Signum, 2x Grav Cannon Devs & a Rhino

[PhilB]

Hey Everyone,

 

Had an interesting one come up on the weekend and would appreciate your thoughts.

 

Long story short, I had a small unit of Devastators with 2 grav cannons in a Rhino with the plan of popping the top hatch and shooting out from.

When I announced that one of the gravs would be hitting on 2s he asked why which lead to me reading out the rules for the signum from the codex.

After which he said the way it read sounded like the sarg would 'shoot' the signum at the target instead of a regular shooting attack, namely having the effect of using 1 of the vehicles firing ports meaning only 1 cannon could be shot in addition to the signum.

 

His logic was that the signum paints the target similar to a marker light.

 

I let it go because he was pushing the point pretty hard and I wanted him to win.

 

Interest to hear your thoughts on it though? It doesn't say in the rules that the sarg actually 'shoots' it but rather just uses it instead of a shooting attack. There's also no weapon profile for it too.

 

Thanks.

[jbaeza94]

I get where you guys are coming from on your side and his side. A thing to think about, don't you have to be elegible to make an attack to forgo an attack? But at the same time I feel it's like a blessing (I think that's what is called), so what are the rules on those while in a vehicle, I'm not familiar with them. Does a psyker have to use a firing port to use his abilities? I think they'll be a similar situation. Thanks for bringing this up, I've been considering this set up

[Lucien Eilam]

A signum is used "instead of shooting", meaning the model needs to be able to shoot before he can use it and the Sergeant would therefore have to be occupying one of the Fire Points.

[Xenith]

As Lucien said, you cannot use an "instead of shooting" attack, if you were not allowed to shoot. 

 

I game terms, the signum strapped to the sergeants back has to be sticking out the top to direct the fire of the other Dev.

[PhilB]

Lucky that was the first time I'd had grav devs in a Rhino I guess. Would have been playing that one wrong for a while.

Thanks.

[SnakeChisler]

As Lucien said, you cannot use an "instead of shooting" attack, if you were not allowed to shoot. 

 

I game terms, the signum strapped to the sergeants back has to be sticking out the top to direct the fire of the other Dev.

This is not true

 

Signum says "You can choose to use it instead of shooting"

 

Compare this to an Auspex which states "Target an enemy"

 

RAW

Use Signum instead of Shooting no LOS or Targeting required

Rhino has 2 firing ports and if a Sgt isn't targeting anything he doesn't use 1 of them

 

RAI (& Fluff)

A Signum is an advanced data feed supplying battlefield information as the Sgt uses it it provides blessings to the sacred machine spirit of the weapons, the Holy Grav Cannon is now blessed and will impart its wrath at BS5

 

 

There's nothing anywhere which states that you can't use it in a vehicle or that the Sgt is targeting anything if it did then he'd need LOS which he clearly doesn't

[Lucien Eilam]

It says "instead of shooting". If you can't shoot, you can't use it. To be able to shoot, he has to occupy a Fire Point.

 

LOS and targeting has nothing to do with anything.

[Jolemai]

... and yet a Techmarine is permitted to use Blessing of the Omnissiah inside a vehicle without Fire Points.

 

 

 

In each of your Shooting phases, instead of firing his weapons, a Techmarine can choose to repair a single friendly vehicle that he is in base contact with or embarked upon.

 

Yes the exception is written in but that doesn't mean you can have it both ways when there is a precedence set.

[Lucien Eilam]

Of course you can, because there's an exception written in. That's how exceptions work.

[SnakeChisler]

There's nothing in the BRB that says you use a Firing Port so I'm at a loss as to how you need one to stare at an Signum giving battlefield data?

[march10k]

Because if the signum's sensors aren't using a fire point, they're staring at the interior wall of the transport?

[librisrouge]

Because if the signum's sensors aren't using a fire point, they're staring at the interior wall of the transport?

I'd be totally fine with that interpretation...so long as the devs shoot their own transport too

[Berzul]

Think of it this way.

 

If you were shooting with a Lascannon or Missile Launcher at a target 48 inches away, the Sgt would not be able to shoot at them, because nothing in his arsenal could possible reach that far. Technically, if you are out of range with a weapon or model, that weapon cannot be fired, and the model itself cannot fire. It is not allowed to do a shooting attack at all.

 

Yet, the Sgt can still forgo his shooting, to give the blessing to another model in his squad.

 

Wouldn't that mean that being able to shoot or not is not essential?

[Father Mehman]

I've never seen it as the Sergeant needs to be able to shoot the guy that the marine wants to shoot at. Does that mean the Signum has a limit out to the Sergeant's weapon and then it can't do anything else? Ok, well the Sergeant has a pistol so I guess this Signum won't work for you, Lascannon-toting marine. That makes absolutely no sense in any form.

 

Also, two marines can fire out of the top hatch when riding in a Rhino. Excellent. A third can't pop his head up to see what's happening or use a Signum?

[Berzul]

Thats my point. You dont need to be in range, and you still use the signum if you arent.

 

Would that be an argument FOR the position of not needing to be able to fire?

[Father Mehman]

Berzul, I agree with you. Always have. Well, at least about this. I just wanted to beat a dead horse.

[Berzul]

Oh. Ok. *Hands over a powermaul*

 

Then lets go!!

 

*whack!!*

[shabbadoo]

Stupid rules writers, not thinking of every weird oddball thing that could possibly come up!

I see both sides, and I did start on the opposite side of where I ended up, but here are my thoughts. If GW wanted there to be no issue, ever, regarding the signum, it should have been given a shooting profile, such as:

Signum: Range: Infinite, Strength: - , AP: -, Special Rules: Target Acquisition

Target Acquistion: At the start of the Shooting phase, a model with a signum may choose to target an enemy unit, in which case the signum automatically hits. If he does so, one model in his unit becomes Ballistic Skill 5 for the remainder of the Shooting phase. Declare that the signum is being used before any rolls To Hit are made. Vehicles with the Flyer type that are Zooming, and units with the Flying Monstrous Creature or Flying Garganguan Creature types that are Swooping, cannot be targeted by a signum.

As a signum has no shooting profile, it is not literally required to follow any Shooting rules or conditions, such as taking up a fire point, needing LOS, etc., to be able to be used. This is ultimately the reason why I say the signum can be used even if the Sergeant is not occupying a Fire Point, or even has LOS to his unit's target...even though I think the signum should have a shooting profile like a Tau marker light does and so require all of those things. But a signum doesn't have such a profile, so it does not require any of those things at all.

[sneakybamsen]

Just my two cents on this. If it was used on the enemy unit, all fire would benefit from the signum, just like an Auspex confers a bonus to all shots on the target in that phase. It's only giving a bonus to one friendly model (so a buff essentially), hence not being put as a negative effect on the enemy. So no range/LOS needed, and no need for a fire-point in a rhino.

[march10k]

Yet...how does it function...does it provide extra brain cells or finer motor skills to the targeted friendly model?  No, it feeds targeting data.  So where does that data come from?  RAW, no LOS or range requirements exist...but RAI, it's totally up for debate.  Anyone who insist that there's no room for the other side to be right isn't thinking, he's wishing.

 

Here's a thought...a way for both sides to be satisfied...how about if the signum takes the visual feed from the firing model, processes it, and provides some sort of technical support, either projecting an aura around the target to make it easier/instinctive for the firer to track it on the move through fire and smoke, or provides some more direct support like calculating and adjusting for environmental effects (temperature, humidity, etc), as well as target vector and velocity, then projects a point of aim for the firer?  There, LOS needed, and hence a fire point, but not a separate one from the one the firer is using...

[Cypher 102]

By the letter of the rules there is no line of sight or range requirement for the signum to work.  The only requirement is that the sergeant not fire his weapon.

 

I have said many times you can use fluff to argue either side of a rule and is generally useless in a rules argument.  If you want a fluff explanation as to why the sergeant doesn't need to pop his head out of the fire point of a Rhino to use his signum here you go:

 

As you said he uses his bluetooth connection to his fellow marines targeting sensors and works his magic that way.

 

He hooks into the mobile WiFi hotspot from the Rhino and uses its sensors to guide a brother marines fire.

 

He turns on the X-Ray mode of the signum.

 

And last but not least . . . P.F.M.

[march10k]

Erm...I'd like to point out that, RAW being dead, "letter of the rules" is meaningless.    We're back to RAI, which is more ambiguous, but generally results in solutions that make sense, rather than cheese-mining for ways to break the rules legally.

[SnakeChisler]

40k is a weird amalgam of science & religion set in a future where hell itself is the portal to new star systems

 

The fluff round it it's getting feeds & info from the Cog boys and fusing weird science with battle tech to bless the holy Grav Cannon to smite the Emperors foes.

 

In terms of rules tho it's been like this for a number of editions if GW feel it's an issue they'll change it in the next one, the only reason everyone has bigged up on it is coz of the Grav 5 shot thing so no one is cheering anything, as has been said the Tech Marine doesn't need to get out the land raider to repair the tanks tracks when it's immobilised, Buffmander doesn't need LOS on all the suits split fire targets to ignore cover?

[Interrogator Stobz]

The Sgt could just poke it through another hatch that is not big enough to be considered a fire point (the ones the crew use spring to mind), jobs done. Failing that, he could plug in the computer part of his Signum and observe the battlefield through the targetting lenses of the heavy weapon or even the sensors of the vehicle itself.

I'd say allow two heavies and a signum based on what modern technology can achieve, but that is crazy talk both here in the BnC and in the 40k Ooniverse in general.

[Jolemai]

Signum rules:

 

 

 

At the start of the Shooting phase, a model with a signum can choose to use it instead of
shooting. If he does so, one model in his squad sets its Ballistic Skill to 5 for the remainder of
the Shooting phase. Declare that the signum is being used before any rolls To Hit are made.

 

I guess those of you who advent the use of a Fire Point for the Signum are also shooting with the Devastator Squad first in that phase? Squads fire at the same time and if this is in fact in lieu of shooting, you have already began firing with that squad and thus must complete the unit before moving on (less you loose the chance to use the signum or fire with anything else). Additionally, I hope you also follow that with multiple Devastator Squads you can only use one squad's signum (seeing as the phase is no longer at the start by the time you get to the second).