Warsmith Manat-Yi Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I've never posted on B&C so bear with me if I'm making a fool of myself here, but I have a simple question. My local gaming community is prepping to start playing HH and is doing so by making an impromptu 'pact' to each build 1000pt 'combatant' lists. This is due to the relative inaccessability of the models in the states. If we all jump in at once it makes things easier. Unfotunately one thing I've noticed in the lists being built is the fairly common use of Land Raiders and similar variants to carry around some big scary kill-squad. That is fine with me but I was planning on running a wider spread of units at the beginning. So my question is how to best deal with these behemoths at a small points limit. Land Raiders aren't particularly terrifying at bigger points counts, but since we're starting small i'm struggling to come up with a solution. I've looked at lascannon spam or running rapier batteries with Laser Destroyers since melta will likely not be an option if they take ceramite plating. However none of these seem adaquate since you're relying on rolling sixes to pen. Meltabombs seem to be the most efficient option, but then you have to get into melee which exposes your infantry to the crazy kill-blob inside. Since there are some veteran HH gamers here I figured it'd be a good place to ask. Any thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Graviton either on speaders, dreadnoughts or rapiers is the path of least resistance at low points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Manat-Yi Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 My line of thought with the list I'm building is to use Ultramarines and the Logos Lectora to give them counter attack. Bait with a rhino or two full of tacs to make the fire drakes/gorgons/etc hop out of their Raider, let them kill the squad and then smack them with a support squad weilding plasma. However I'd rather just reliably pop the raider first. Graviton isn't bad but 36" is a bit short range to place safely on rapiers, and it'll take at least three to haywire it down in a turn. That will likely still be the route I take tho. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Sacrificing a scoring squad to a beatstick unit isnt an efficient use of them especially at low points. And, if theyre smart, the killy sqaud wont outright kill your tac squad. Also, counter-attack wont do jack vs a squad like that. Two dreadnoughts with 2 Grav guns in their fists in drop pods can drop in and nuke a land raider T1 id you have 3 DPA capable units in your list. Also if you werent playing ultramarines you could use Alpha Legion or Raven Guard to infiltrate the Rapiers. Also, dont even attempt the Logos at 1k. Not enough points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Manat-Yi Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 Right. I'm looking into it. I was trying to avoid pod-spam as thats been my go-to in 40k since 5th edition, but that does seem fairly strong still. I like the speeder squadron as a cheap alternative tho. Something like: Delegatus kitted for close combat and for MotL Master of Signal 2x Tacs, Rhino, CCW 1x Support, rhino, plasmaguns 2x Speeders, Graviton/Volkite If that doesn't work out I'd just say F it and try tropping contemptors, but that feels like too much points to expend just incase I come across a Raider. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Why are you taking a Delegatus? What purpose does he fill? If its to take a RoW, which is 100% the case, which one? Since if you're taking a RoW, like the Logos, That Requires 3 Troops Choices, you're list would be illegal since Tac Support Squads are not compulsory Selections. If you're using the Delegatus' Chosen Duty, you'd get more Mileage out of Tac Vets Squads vs Regular Tacs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven6826 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 All armor is weak against assualt... Well, weaker than in past. Drop podded Dreads as mentioned are a good solution, id consider jump packed assualt squads with melta bombs (be they vanilla, veteran or uber elites) as a back up. ... Basic jump assult marines are cheap anough to be sacrificial. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Manat-Yi Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 Well in this instance we are using the Zone Mortalis: Combatant detachment for building our lists so most of our points aren't wasted on a minimum 2 troops. Normally we'd be using the Age of Darkness rules set however. It is just that at 1000pts it is difficult to field enough compulsary troops. If we'd agreed on AoD lists then I wouldn't be having this problem with land raiders in the first place I don't think. But yes, I may end up running Chosen Duty and Vet-tacs for this build. It would be a bit more difficult to run them as two ten-man teams with the points alotted and I was planning on using weight-of-fire to counteract some of these more silly elite units I'm seeing my friends nutting over. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 This is an old topic that I made but it might help you a bit : http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303510-the-delegatus-30k-lists-for-smaller-games-and-starters/?hl=delegatus Hasn't been updated in a while though :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Vindicator with Laser Destroyer is a reliable way of doing damage and is relatively inexpensive pointswise. Jetbikes or assault marines with melta bombs are reliable too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Manat-Yi Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 This is an old topic that I made but it might help you a bit : http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303510-the-delegatus-30k-lists-for-smaller-games-and-starters/?hl=delegatus Hasn't been updated in a while though Oh yeah this definitely helps out. Most of my group is running a praetor with some elite kill-squad in a form of Land Raider, with a small troop unit for the compulsory. I figured the delegatus would be a perfect fit for these points myself. I'm still not so sure about the Chosen Duty tho. I can't find the exact rules for it anywhere. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Manat-Yi Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 Vindicator with Laser Destroyer is a reliable way of doing damage and is relatively inexpensive pointswise. Jetbikes or assault marines with melta bombs are reliable too. As I said I'm trying to shy away from meltabombs in this case, since I'd be effectively sacrificing the unit to the crazy kill-squad inside the enemy Land Raider. Something I'd like to avoid. As for the vindicator, a couple rapiers with LDs seem far more cost effective for the same task, but still wouldn't be enough. Fishing for sixes on single shot weapons isn't a reliable option even with ordinance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven6826 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Even at a 1000 pts you will have to choose units to die, bro... In 40k 80% casualties with all objectives held is a win. Two five man assault squads are going to be the last units your opponant tries to vape... A vindicator will be one of the first. I'm not saying a rock hard armored killbot isn't the way to go (id say a drop podded dread or two is still best choice)... But have a back up you can afford. Assualt marines make good March blockers is you don't need em for kamikazi anti tank duty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Manat-Yi Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 I believe that assault squads in 30k have a minimum of ten in the squad right? I do agree that they're probably the most effective units I've seen against 14 armor, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to sacrifice them to the blob of Red Butchers hiding inside. Ideally I'd like to be able to shoot at the unit inside the Raider before they got the assault off and became stuck in combat. So at the moment my theoretical list is as follows: Delegatus w/ legatine axe/power fist, artificer armor, combat shield, Chosen Duty Veterans x10 w/ rhino, x2 volkite Veterans x10 w/ rhino, x2 volkite Support x5 w/ rhino, plasma Speeder w/ Graviton, volkite Speeder w/ Graviton, volkite Not sure about the volkite chargers on the vets, or which special rule to give them. If I had more points I'd love to run missile launchers and tank hunters, but that is far too expensive. Web'd heavy bolters are pretty kickass however. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raktra Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Personally I enjoy using Sicarans for... Well, everything, but they can still kill of Raiders happily. What's your Legion, anyway? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Vindicator with Laser Destroyer is a reliable way of doing damage and is relatively inexpensive pointswise. Jetbikes or assault marines with melta bombs are reliable too. As I said I'm trying to shy away from meltabombs in this case, since I'd be effectively sacrificing the unit to the crazy kill-squad inside the enemy Land Raider. Something I'd like to avoid. As for the vindicator, a couple rapiers with LDs seem far more cost effective for the same task, but still wouldn't be enough. Fishing for sixes on single shot weapons isn't a reliable option even with ordinance. If your opponent has a 'crazy-kill unit' inside a Land Raider at 1000 points that you then don't have the comparative troops to countercharge and handle, simply outmaneuver him and win the game that way. But any army sinking lots of points into a single unit in that points level isn't really scary at all in my experience. We've had a few 1250 point 30k mini tournies here in Australia where the scene is quite large and deathstar armies generally fail. Either spam down AV14 with sunder shots (quad mortars, Deredeo) haywire spam (Graviton Rapiers, Dreadnoughts with 2x Graviton) or melta bombs (which remain an excellent choice, frankly). If you're not using melta bombs or haywire, you're going to be fishing for 6's no matter what...so go for weight of fire. Keep in mind with the Vindicator you can overcharge for 3 shots at less points than the rapiers, but I'd be more inclined to go quad mortars anyway. Looking at your list, those speeders probably won't be enough (unless you didn't list the rapiers there as well)? I haven't mentioned a Venator because it doesn't really shine till higher points values, but that will give you 2 strength 10 ordnance shots on a fast moving platform. Always an option. EDIT: By the way, don't go for a Delegatus. I'm a big opponent of these. A Delegatus is 75, a Praetor is 100. For those 25 points, you get... 2+ armour save (10 pts extra for the Delegatus) +1 WS +1 LD +1 Wound +1 Attack All the Delegatus gives you is Veterans as troops in a slightly different POTL, where you concede an extra VP for losing the warlord instead of the Veterans. I still cannot see why anybody would want to take a Delegatus when a Praetor is just so much better for the points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Manat-Yi Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 Personally I enjoy using Sicarans for... Well, everything, but they can still kill of Raiders happily. What's your Legion, anyway? I was thinking Ultramarines but that choice is largely fueled by how much I like the Praetorian armor they wear. Vindicator with Laser Destroyer is a reliable way of doing damage and is relatively inexpensive pointswise. Jetbikes or assault marines with melta bombs are reliable too. As I said I'm trying to shy away from meltabombs in this case, since I'd be effectively sacrificing the unit to the crazy kill-squad inside the enemy Land Raider. Something I'd like to avoid. As for the vindicator, a couple rapiers with LDs seem far more cost effective for the same task, but still wouldn't be enough. Fishing for sixes on single shot weapons isn't a reliable option even with ordinance. If your opponent has a 'crazy-kill unit' inside a Land Raider at 1000 points that you then don't have the comparative troops to countercharge and handle, simply outmaneuver him and win the game that way. But any army sinking lots of points into a single unit in that points level isn't really scary at all in my experience. We've had a few 1250 point 30k mini tournies here in Australia where the scene is quite large and deathstar armies generally fail. Either spam down AV14 with sunder shots (quad mortars, Deredeo) haywire spam (Graviton Rapiers, Dreadnoughts with 2x Graviton) or melta bombs (which remain an excellent choice, frankly). If you're not using melta bombs or haywire, you're going to be fishing for 6's no matter what...so go for weight of fire. Keep in mind with the Vindicator you can overcharge for 3 shots at less points than the rapiers, but I'd be more inclined to go quad mortars anyway. Looking at your list, those speeders probably won't be enough (unless you didn't list the rapiers there as well)? I haven't mentioned a Venator because it doesn't really shine till higher points values, but that will give you 2 strength 10 ordnance shots on a fast moving platform. Always an option. EDIT: By the way, don't go for a Delegatus. I'm a big opponent of these. A Delegatus is 75, a Praetor is 100. For those 25 points, you get... 2+ armour save (10 pts extra for the Delegatus) +1 WS +1 LD +1 Wound +1 Attack All the Delegatus gives you is Veterans as troops in a slightly different POTL, where you concede an extra VP for losing the warlord instead of the Veterans. I still cannot see why anybody would want to take a Delegatus when a Praetor is just so much better for the points. Oh yeah, I'm definitely not afraid of losing games against a deathstar at 1000pts, but having an option to crunch it without a massive points investment can't hurt. In a game this small that raider WILL eventually catch up to one or more of my units, and if he goes after my HQ I run the risk of getting pinned from my XIII Legion's rules. Nobody wants that. So far I'm liking the graviton weapon option for the haywire the most. I don't feel too bad about losing a 75pt unit to the Raider's Lascannons, and it is much more mobile than a rapier for the same cost(even with the volkite on the speeders). As for the Delegatus, I definitely agree with you on the points difference not quite being there, but 25pts is actually still quite a lot for 1000pt lists. In larger games I'd definitely run a Praetor, but I have no real need for the extra stats for the list i'm running. I effectively shaved off 15pts for one less wound. The other stats aren't that relevant since I'm not running him to dominate melee anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 You're forgetting the increased risk posed by a Delegatus in an Ultramarines detachment. Ultramarines give up an extra VP when all HQ's are lost, and the Delegatus gives an extra victory point when killed, so you're going to risk a 3VP loss if/when your general goes down. That is a very big target sign on a single model. If you value your 25 points that much that's fine, but HQ's will often need to fight in games this small and with access to AP2 at initiative (Legatine axe) you shouldn't shy away from it IMO. Relying solely on 2x graviton shots also will probably not result in the LR being killed before it is among your lines. If he gets first turn and pops a speeder or 2, sure the net points lost is insignificant but you then have literally no hope of ever killing the Land Raider. 2x Haywire shots won't deal with AV, and after/if they die you don't have a single melta bomb and only a handful of plasma guns as your only AV. You're going to need at least 4 haywire shots, likely 5 - that won't happen before it delivers its unit into your army, and it has the advantage of firepower able to crack open rhinos with ease. Not to mention that he might tanks other than a Land Raider, or a Dreadnought or something...take melta bombs on your units, at the very least. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Manat-Yi Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 Well I didn't know about the VP issue. I use battlescribe and it doesn't detail much of the special rules related to the Delegatus. So that being said i'm going to try something more versatile: Ultramarines Legion Pride 1000 Praetor, Legatine Axe, Power Fist, Pride of the Legion Veterans x10, Rhino, Meltabombs Veterans x10, Rhino, Meltabombs Support x5, Rhino, Plasmaguns Land Speeder, Graviton Land Speeder, Graviton. The land speeders aren't set in stone however. They are definitely the cheapest source of ranged, non-melta tank hate as far as I can tell. This way I don't feel too hurt if I lose the speeders, but the vets can still crack the raider in melee if necessary. Not ideal but It'll definitely kill the raider. 25pts for ten bombs seems like a steal. Alternatively I am thinking of dropping the speeders completely and running either a contemptor or another melee HQ for the second vet squad. An extra Centurion would make it harder to force that army-wide pinning on me after all. Also, any recommendations for which special rule to give the vets? Fearless seems like the easiest choice, but furious charge is always nice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 If you're running a Preator, Paragon Blade trumps every option every time. The Instant Death on a 6 and being a Power Axe At initiative makes it his strongest weapon option. If you need to deal with Av too, give him a Melta Bomb. A Legatine Axes Auto-wound on a 6 wont mean much if the other Preator with a Paragon Blade rolls a 6 Himself and just gibs yours out. It also means that you wouldn't have been able to swing with the Power Fist for Instant Death. Sure, you're not getting +1A for having 2 Specialist Weapons but you're keeping the Kill Potential Up there with the option to deal with AV if necessary. It also comes out Cheaper. Another Thing to consider is that, relying on Tank Hunter Vets to charge out of a Rhino to kill a Land Raider isnt the best...You'd be better off only using 1 Tank Hunter Squad in a Dreadclaw to perform this task since you can drop it in safely and Flat out into position, next turn Move 6", Disembark 6" and Charge Average 7" to Obliterate a Land Raider. Consider: +++ TAC 1k (1000pts) +++ ++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) (1000pts) ++ + HQ (180pts) + Legion Praetor (180pts) [Artificer Armour, Iron Halo, Melta Bombs, Paragon Blade, Space Marine Bike with Twin-linked Bolter] ··Master of the Legion [Pride of the Legion] + Troops (530pts) + Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (305pts) [Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, 2x Missile Launcher and Suspensor Web, Sniper] ··Legion Veteran Sergeant [Artificer Armour] Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (225pts) [9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Melta Bombs, Tank Hunters] + Fast Attack (290pts) + Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod (100pts) Legion Outrider Squad (190pts) [3x Legion Space Marine Outrider, Melta Bombs, Power Weapon, Twin-linked Plasma Gun] I'm Horrendously Tired as I make this but things of note: You've got a More or less Guaranteed 'Dead Tank' Unit that has pretty high odds of doing their job, markedly higher than a Rhino-Embarked unit. A Sniper Vet Squad to Deal Damage at Range. Vexilla is there to re-roll failed Morale and the Sarge has Artificer Armor to Tank Any non-Ap2 Shot. You've got a 2+/4++ T5 HQ on a Bike meaning that he cant get ID'd by S8/9, has good Mobility and can dish out the pain. He, obviously, goes along with the Outrider Squad who, while not having the Fire Power of 5 Plasma Gun Marines, are more likely to deal their damage and less likely to die due to Gets Hot! Thanks to twin-linked. Or, conversely on the Outrider Squad, you could Swap the TL Plasma Guns for TL Melta Guns. The Outriders also have a Hidden Power Weapon for a bit more CC Bite and Melta Bombs as insurance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I wouldn't give the vets furious charge if they're in a rhino, a savvy player simply won't let them get a charge off. Sniper is very good (particularly if you play against Mechanicum), as is outflank situationally. Fearless probably isn't worth it unless you're coming up against a fear-bombing Night Lord army at higher points levels. Slipstreams mentioned tank hunters above. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Armorbane + Tank Hunters on S8 Ap1 x10 Guaranteed Slag if applied correctly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheesh Mode Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Consider the following: Primaris Lightning Strike Fighter with Kraken Penatrator Missiles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196503 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Manat-Yi Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 Oh yeah I completely forgot tank hunters stacked with armorbane. It almost seems overkill at that point. I like the list you suggested but I think I'll hold off on the smaller bike blob. I'd rather have the Praetor attached to one of the vet squads, and keep the support squad. I did some playtesting today with one of those earlier lists against my friend's prototype salamanders. Land raider survived the grav, drakes charged one of my tac squads and killed it dead. Support plasma polished them off nice and neat. Delegatus dying actually meant that he won that game tho lol. So Praetor is definitely the way to go. As for the bomb vets in the drop pod you suggested, I'm not sure how that plays out. When you deepstrike in, you can still flat out in the same turn? That seems imbalanced I'm surprised it works that way. That being said: awesome! That gives me a potent armor cracking blob without sacrificing the original build I was planning on running from the start. Something like: Ultramarines 1000pts Praetor, Paragon Blade, Powerfist, Pride of the Legion Vets x10, meltabombs, Tank Hunters Vets x10, Missile Launchers with Suspensor Web x2, Sniper(or tank hunters), Rhino Support x5, Plasma Guns, Rhino The points are less spread than the list I fielded today that graviton rapiers. I ran the Logos Lectora just to test it out and the counter attack rule ended up saving my ass but it definitely seems weak compared to other legion-specific rites. Consider the following: Primaris Lightning Strike Fighter with Kraken Penatrator Missiles. Cool unit but two one-off missiles without twinlink to assure they hit seems like a massive waste. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 You can have up to six missiles on the Primaris Lightning. Ground tracking for BS5 and Servitor for Tank Hunter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314871-how-to-deal-with-land-raiders-at-1000pts/#findComment-4196510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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