Apothecary Vaddon Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Could just be they're going away from the term 'chamber militant' and towards a more autonomous literary representation of the DW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Yeah, but that doesn't mean it's not the chamber militant. The sister of battle are the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus, and they are in the same boat. It's the same with the Grey Knights. Yeah indeed; but as with Apothecary Vaddon I think GW have moved away from the chambers militant as a concept. Anyway, the Sisters as a chamber militant was itself a retcon for the Witch Hunters codex, as the 2nd edn Codex Sisters of Battle had a different narrative: on p. 14 the Ordo Hereticus is mentioned as founded after the Age of Apostasy like in the later codex, but there is no direct relationship to the Sisters. Indeed it's quite adversarial to the Ecclesiarchy - preventing another Vandire effectively. Until Codex Witch Hunters the Sisters were until then simply under the control of Ecclesiarchs; whereas C: Witch Hunters had that more odd balancing of them as both - 'As well as forming the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus, the Sisters of Battle also provide the fighting arm of the Ecclesiarchy.' Prior depictions, such as that comic Daemonifuge, had a more adversarial relationship of church and inquisition. The Codex Witch hunters rationale made some sense: not allowing the Ecclesiarchy to have its army, the Inquisition oversaw the Sisters & gained its own army. But it was a retcon of the past composition and identity of the army ... one that itself has been retconned in recent editions. In any case retcons happen, such is life in a fictional universe. Interestingly, looking at the 2nd edn codex for sisters, perhaps the term Chamber Militant could itself have been inspired by its 'Orders Militant' used for the various sister orders. Or it was used because of the common pseudo-historic route of it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Yeah, but that doesn't mean it's not the chamber militant. The sister of battle are the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus, and they are in the same boat. It's the same with the Grey Knights. Yeah indeed; but as with Apothecary Vaddon I think GW have moved away from the chambers militant as a concept. Anyway, the Sisters as a chamber militant was itself a retcon for the Witch Hunters codex, as the 2nd edn Codex Sisters of Battle had a different narrative: on p. 14 the Ordo Hereticus is mentioned as founded after the Age of Apostasy like in the later codex, but there is no direct relationship to the Sisters. Indeed it's quite adversarial to the Ecclesiarchy - preventing another Vandire effectively. Until Codex Witch Hunters the Sisters were until then simply under the control of Ecclesiarchs; whereas C: Witch Hunters had that more odd balancing of them as both - 'As well as forming the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus, the Sisters of Battle also provide the fighting arm of the Ecclesiarchy.' Prior depictions, such as that comic Daemonifuge, had a more adversarial relationship of church and inquisition. The Codex Witch hunters rationale made some sense: not allowing the Ecclesiarchy to have its army, the Inquisition oversaw the Sisters & gained its own army. But it was a retcon of the past composition and identity of the army ... one that itself has been retconned in recent editions. In any case retcons happen, such is life in a fictional universe. Interestingly, looking at the 2nd edn codex for sisters, perhaps the term Chamber Militant could itself have been inspired by its 'Orders Militant' used for the various sister orders. Or it was used because of the common pseudo-historic route of it all. Exactly what you said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 great, they removed an awesome peace of fluff from the codex too. No more Men in Black space marines under a shady government figure it seems, now it's just a chapter for the sake of a chapter. it would be interesting though, to hear why they have the best equipment and the best training when they are not directly under the inquisition as an ordo militant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Even the stories they released this weekend still reflect their nature as an Inquisitorial weapon. Legends of the Dark Millennium: Deathwatch even features Kryptmann, and Ian St. Martin's short story Swordwind from a few days ago has them under Inquisitorial oath. So yeah, I don't see the big changes. The Codex simply gives an excuse for players to field exclusively Deathwatch armies without forcing an Inquisitor in there. Re: Watchers in Death and Sisters of Silence, it isn't like Veritus kept it out of malice, as far as I got. Vulkan only mentioned the Sisters in passing while at Ullanor, and the consensus of the others was that they are dead, or that they weren't even fully aware of them being a thing. The knowledge of their continued existence wasn't widely available and up until the disaster on Ullanor and the information from Magneric, nobody even expected the psykers to be a big problem and opportunity. So yeah, let's not forget that as the readership we are aware of far, far more than the characters within the stories. We may have seen the Ork psyker blow up and take his dudes with him while the Black Templars were chanting, but nobody else has until this book. Their realization of what the psykers mean only just occured to them. Koorland and co even get upset over not having known before, both what awaited them on Ullanor and how to deal with it. The problem I have with it is more that it is, once again, Veritus who has the information required. He knew about Vulkan, and he knows where to start looking for the remaining Sisters. I'd have liked somebody else to provide that nugget this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Even the stories they released this weekend still reflect their nature as an Inquisitorial weapon. Legends of the Dark Millennium: Deathwatch even features Kryptmann, and Ian St. Martin's short story Swordwind from a few days ago has them under Inquisitorial oath. So yeah, I don't see the big changes. The Codex simply gives an excuse for players to field exclusively Deathwatch armies without forcing an Inquisitor in there. Re: Watchers in Death and Sisters of Silence, it isn't like Veritus kept it out of malice, as far as I got. Vulkan only mentioned the Sisters in passing while at Ullanor, and the consensus of the others was that they are dead, or that they weren't even fully aware of them being a thing. The knowledge of their continued existence wasn't widely available and up until the disaster on Ullanor and the information from Magneric, nobody even expected the psykers to be a big problem and opportunity. So yeah, let's not forget that as the readership we are aware of far, far more than the characters within the stories. We may have seen the Ork psyker blow up and take his dudes with him while the Black Templars were chanting, but nobody else has until this book. Their realization of what the psykers mean only just occured to them. Koorland and co even get upset over not having known before, both what awaited them on Ullanor and how to deal with it. The problem I have with it is more that it is, once again, Veritus who has the information required. He knew about Vulkan, and he knows where to start looking for the remaining Sisters. I'd have liked somebody else to provide that nugget this time. It's more and more seems like Veritus is becoming a true Alpha Legion operative. By the way - it seems Mesring would be the new big chaos heretic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 great, they removed an awesome peace of fluff from the codex too. No more Men in Black space marines under a shady government figure it seems, now it's just a chapter for the sake of a chapter. it would be interesting though, to hear why they have the best equipment and the best training when they are not directly under the inquisition as an ordo militant. Forge world basically confirmed they still belong to the Inquisition. They had an in universe "selection" screen for the death watch kill team vehicle assets directed to the Inquisitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xisor Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Holy spoilers, you nits! Just finished it up this evening. I *think* I get what people mean when they say they didn't like it. I loved the idea behind the Deathwatch - the necessity, the guilt, the cooperation with the Inquisition, the heavy statement that the Inquisition's factions were gearing up to seize the reins. I loved the chase, I loved tons of it. Lots of really cool touches. But deary me - don't ever spend over half a book writing Deathwatch bolter porn. I don't want to read Deathwatch bolter porn unless it's a vehicle for: - excellent character development/interplay - showcasing an absurdly great vivid event (blowing up a moon, say - you pretty much could have had Mesring's scene be the DW introduction, in media res) - a vehicle for a plot twist to be exposed Otherwise long sequenceso five guys called Mo taking g on improbable odds that even Vulkan couldn't... nah. Skip all that. Cut almost all of it. For a series that's greatest currency has been its pace and 'skipping to the good bits', the last three have really dwelled on the not as good bits. Any one on its own would be a novelty, but as a trio it's a bit onerous. I'm not reading the Inquisitor/High Lords bits champing to get to some more bolter slaughtering hundreds of billions of idiot Orks! Also, where was the cool orky stuff? As said, lots of really good bits. But also half a novel of Deathwatch improbably slaughtering uncharacteristically (and uninterestingly, for this series) rubbish Orks. They'd better not have cut good bits for that. Because there were plenty of good bits, I can imagine there might have been more...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Holy spoilers, you nits! Just finished it up this evening. I *think* I get what people mean when they say they didn't like it. I loved the idea behind the Deathwatch - the necessity, the guilt, the cooperation with the Inquisition, the heavy statement that the Inquisition's factions were gearing up to seize the reins. I loved the chase, I loved tons of it. Lots of really cool touches. But deary me - don't ever spend over half a book writing Deathwatch bolter porn. I don't want to read Deathwatch bolter porn unless it's a vehicle for: - excellent character development/interplay - showcasing an absurdly great vivid event (blowing up a moon, say - you pretty much could have had Mesring's scene be the DW introduction, in media res) - a vehicle for a plot twist to be exposed Otherwise long sequenceso five guys called Mo taking g on improbable odds that even Vulkan couldn't... nah. Skip all that. Cut almost all of it. For a series that's greatest currency has been its pace and 'skipping to the good bits', the last three have really dwelled on the not as good bits. Any one on its own would be a novelty, but as a trio it's a bit onerous. I'm not reading the Inquisitor/High Lords bits champing to get to some more bolter slaughtering hundreds of billions of idiot Orks! Also, where was the cool orky stuff? As said, lots of really good bits. But also half a novel of Deathwatch improbably slaughtering uncharacteristically (and uninterestingly, for this series) rubbish Orks. They'd better not have cut good bits for that. Because there were plenty of good bits, I can imagine there might have been more...! whoopsie I didn't think the Beast must die was that bad. in my oppinion it was in the top three, and only spoiled by the annadale books sandwiching it. Also helps i'm a mechanicus fanboy because there was some great mechanicus stuff in there (they remembered that knights exist!!) For some reason the Deathwatch formation thing didn't really sit well with me. I don't know, maybe I don't understand anything symbolic, but I always felt like the inquisition should have had more of a hand in forming it instead of one going "That. That is mine now." to something that just sort of happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathspectersgt7 Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 They tend to go one way or the other . I like the less heavy handed Inquisitor stories. When they have the meatsacks running the show they make the Marines look like abunch of dolts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Holy spoilers, you nits! Just finished it up this evening. I *think* I get what people mean when they say they didn't like it. I loved the idea behind the Deathwatch - the necessity, the guilt, the cooperation with the Inquisition, the heavy statement that the Inquisition's factions were gearing up to seize the reins. I loved the chase, I loved tons of it. Lots of really cool touches. But deary me - don't ever spend over half a book writing Deathwatch bolter porn. I don't want to read Deathwatch bolter porn unless it's a vehicle for: - excellent character development/interplay - showcasing an absurdly great vivid event (blowing up a moon, say - you pretty much could have had Mesring's scene be the DW introduction, in media res) - a vehicle for a plot twist to be exposed Otherwise long sequenceso five guys called Mo taking g on improbable odds that even Vulkan couldn't... nah. Skip all that. Cut almost all of it. For a series that's greatest currency has been its pace and 'skipping to the good bits', the last three have really dwelled on the not as good bits. Any one on its own would be a novelty, but as a trio it's a bit onerous. I'm not reading the Inquisitor/High Lords bits champing to get to some more bolter slaughtering hundreds of billions of idiot Orks! Also, where was the cool orky stuff? As said, lots of really good bits. But also half a novel of Deathwatch improbably slaughtering uncharacteristically (and uninterestingly, for this series) rubbish Orks. They'd better not have cut good bits for that. Because there were plenty of good bits, I can imagine there might have been more...! whoopsie I didn't think the Beast must die was that bad. in my oppinion it was in the top three, and only spoiled by the annadale books sandwiching it. Also helps i'm a mechanicus fanboy because there was some great mechanicus stuff in there (they remembered that knights exist!!) For some reason the Deathwatch formation thing didn't really sit well with me. I don't know, maybe I don't understand anything symbolic, but I always felt like the inquisition should have had more of a hand in forming it instead of one going "That. That is mine now." to something that just sort of happened. It was bad - comparing to a lot of novels in the same TBA series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Holy spoilers, you nits! Just finished it up this evening. I *think* I get what people mean when they say they didn't like it. I loved the idea behind the Deathwatch - the necessity, the guilt, the cooperation with the Inquisition, the heavy statement that the Inquisition's factions were gearing up to seize the reins. I loved the chase, I loved tons of it. Lots of really cool touches. But deary me - don't ever spend over half a book writing Deathwatch bolter porn. I don't want to read Deathwatch bolter porn unless it's a vehicle for: - excellent character development/interplay - showcasing an absurdly great vivid event (blowing up a moon, say - you pretty much could have had Mesring's scene be the DW introduction, in media res) - a vehicle for a plot twist to be exposed Otherwise long sequenceso five guys called Mo taking g on improbable odds that even Vulkan couldn't... nah. Skip all that. Cut almost all of it. For a series that's greatest currency has been its pace and 'skipping to the good bits', the last three have really dwelled on the not as good bits. Any one on its own would be a novelty, but as a trio it's a bit onerous. I'm not reading the Inquisitor/High Lords bits champing to get to some more bolter slaughtering hundreds of billions of idiot Orks! Also, where was the cool orky stuff? As said, lots of really good bits. But also half a novel of Deathwatch improbably slaughtering uncharacteristically (and uninterestingly, for this series) rubbish Orks. They'd better not have cut good bits for that. Because there were plenty of good bits, I can imagine there might have been more...! whoopsie I didn't think the Beast must die was that bad. in my oppinion it was in the top three, and only spoiled by the annadale books sandwiching it. Also helps i'm a mechanicus fanboy because there was some great mechanicus stuff in there (they remembered that knights exist!!) For some reason the Deathwatch formation thing didn't really sit well with me. I don't know, maybe I don't understand anything symbolic, but I always felt like the inquisition should have had more of a hand in forming it instead of one going "That. That is mine now." to something that just sort of happened. It was bad - comparing to a lot of novels in the same TBA series. How so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Holy spoilers, you nits! Just finished it up this evening. I *think* I get what people mean when they say they didn't like it. I loved the idea behind the Deathwatch - the necessity, the guilt, the cooperation with the Inquisition, the heavy statement that the Inquisition's factions were gearing up to seize the reins. I loved the chase, I loved tons of it. Lots of really cool touches. But deary me - don't ever spend over half a book writing Deathwatch bolter porn. I don't want to read Deathwatch bolter porn unless it's a vehicle for: - excellent character development/interplay - showcasing an absurdly great vivid event (blowing up a moon, say - you pretty much could have had Mesring's scene be the DW introduction, in media res) - a vehicle for a plot twist to be exposed Otherwise long sequenceso five guys called Mo taking g on improbable odds that even Vulkan couldn't... nah. Skip all that. Cut almost all of it. For a series that's greatest currency has been its pace and 'skipping to the good bits', the last three have really dwelled on the not as good bits. Any one on its own would be a novelty, but as a trio it's a bit onerous. I'm not reading the Inquisitor/High Lords bits champing to get to some more bolter slaughtering hundreds of billions of idiot Orks! Also, where was the cool orky stuff? As said, lots of really good bits. But also half a novel of Deathwatch improbably slaughtering uncharacteristically (and uninterestingly, for this series) rubbish Orks. They'd better not have cut good bits for that. Because there were plenty of good bits, I can imagine there might have been more...! whoopsie I didn't think the Beast must die was that bad. in my oppinion it was in the top three, and only spoiled by the annadale books sandwiching it. Also helps i'm a mechanicus fanboy because there was some great mechanicus stuff in there (they remembered that knights exist!!) For some reason the Deathwatch formation thing didn't really sit well with me. I don't know, maybe I don't understand anything symbolic, but I always felt like the inquisition should have had more of a hand in forming it instead of one going "That. That is mine now." to something that just sort of happened. It was bad - comparing to a lot of novels in the same TBA series. How so? Blank, unimaginative and with some poor writing - it's like Gav of old (Deliverance Lost) has woken up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Well you do tend towards being much harsher in your criticisms - I though the writing was fine, had a good amount of meat there on the bones, and worked well within the overall narrative themes of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Holy spoilers, you nits! Just finished it up this evening. I *think* I get what people mean when they say they didn't like it. I loved the idea behind the Deathwatch - the necessity, the guilt, the cooperation with the Inquisition, the heavy statement that the Inquisition's factions were gearing up to seize the reins. I loved the chase, I loved tons of it. Lots of really cool touches. But deary me - don't ever spend over half a book writing Deathwatch bolter porn. I don't want to read Deathwatch bolter porn unless it's a vehicle for: - excellent character development/interplay - showcasing an absurdly great vivid event (blowing up a moon, say - you pretty much could have had Mesring's scene be the DW introduction, in media res) - a vehicle for a plot twist to be exposed Otherwise long sequenceso five guys called Mo taking g on improbable odds that even Vulkan couldn't... nah. Skip all that. Cut almost all of it. For a series that's greatest currency has been its pace and 'skipping to the good bits', the last three have really dwelled on the not as good bits. Any one on its own would be a novelty, but as a trio it's a bit onerous. I'm not reading the Inquisitor/High Lords bits champing to get to some more bolter slaughtering hundreds of billions of idiot Orks! Also, where was the cool orky stuff? As said, lots of really good bits. But also half a novel of Deathwatch improbably slaughtering uncharacteristically (and uninterestingly, for this series) rubbish Orks. They'd better not have cut good bits for that. Because there were plenty of good bits, I can imagine there might have been more...! whoopsie I didn't think the Beast must die was that bad. in my oppinion it was in the top three, and only spoiled by the annadale books sandwiching it. Also helps i'm a mechanicus fanboy because there was some great mechanicus stuff in there (they remembered that knights exist!!) For some reason the Deathwatch formation thing didn't really sit well with me. I don't know, maybe I don't understand anything symbolic, but I always felt like the inquisition should have had more of a hand in forming it instead of one going "That. That is mine now." to something that just sort of happened. It was bad - comparing to a lot of novels in the same TBA series. How so? Blank, unimaginative and with some poor writing - it's like Gav of old (Deliverance Lost) has woken up huh, I liked both deliverance lost and Beast arises so to each their own I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Having read both, nothing released recently matches my loathing for Deliverance Lost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 I enjoyed the book. I do agree that the Bolter Porn is starting to increase and frankly having some weird teleporter that nukes everything in the vicinity whilst your elite team escaped with no casualties does seem a bit too plot armour-y for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 I was surprised about the lack of deaths on part of the Deathwatch too. However, I can see why their own teleport homer would work better than the one on the moon. Heck, the difference in mass alone was insane. I mean, part of the moon *did* teleport somewhere, it just wasn't strong enough to take all of it at once, which resulted in a collapse of the thing. Still, I think it'd have been a good thing to have somebody survive the jump later in the book with a few limbs less, though that might put an end to the device's future. While I agree the bolter porn is increasing, I don't think that's necessarily new. The early books too had a lot of action, just that it wasn't as bolter focused. There were a lot of separate plotlines with action setpieces, rather than big battles like recently. The earlier split-nature of the books balanced it better, but right now, the story has to make headway against the orks, and see results, for the rest to develop further. What I worry about right now is the descriptions for the next two novels up on Amazon. The Last Son of Dorn has them attack Ullanor again, while Shadow of Ullanor also says they attack Ullanor again. The descriptions are somewhat similar, though they've been up there for months so they might be preliminary. I just hope there's enough drama and content for them to tackle if the final confrontation spans two novels, considering how we saw them get into the Beast's inner sanctum once already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Is there anything that specifically says Vulkan was fighting in the Webway since the Horus Heresy all the way to "present Beast arises" time? Maybe they go back to Ullanor to find his body. Shockingly they will either find it ... or it will be mysteriously missing. Having him lose against the Beast was good. I got the impression The Beast is some kind of The Emperor level being so all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 He mentions eternity a lot, coupled with Eldrad's earlier words from the HH, seems to go hand in hand with Eternity Gate. Not sure what he was doing right before 'present' TBA time, but seeing as though he was on Caldera, might have just been roaming for a few hundred years doing random stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 What book were Eldrads words about eternity in and what did he say? Must be an early book, I don't remember it off hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Believe it was Vulkan Lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drooling blood Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Maybe hes stuck in the great green, keeping the ork psyche in check. Would explain why theyre just fodder. Vulkan comes back and the Ork power levels grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 From The Beast Must Die: I dared what others could not. I knew what awaited me in the inferno and I stepped willingly into the flames. No other could. As above, so below, the fight without and the battle within. Endless torment, unending perseverance. Not one of my brothers could have done it, in body or in mind. It was my agony alone to suffer. Eldrad tells Vulkan this in Vulkan Lives, refering to the "matter of earth": ‘This might be the only chance I get to contact you. After this, I may not be able to return. You must live, Vulkan,’ the alien told me, ‘you must live, but stand alone as a gatekeeper. You are the only one who can perform this duty. You alone are the hope.’ Vulkan holding the Webway makes sense in many ways. He is perpetual, for one, and he is the physically strongest of his brothers. He endures much. It would also explain his absence during the Siege itself, coupled with his reappearance much later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drooling blood Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 First quote DC, he could be talking about Istvaan. Where his cowardly brothers wouldnt follow him into the fire and he paid for it. So he should be on the throne or guarding the web. Two different things Didnt you need to be a pskyer to jump on the mini throne the scars found? Second quote He could be the gate keeper, so theres not another beast. Its not as if Eldrad has been wrong lately is it. Hes also been sucked into the green. How did he escape that? Physically strongest, what doz da green respect most. Maybe hes smashing down da green, so they dont have a beast that arises again, maybe hes trying to escape da green That might be why he needed his telly hama, to come back when needed. And why Orks are cannon fodder atm. He returns to the humiverse, Da Orks start getting tuffa. The only flames hes stepped into are green. The Khan actually disappeared into the webway, why cant it be him pulling a Gotrek, known for speed but finally tiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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