inquisition in their emblem? Or the fact that inquisitors often lead kill teams? Where do you get it was retconned? The relationship exists, but I thought in the tumour thread atia said 'chamber militant' was gone as a concept in the book. There is one para about the Ordo Xenos, but the death watch are set in an occasional relationship to the inquisition now - rather than Inquisitor's, Eisenhorn's & 3rd edn's fixed, subservient relationship to the masters of the Ordos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4471317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDrake28 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Well if that's true they probably shouldn't have the big 'ol Inquisitorial 'I' all over their armour. :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4471475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 I know, it's odd - utilising the inquisitorial iconography whilst not addressing its central associations. It suits the way the new codex is designed to be an autonomous marine force, but it involves retconing aspects of the fluff as it exists. A bit like the Grey Knights' last codex, I guess. Anyway, I like my old fluff, and those mighty Deathwatchers being servants of Lord Alessandro Rorken-types - that said alot about both the Inquisition and the chamber militant itself Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4471481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Now was that an actual quote or someone making an interpretation without having actually read it, but based off the rumor? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4471487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Now was that an actual quote or someone making an interpretation without having actually read it, but based off the rumor? From mega-thread. Atia, on 12 Aug 2016 - 6:04 PM, said: Zero mention of the Ordo Xenos or their Inquisitors (alteast I haven't seen one). There isn't really an "arm of the Inquisition" feel anymore. Edit: They went with "Elite of Elite, the Marine Chapter that hunts and kills Xenos, sometimes even with 40-200 marines" over "Kill Teams who support/are lead by an Inquisitor, and hunt down Xenos". There is a box out on pg6 of the codex that mentions the Ordo Xenos - "The Ordo Xenos... is counted amongst the Deathwatch's foremost allies". It does mention that sometimes a Watch Fortress is commanded by a Lord Inquisitor rather than a Space Marine, and when Inquisitorial forces are led by a Deathwatch Battle Brother, but no mention of the term "Chamber-Militant". EDIT - found the picture! And the introductory fluff doesn't say anything about the inquisition :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4471504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Yeah, but that doesn't mean it's not the chamber militant. The sister of battle are the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus, and they are in the same boat. It's the same with the Grey Knights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/32/#findComment-4471718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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