b1soul Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 He also rejected Mortarion's offer to join team Horus before that...so I don't think he was still seriously considering attacking Terra at that point Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314702-from-besties-to-indifferentresentful-russ-and-khan/page/2/#findComment-4195368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 He also rejected Mortarion's offer to join team Horus before that...so I don't think he was still seriously considering attacking Terra at that point If you read that again, Mortarion is not trying to get him to Join Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314702-from-besties-to-indifferentresentful-russ-and-khan/page/2/#findComment-4195387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 Well, if you read carefully (though to be fair, this is covered by the short story Grey Talon)...shortly after the "2nd Battle of Prospero" (between WS and DG), the Khan sends the likes of Hibou Khan (pro-Horus White Scar) to assist Shattered Legion survivors I get what you're saying...that the Khan might still wish to join Horus, he just doesn't appreciate any attempt to pressure him, especially an attempt by his legionaries. However, the fact that the Khan sends at least some of the "penitent" formerly pro-Horus White Scars to assist Shattered Legion survivors like Bion Henricos...that means the Khan is assisting loyalists shortly after the 2nd Battle of Prospero Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314702-from-besties-to-indifferentresentful-russ-and-khan/page/2/#findComment-4195396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Oh, I was not implying he would go traitor or think of it. I was just saying that the very act of violation in regards to the authority of the Khan was the motive. Above all, it wasn't that his legionnaires were for or against Horus, but that they abused of the freedom he had given them. He was very aware of the Lodges existing within his legion from the onset. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314702-from-besties-to-indifferentresentful-russ-and-khan/page/2/#findComment-4195407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 On that issue, I don't think the Khan would have come down that hard on Hasik and his pro-Horus faction had the Khan been pro-Horus or even 50/50. I think that after his return from Prospero, he was pretty sure he wouldn't be answering Horus' call. When he found out Hasik had been aligning his legion in favor of Horus (at that point, the opposite of his will), he flew into a rage Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314702-from-besties-to-indifferentresentful-russ-and-khan/page/2/#findComment-4195450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 As I am sure most of you know, the Mongols were not barbarians. They may have portrayed that image on the surface but they weren't. That's the reason for the retcon. Fulgrim (and possibly others) in Scars viewed the Khan's Legion as barbarians the same way Europeans did the Mongolians. I can see Khan being resentful of being lumped with the Wolves who embraced the Barbarian image. Ag good retcon IMO Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314702-from-besties-to-indifferentresentful-russ-and-khan/page/2/#findComment-4195455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 Yeah...but the Vikings weren't really barbarians either...they had a pretty sophisticated culture. But the Wolves probably spent more effort to act like stereotypical barbarians, so much so that even the WS considered them barbaric Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314702-from-besties-to-indifferentresentful-russ-and-khan/page/2/#findComment-4195745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 · Hidden by Brother-Chaplain Kage, October 14, 2015 - Off topic Hidden by Brother-Chaplain Kage, October 14, 2015 - Off topic Barbaric is en euphemism for cultures are see as inferior really, usually with pagan beliefs that lack modern sophistication which is totally a point of view type argument. So a culture that raids, crushes and pillages could be seen as barbaric regardless of it's cultural advances. Which the Mongols did plenty of, and so did the Vikings. They were not however as "low" on that scale as the Germanic tribes that sacked Rome, but they were not far off. The only difference is surviving record history that points to a refinement of the culture. But again we are in the Era of the politically correct, where no one as ever done anything wrong but the European white man, so make of that what you will Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314702-from-besties-to-indifferentresentful-russ-and-khan/page/2/#findComment-4195759
b1soul Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 · Hidden by Brother-Chaplain Kage, October 14, 2015 - Off topic Hidden by Brother-Chaplain Kage, October 14, 2015 - Off topic 19th century European Colonialism puts Mongol or Viking atrocities to shame Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314702-from-besties-to-indifferentresentful-russ-and-khan/page/2/#findComment-4195878
Memento Of Prospero Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 · Hidden by Brother-Chaplain Kage, October 14, 2015 - Off topic Hidden by Brother-Chaplain Kage, October 14, 2015 - Off topic 19th century European Colonialism puts Mongol or Viking atrocities to shame But we did it with style and free blankets ;) The only difference is that technology makes the job exponentially easier to perform. With the mindset Ghengis Khan or Attila the Hun had, I think we can safely say he would have gone just as far. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314702-from-besties-to-indifferentresentful-russ-and-khan/page/2/#findComment-4195882
Brother-Chaplain Kage Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I've hidden several posts that are getting into real world events and politics and this is the only warning not to do it again. Keep it civil and in the 30k universe or it's getting airlocked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314702-from-besties-to-indifferentresentful-russ-and-khan/page/2/#findComment-4196384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 We were keeping it pretty civil...although I admit we were hoing off on a tangent Anyhow...it's interesting that the WS view the SW as barbaric. On an objective scale, I'd say they are anout equal. Both have "quaint" cultural traditions Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314702-from-besties-to-indifferentresentful-russ-and-khan/page/2/#findComment-4196534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arac Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I don't wanna push the discussion away from it's original purpose but I like the discussion about "What would the Khan have done / did he do / will he do?". It made me think about it myself. I think it's pretty clear that when he began the journey to Prospero he is still pretty indecisive because he doesn't know who betrayed whom. But learning about some (more superficial) Details of the beginning civil war must have pushed him to one side or the other. When he left Prospero he knew: - That the Wolves didn't attack Prospero out of spite but because of an order (Emperors or Horus'). - Ergo the Wolves can't be the root of the civil war. - He doesn't exactly know which legions are on which side. Just that Horus (and at least Mortarion) is on one side and the emperor on the other. - He doesn't know about the chaos' influence of either side. For him the conflict is just a political one. Despite these Points I read that he is leaning towards being on the Emperors side. But why? Is it just because he doesn't agree with Horus' reasons for rebelling? Or because of his sense of duty towards the Emperor? //edit: I get that at this Point Mortarions motivations are not simply black or White / Emperor or Horus. But for the sake of Who against Who, Mortarion is against the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314702-from-besties-to-indifferentresentful-russ-and-khan/page/2/#findComment-4196553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I don't wanna push the discussion away from it's original purpose but I like the discussion about "What would the Khan have done / did he do / will he do?". It made me think about it myself. I think it's pretty clear that when he began the journey to Prospero he is still pretty indecisive because he doesn't know who betrayed whom. But learning about some (more superficial) Details of the beginning civil war must have pushed him to one side or the other. When he left Prospero he knew: - That the Wolves didn't attack Prospero out of spite but because of an order (Emperors or Horus'). - Ergo the Wolves can't be the root of the civil war. - He doesn't exactly know which legions are on which side. Just that Horus (and at least Mortarion) is on one side and the emperor on the other. - He doesn't know about the chaos' influence of either side. For him the conflict is just a political one. Despite these Points I read that he is leaning towards being on the Emperors side. But why? Is it just because he doesn't agree with Horus' reasons for rebelling? Or because of his sense of duty towards the Emperor? //edit: I get that at this Point Mortarions motivations are not simply black or White / Emperor or Horus. But for the sake of Who against Who, Mortarion is against the Emperor. Mortarion is against the Emperor because he thought Nikaea did not go far enough, he wanted the culling of all psykers. Having joined Horus because of this, he realises he made quite the blunder as things are getting worse in that regard. So when he goes and meets out the Khan, he is trying to keep that backdoor open to go on with his own plans. The Khan reads him like a book. When you know that individuals of dubious character and flawed thinking are drawn to a cause by deceit, it cannot end well - especially for someone as principle oriented as the Khan. Honour, Duty and Freedom are important values to him that this kind of rebellion seems to transgress in it's infancy. He might have been more sympathetic to Horus if he himself had come to him, exposing the retribution of the Wolves upon Prospero as an injustice towards the Thousand Sons. Alas, Horus failed in many regards when it comes to proper leadership. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314702-from-besties-to-indifferentresentful-russ-and-khan/page/2/#findComment-4196925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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