DWK vs DWCS

[Frater Cornelius]

I like Land Raiders. I like Termiantors. I like Ezekiel. Put them all together and you have a solid center-piece unit. However, what kind of Terminators?

 

DWK offer T5 to the unit and attacks at I4 with WS5. The DWCS only has T4 and potentially less Stormshields in the unit, but has the Banner and FnP as well as S8 AP2.

 

T5 vs T4 with FnP is an interesting topic. Against S4, both are roughly the same. Against anything less than S4, T5 wins over. Against S5-S7, T4 + FnP wins. Against T8 and higher, both are equal. Most guns are either S4 or higher, mostly S6 and S7. T4 with FnP wins. Then there are guns that ignore toughness, like Warp Spiders and Grav, where T4 and FnP wins.

 

On the offense, each guy in the CS gets 5 attacks on the charge (2 base, 1 from Ezekiel, 1 from the Banner and 1 from the Charge Bonus), but there is one less guy hitting due to having the Apothecary. The DWK do not have a banner, but one more guy hitting and WS5. DWK are definitely better at slicing infantry, but when you are faced with 2+ saves and tougher customers, the CS wins.

 

In terms of cost, 5 DWK cost 235pts. A CS with Apothecary, Banner, 1 Chainfist and 3 Stormhammers cost 260pts. The CS also has the option of taking a Champion, with means one less 3++, but AP2 on I4 with WS5. The Chainfist guy can also take an Assault Cannon to split fire at another target. This increases the cost 275pts.

 

Do you think the increased cost and slower attacks are worth the staying power and harder hits? Or are DWK the better choice when driving in the Ezekiel pimp mobile?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Depends on the opponents you face regularly. Do you need all the AP2? Do you face another of 2+ saves? If yes then DWCS is what you want, if not for 275 points you get more DWK, so more wounds and more attacks. If you are not sure of the answer then err in the side of caution, use DWCS because S8 AP2 is always a sure value.

[Frater Cornelius]

Regular opponents include everything from Grav spam Battle Companies to Eldar.

 

I would agree that DWCS is the safer choice if not for two things. First, they are only WS4. This means they need to tank more attacks and potentially hit less against units that are capable of defending themselves in melee. The next problem is that they only have 1 wound. Putting close to 300pts into a unit full of 1W models is just asking for one bad dice roll. I really like the GK Paladins and one reason is because they have 2W and WS5.

As much as I like FnP and the hitting power, I tend to look towards DWK for being cheaper and somewhat more reliable when hitting stuff. The unit has no tank, so engaging units like TWC or Paladins or any melee death star will always be risky.

[Knight Angels]

Regular opponents include everything from Grav spam Battle Companies to Eldar.

 

I would agree that DWCS is the safer choice if not for two things. First, they are only WS4. This means they need to tank more attacks and potentially hit less against units that are capable of defending themselves in melee. The next problem is that they only have 1 wound. Putting close to 300pts into a unit full of 1W models is just asking for one bad dice roll. I really like the GK Paladins and one reason is because they have 2W and WS5.

As much as I like FnP and the hitting power, I tend to look towards DWK for being cheaper and somewhat more reliable when hitting stuff. The unit has no tank, so engaging units like TWC or Paladins or any melee death star will always be risky.

 

As always... fight the shooters and shoot the fighters. Therefore i think DWK are the better choice.

[SnakeChisler]

Deathwing Knights for me, you also have to factor Ezekiel and how much more bang for your buck you get with +1 attack and the chance of Rage

 

2 attacks base +1 for the Charge +1 for the Book with a possible +1 for rage then there's the freebie Hammer of Wrath so each Knight has a potential 5 attacks all hitting on 3's and at initiative with 5 at S6 (+HOW)

 

Your looking at a unit that normally cleans house before your opponent even gets a look in

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Don't forget when Knights hit with Smite they hit at initiative so that helps a lot. Plus the whole unit doesn't have to smite so you have the potential of keeping a few attacks and having a few hard hitting. Those AP2 at initiative attacks on multiple models swings it for me.

[Frater Cornelius]

But just one attack per model. To be fair, Smite is pretty low on the list I find awesome about the DWK. If I needed S8 AP2 specifically, I wouldn't ask about it and just roll with TDA or DWCS.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I actually think that smite being one attack actually works in favor most of the times. That means that whatever doesn't die will be severely mangled and you spend a turn extra in CC without getting shot at. Next turn, another smite, problem solved and you're free on your turn to charge again.

[SvenONE]

I think Knights, after this new book, are the better choice for a TAC list.  But I also think that a DWCS is an awesome looking sight, so for fluff purposes I like fielding them, especially since Knights seem to only be deployed when there's FALLEN TO BE FOUND.

 

Note this is assuming you are going the landraider route, DWKs have a really hard time deepstriking/footslogging against good, mobile opponents who can just move away from them while they try and trudge through all sorts of terrain.

 

After all, 15 Attacks at WS5 will hit more than 15 attacks at WS4, and at I4.  Not to mention they can be 4 S8 attacks at WS3.  There was some groaning about the change to smite mode, but I think that the change is still better in the long run as it expands the flexibility between handling tougher MCs/CC targets and dealing with hordes effectively.  With the Knight Master now being AP2 and Fleshbane, it puts him in the running for the competition of a 1W duelist like the Champion considering they effectively cost about the same.  T5 shouldn't be underestimated either, until you've enjoyed taking 90+ shots from Ork boyz and not losing a single Knight you haven't lived!

 

Especially since your argument is that you're running Ezekiel as well, so you get to keep grenades AFTER you are out in the open and inevitably clean up whoever you are fighting.

[Frater Cornelius]

Grenades only count for the model instead of the unit since 7ed, but yes, I will run a Raider.

[SvenONE]

Grenades only count for the model instead of the unit since 7ed, but yes, I will run a Raider.

 

wow shows how little I mix terminators with power armor HQs.  I'm sure I've played that wrong somewhere but good to know.

[PhilB]

For me it comes down to if I'm taking them in a CAD or one of the DA formations.

Namely, Knights for a CAD & CS for a formation.

 

In a CAD I stuff Ezekiel and some Knights in a Landraider Crusader and slam them into something I want dead.

 

In a DWSF or DWRF, best case scenario you're CS is coming in turn 2 and charging turn 3, but even then I struggle to get a charge in half the time since they're so slow. Because of this I usually make the CS more shooty than melee heavy with an assault cannon (or cyclone)/chain fist, apothecary & champ ('cos the champ model is too nice to not include and if they do get charged he can accept on behalf of the apothecary and the auto-take support librarian I run with this unit). The 'shooty' CS with a Libby fielding Foe Smiter makes good use of the DWRF's overwatch too.

 

Went a bit off topic there with the shooty CS though. Basically I prefer the Knights over the melee CS. I think if you need Str 8 AP 2 to kill something then you probably don't want to be anywhere near that thing anyway, that job I'll leave to my grav-gun toting Ravenwing.

 

[march10k]

DWK for me...all of the reasons already mentioned (I've been dastardly enough on occasion to smite enemies who are perfectly vulnerable to S6AP3...for the express purpose of ensuring that I don't kill them off on the charge!  Then...on the enemy's turn, turn of smite, annihilate, and consolidate, ready for a fresh charge on my turn!), but there's another one...fleshbane...it's an incredible insurance policy against T8 garbage like wraithknights...NOTHING makes a tau player cringe more than fleshbane.  Most armies don't even have one fleshbane weapon per army, a few have a fleshbane relic or something...then there are the unforgiven...one per squad?!?  golly gee?!?!?!???  Yup...

[PhilB]

@Svenone, pretty sure the Knight Master's fail is AP3. From memory.

 

edit: Flail... not fail... oops.

[Loar]

I know this is a bit offtopic but what is the consensus on taking Ezekiel in a DWSF?  It says the only requirement is that the HQ must have the deathwing rule.  And under the special rules states that all units must be placed in deep strike reserve.  Does this mean Ezekiel can deep strike in even though he doesn't have the rule as a base, but granted by the formation?  This is probably an FAQ situation unless there has been a definitive ruling on this I missed. 

 

I ask because I really like both of these units and always thought a small DWSF that has a unit of both Knights and a CC outfitted DW Command Squad with Ezekiel could be a pretty deadly combo with a RWSF core.  You are trading points wise the land raider for both squads essentially, and with some ravenwing support could be a pretty strong combo.

[SvenONE]

@Svenone, pretty sure the Knight Master's fail is AP3. From memory.

 

edit: Flail... not fail... oops.

 

Geez I am flailing myself on these rules.  It's been too long since I even used DWKs since I've been pretty much Lion's Blading everything with a RWSS.  I'm wrong again.  I was getting the 2 from the Fleshbane.  Yeesh.

 

Either way DWKs still rule.

[JeffJedi]

If you smite do you lose the +1 attack on the charge with it?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Yes. Smite replaces any and every attack the model possesses for a single smite attack.

[Frater Cornelius]

Using Smite to prevent the combat from being overis actually quite clever. Unless they have Hit and Run, in which case goh rip them apart ASAP.

[Knight Angels]

Sidequestion:

 

If the DWK charges and every modell makes it in to CC, do you get T5 (while keeping the stormshield formation) plus hammer of wrath for each modell in that unit, although some of them are nor in direct basecontact because of the stormshield formation? Thanks...... Knights are awesome! :P

[Frater Cornelius]

Not sure I get the question. Both things are possible, HoW and T5. But you only get HoW if you end up in base contact with the enemy model. Any space between the bases and you do not get it.

[Knight Angels]

Well my english is bad, i know ^^

ok so normaly when you attack with 5 modells only 3 of them get h.o.w. because the other 2 have to keep up the stormshild formation. So if you want 5 modells hitting with h.o.w. you dont grant the T5 (cus they are not in the stormshield formation which gives you T5)

 

is that correct?

[SvenONE]

Well my english is bad, i know ^^

ok so normaly when you attack with 5 modells only 3 of them get h.o.w. because the other 2 have to keep up the stormshild formation. So if you want 5 modells hitting with h.o.w. you dont grant the T5 (cus they are not in the stormshield formation which gives you T5)

 

is that correct?

 

You'd get the HOW on all 5 if you're lucky enough to have all 5 lineup side by side and charge a target that's wide enough for basically 200mm of bases to make contact with.  In a straight line, the middle 3 should be getting +1 toughness, which in a squad of 5 model grants majority T5.  

 

That's kind of hard to pull off, 2-4 HOW depending on how large the squad is kind of the normal HOW hits you'll get.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well my english is bad, i know ^^

ok so normaly when you attack with 5 modells only 3 of them get h.o.w. because the other 2 have to keep up the stormshild formation. So if you want 5 modells hitting with h.o.w. you dont grant the T5 (cus they are not in the stormshield formation which gives you T5)

 

is that correct?

 

Not a problem, bud ;) I think I get it now. No, the two guys do not need to be behind to keep the T5. All you need is for 3 models to have T5. That way, the majority toughness becomes 5. This means that you can have all 5 in one line. This means that the two DWK on each side are T4 but the three DWK in the middle are T5, which means that the unit is T5. This way you can do 5 HoW attacks and keep majority toughness T5.

[Knight Angels]

So good news though ^^