Forward Assist Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 ADB is the GRRM of BL. He writes a character you really like and can get behind and stabs them - and you - in the back. But, to be fair, you can't really have it any other way. Slight thread drift but I'm always slightly anxious when writers take over other author's key characters. It is inevitable over long series like HH or TBA but it sometimes robs the story of consistency and jars the flow. For example, Vangorich is easily the stand out character of TBA for me but the quality of his portrayal does go from smooth to rough at times. Not every author can pull off every type of character... Which is why I think Alpharius got killed off in HH. Dan Abnett had a really good idea with the twins but I don't think there was the collective author interest - so to speak - in expanding that original idea in the long run. So, for me, hopefully if the GKs do put in appearance any big character reveals get left for a more suitable time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4517039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 I do wonder what some authors make of how characters they've portrayed are then depicted by others. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4517041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 ADB is the GRRM of BL. He writes a character you really like and can get behind and stabs them - and you - in the back. But, to be fair, you can't really have it any other way. Slight thread drift but I'm always slightly anxious when writers take over other author's key characters. It is inevitable over long series like HH or TBA but it sometimes robs the story of consistency and jars the flow. For example, Vangorich is easily the stand out character of TBA for me but the quality of his portrayal does go from smooth to rough at times. Not every author can pull off every type of character... Which is why I think Alpharius got killed off in HH. Dan Abnett had a really good idea with the twins but I don't think there was the collective author interest - so to speak - in expanding that original idea in the long run. So, for me, hopefully if the GKs do put in appearance any big character reveals get left for a more suitable time. i really hope that your "spoiler" isn't the case Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4517078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 I actually do. There's more opportunity for chaos and the inevitable twists of fate that way. If, up until this point, they were trying to aspire to some idealistic plan, it is only fitting that they, in their arrogance, got denied that path in such a way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4517309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleanse And Purify Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 Wait what? Why should the inventor of "Death to the false Emperor!" And one of Curzes most loyal sons join the GK? Where does that come from? I've has a look but could only find theories and no real description of Khyron. As Curze himself said, "why not?" Also, it comes from The Emperor's Gift. I cannot give you the exact page number, as I use a kindle version and for some reason they no longer give page numbers, but it s 46% of the way through the book. Hyperion is on Titan, among the graves and monuments to fallen Grey Knights. The statue on the eighth plinth showed a warrior in the same armour of blood jade as his brothers, one boot lifted to rest on a sculpted boulder. He carried a nemesis halberd, the spearpoint thrust into the plinth itself, letting him lean upon it with casual indifference. Whatever features he possessed in life were hidden beneath his helm, which in turn was weathered to near smoothness by time’s touch. Khyron Grand Master of the Eighth Brotherhood ‘Already, you exalt me for my triumphs, When I ask only that you remember me for my treacheries. Victory is nothing more than survival. It carries no weight of honour or worth beyond what we ascribe to it. If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers.’ So, yeah. Leads the Eighth Brotherhood, leans on a halberd with casual indifference, expresses a rather cynical worldview, emphasizing his treacheries and the betrayal of others. Plus, named Khyron. Sev is dead, baby. Long live Khyron. EDIT: for what it's worth, I anticipate this will never be confirmed if true. Unless ADB says "no, it's not true." Because that means it is true. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4517339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Laertes Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 Which is why I think Alpharius got killed off in HH. Dan Abnett had a really good idea with the twins but I don't think there was the collective author interest - so to speak - in expanding that original idea in the long run. It was not Abnett's idea. In various interviews has been said that it was decided in GW's design studio back when the AL's Index Astartes was written, even if it was not clearly said back then Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4517352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareddm Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 Which is why I think Alpharius got killed off in HH. Dan Abnett had a really good idea with the twins but I don't think there was the collective author interest - so to speak - in expanding that original idea in the long run. It was not Abnett's idea. In various interviews has been said that it was decided in GW's design studio back when the AL's Index Astartes was written, even if it was not clearly said back then Sorry, gonna need at least one of those interviews. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4517376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 Which is why I think Alpharius got killed off in HH. Dan Abnett had a really good idea with the twins but I don't think there was the collective author interest - so to speak - in expanding that original idea in the long run. It was not Abnett's idea. In various interviews has been said that it was decided in GW's design studio back when the AL's Index Astartes was written, even if it was not clearly said back then Sorry, gonna need at least one of those interviews. Its right in the Afterword of Legion, actually: What I didn’t know was that Alan had really enjoyed Horus Rising, my first wild stab at a Heresy novel. As I started to throw out what I imagined were sacrificial ideas for him to shoot down, he kept saying ‘yes’. Forget having to give up five to get one past him, he approved everything on my list. Then, barely breaking stride, he gave me another, even bigger secret, one that had been lurking in the deepest, darkest imagination basements of the game designers since the very earliest days of Warhammer 40,000. Alan said, very casually, ‘You can reveal that too, if you like.’ If I like? If I like? Yes, I like very much, thank you! Working on the assumption that you’ve read the novel, I can here reveal that I’m referring to the ‘twin’ thing. You see? Even now, within the circle of trust, I find it hard to speak openly about it. I become all coy and prudish. I feel like I’m saying, ‘You know, it’s that thing, that thing about...’ and then just mouthing the words silently, like Les Dawson used to do when he was playing a scandalised old gossip. But I'd suggest we get back to The Beast Arises and stop with the AL / Grey Knights nonsense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4517402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forward Assist Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 Live and learn! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4517624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 But the janus theory holds until we're proven otherwise! :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4517933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 I actually do. There's more opportunity for chaos and the inevitable twists of fate that way. If, up until this point, they were trying to aspire to some idealistic plan, it is only fitting that they, in their arrogance, got denied that path in such a way. that doesn't really have much to do with the idea that abnett had a story arc for the twins that was subsequently abandoned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4518012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 Just that it wasn't. It was part of Deliverance Lost, The Serpent Beneath, The Seventh Serpent, Tallarn, Scars, Wolf King and Praetorian of Dorn. It wasn't abandoned, it was progressed to a point that throws their carefully laid plans into question and inevitably sets them on a course they, as a Legion, needed to take. You're working on the assumption that this collapse and chaos wasn't exactly what Abnett intended to come off it in the first place. Beyond that, even from the afterword of Legion, it seems highly questionable if Abnett ever really intended to be involved in writing more on that story arc. He used them as a plot device in The Unremembered Empire, but even there he barely touched on them beyond the topic of being elite infiltrators. Dan's role in the Heresy and beyond has usually been that of trendsetter. He has some idea, sets it up somehow, and leaves it for the other authors to work out and lead to a conclusion. Unlike Gav, or Chris, or Aaron, he doesn't stick with the characters and factions he redefined (beyond his pet Perpetuals, of course..). Besides, everything going on in the Heresy is part of a grander scheme. It is vetted, okayd and discussed by editors and other authors, and they know plotlines years in advance from what Laurie and co have been stated. The "abandoned" story arc may have been concluded already, while fans of the Alpha Legion scream in despair on forums across the net. We won't know until more is revealed. But then, NONE of this is actually relevant to The Beast Arises (even though the thing about Abnett as the firestarter is true with it as well), and should probably get its own thread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4518024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 I;m finally buying the last book this week, and I feel kinda wierd for waiting so long when before I bought it the day it came out. I think the last book may have almost killed the series for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4518483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 Just that it wasn't. It was part of Deliverance Lost, The Serpent Beneath, The Seventh Serpent, Tallarn, Scars, Wolf King and Praetorian of Dorn. It wasn't abandoned, it was progressed to a point that throws their carefully laid plans into question and inevitably sets them on a course they, as a Legion, needed to take. You're working on the assumption that this collapse and chaos wasn't exactly what Abnett intended to come off it in the first place. Beyond that, even from the afterword of Legion, it seems highly questionable if Abnett ever really intended to be involved in writing more on that story arc. He used them as a plot device in The Unremembered Empire, but even there he barely touched on them beyond the topic of being elite infiltrators. Dan's role in the Heresy and beyond has usually been that of trendsetter. He has some idea, sets it up somehow, and leaves it for the other authors to work out and lead to a conclusion. Unlike Gav, or Chris, or Aaron, he doesn't stick with the characters and factions he redefined (beyond his pet Perpetuals, of course..). Besides, everything going on in the Heresy is part of a grander scheme. It is vetted, okayd and discussed by editors and other authors, and they know plotlines years in advance from what Laurie and co have been stated. The "abandoned" story arc may have been concluded already, while fans of the Alpha Legion scream in despair on forums across the net. We won't know until more is revealed. But then, NONE of this is actually relevant to The Beast Arises (even though the thing about Abnett as the firestarter is true with it as well), and should probably get its own thread. yeah, that completely goes with my original wish that forward assist's spoiler tag wasn't true. ie: i hope that abnett did not have a plan that was abandoned. you countered that by saying that you hoped forward assist's assertion was true by talking about some sort of in-universe plan which you followed with a (very effective) explanation on how forward assist's assertion can't be true, despite you wishing it were. much confusion. and as a professional writer working in the entertainment industry, i do understand how things work with editorial. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4518659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
no I'm alpharius Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 Which is why I think Alpharius got killed off in HH. Dan Abnett had a really good idea with the twins but I don't think there was the collective author interest - so to speak - in expanding that original idea in the long run. It was not Abnett's idea. In various interviews has been said that it was decided in GW's design studio back when the AL's Index Astartes was written, even if it was not clearly said back then Sorry, gonna need at least one of those interviews. Its right in the Afterword of Legion, actually: What I didn’t know was that Alan had really enjoyed Horus Rising, my first wild stab at a Heresy novel. As I started to throw out what I imagined were sacrificial ideas for him to shoot down, he kept saying ‘yes’. Forget having to give up five to get one past him, he approved everything on my list. Then, barely breaking stride, he gave me another, even bigger secret, one that had been lurking in the deepest, darkest imagination basements of the game designers since the very earliest days of Warhammer 40,000. Alan said, very casually, ‘You can reveal that too, if you like.’ If I like? If I like? Yes, I like very much, thank you! Working on the assumption that you’ve read the novel, I can here reveal that I’m referring to the ‘twin’ thing. You see? Even now, within the circle of trust, I find it hard to speak openly about it. I become all coy and prudish. I feel like I’m saying, ‘You know, it’s that thing, that thing about...’ and then just mouthing the words silently, like Les Dawson used to do when he was playing a scandalised old gossip. But I'd suggest we get back to The Beast Arises and stop with the AL / Grey Knights nonsense. There's a great detail about stars that rather backs up the whole "that thing". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4518766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the Raven Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 So I found out how the orks will be defeated: ;D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4520271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 If they've been underwraps that might mean grand masters. Grand masters like janus. Grand masters that wield chainglaives. The same pose Sevatar adopts when anyone but his astropath girlfriend is watching. Dude, she's like 9. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4520290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 If they've been underwraps that might mean grand masters. Grand masters like janus. Grand masters that wield chainglaives. The same pose Sevatar adopts when anyone but his astropath girlfriend is watching. Dude, she's like 9. Damn who writes this stuff? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4520303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleanse And Purify Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 If they've been underwraps that might mean grand masters. Grand masters like janus. Grand masters that wield chainglaives. The same pose Sevatar adopts when anyone but his astropath girlfriend is watching. Dude, she's like 9. Ew, then why's she his girlfriend? Whomever wrote that should feel ashamed I tell ya. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4520314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the Raven Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 There is one rule in all fandoms that cannot be broken. Ship happens. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4520361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleanse And Purify Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 There is one rule in all fandoms that cannot be broken. Ship happens. Um...well I was joking about the whole astropath girlfriend thing. A lot (okay, like three) of ADB's stories have otherwise inhuman murder-machines with a soft-spot for some mortal woman (a lot of his Space Marines have "kind eyes" too ), and I thought it would be fun to rib him for it. Shipping should stay in Tumblr, and moreover, it should stay far, far away from the 9-year old blind psyker and the 200-year old murder-lord. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4520370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 There is one rule in all fandoms that cannot be broken. Ship happens. Um...well I was joking about the whole astropath girlfriend thing. A lot (okay, like three) of ADB's stories have otherwise inhuman murder-machines with a soft-spot for some mortal woman http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296283-chaotic-thoughts-after-reading-talon-of-horus-spoiler-alert/page-2?do=findComment&comment=3825637 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4520384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleanse And Purify Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 There is one rule in all fandoms that cannot be broken. Ship happens. Um...well I was joking about the whole astropath girlfriend thing. A lot (okay, like three) of ADB's stories have otherwise inhuman murder-machines with a soft-spot for some mortal woman http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296283-chaotic-thoughts-after-reading-talon-of-horus-spoiler-alert/page-2?do=findComment&comment=3825637 I'd actually read that already. Where do you think I got the idea that Sevatar steals Khayon's dark eldar waifu before surfing off into the sunset? ;) I enjoy everything you've written, don't get me wrong. I think it's fun to joke around a bit about it is all. I will admit, when reading The Long Night I thought it was a bit odd that Sevatar, second-in-command to the biggest group of murderers this side of Wall Street, would care even a little bit about some random little girl, but well, he seems the least Night Lordy (it's a word, trust me) of all the Night Lords we've met so far (in a good way) so perhaps it makes sense. Khayon having a dark eldar life-ward, a she-wolf daemon friend, and a sister-robot-starship did strike me as "wow, this character seems to have a lot of special nonsense surrounding him" but well, perhaps that is the nature of being a veteran of the Horus Heresy and one of the founders of the Black Legion. If any Chaos Space Marine is gonna be special, it's probably him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4520403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 There is one rule in all fandoms that cannot be broken. Ship happens. Um...well I was joking about the whole astropath girlfriend thing. A lot (okay, like three) of ADB's stories have otherwise inhuman murder-machines with a soft-spot for some mortal woman http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296283-chaotic-thoughts-after-reading-talon-of-horus-spoiler-alert/page-2?do=findComment&comment=3825637 I too have a soft-spot for mortal women in my everyday life, that's fine Aaron. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4520744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 There is one rule in all fandoms that cannot be broken. Ship happens. Um...well I was joking about the whole astropath girlfriend thing. A lot (okay, like three) of ADB's stories have otherwise inhuman murder-machines with a soft-spot for some mortal woman http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296283-chaotic-thoughts-after-reading-talon-of-horus-spoiler-alert/page-2?do=findComment&comment=3825637 I too have a soft-spot for mortal women in my everyday life, that's fine Aaron. My inability to take jokes about this is because of how people can be incalculably crappy about it. It's used as one of the most bizarre, evidenceless accusations that sounds great and makes an easy soundbite ("lol waifu lol") that I've long since lost my sense of humour about it. "lol waifu lol" "Well, Altani is a metaphor for a threefold concept: Sevatar's sterility, his distance from humanity, and his savage sense of isolation and distance from his own Legion despite being glorified by them, and her presence plays into a fourth aspect, discussed later. You see the same allusions elsewhere in Sev's life, where he talks about not understanding other people's jokes or knowing what to say to them - a play on Space Marine angelic/inhuman/transhuman 'autism' - but taken to a sociopathic extreme, from a lot of my reading regarding serial killers. Add that to his repeated desire to work out just what side he's on amidst the hypocrisy of ignorance and selfishness, and those claiming to follow ideals that he doesn't care about. That also ties in with his desire to see the Night Lords accept their place as the Legion was intended to be - which he references a few times - as the bringers of terrifying, merciless justice, not simple slaughter and pleasure in terror. Which links back to Altani perfectly, since he exacts revenge for her not because he's nice, but because she has been wronged. This also makes Sev a counterpoint to Talos, because Talos's core beliefs were essentially delusion: even his own brothers told him the 'pure' wars he wanted to fight had never been in the Legion's history, but Talos was blind and insisted on seeing the best of what might be, and idolises the Night Haunter as that avatar of justice. There's even a quote where the Night Haunter says he cares nothing for what the Legion will become after his death, but Talos stands there, takes it, and worships his father for centuries after, despite that - a showing of the unbreakable faith most Space Marines have in their primarch and refusal to see the flaws of one's idols. Sev, however, isn't so lost in Gothic romanticism; he realises/believes the Legion deviated from its course the moment the Night Haunter entered the Legion's life, and he's slowly learning that the father that defended him, trained him, and loved him all these years is (he believes) actually the cancer eating away at the Legion's heart, and the fulcrum where it all went wrong. You see that embodied when he asks the Night Haunter if he tried any other methods of pacifying Nostramo, in that bitter argument between them. Altani is the very first time in his life that - at rock bottom, with nothing to lose and everything stripped away from him - he's able to follow a path of what he sees the Night Lords could have been. It took me a long time to think up and decide how to--" "lol ADB space marine girlfriends" "...um, right, but in half my books the human perspective characters are male, so--" "waifus" "Ah. Right. I... I see." (...and I just realised this a TBA thread, so with an apology for being off-topic I'll bounce out of here!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/40/#findComment-4520854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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