GreyCrow Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Hello guys ! Pretty new to the Heresy here, but I'd love to get your help to understand how the Legions are organized (and therefore how the army lists entries fit into this scheme :) ). I'm reading with great detail the organigram in Betrayal (the scope is definitely muuuuch larger than post-Codex Astartes Chapters :p ), but I'm trying to figure out how companies and assets fit together. First of all, which role is the Praetor supposed to represent ? Is it a the Chapter level ? Batallion level ? Company level ? I'm confused by some examples within the Horus Heresy books, where Abaddon is listed as First Captain (but he doesn't seem to command more than a company). Centurions and Consuls seem to be at the company command level, with Consuls being more specialized officers. Then, when a company is broken down, we see 6 Tactical Squads and 3 Support squads, with a box with Company Assets. From that I can infer that the "Troops" section of the army list represents the units that are part of the company. Where I'm at a loss is where the specialist squads (Veterans, Seekers, Heavy Support, etc) fit within the structure of the Legion ? Do they exist out of the structure ? Are they part of specialized companies ? Does it depend on the Legion ? Thanks a lot ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315057-organization-of-the-legiones-astartes-companies-help/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Praetors are meant to represent the 'Chapter Command (Lord Commander)' level, rather than Company level. Abaddon is an example of a commander who, while he is nominally the Captain of the First Company, in practice leads much of the Legion in his Primarch's absence and has multiple Captains under him as part of his role. If you look to the side of the graphic on Page 31 of Betrayal, it says that Company assets include 'assigned Veteran or Specialist squads'. That's your Veterans etc. Also, keep in mind that many Legions have vastly differing structures too. The Sons of Horus don't care too much for organisation past the company level, whereas the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists have rigid organisation. The Word Bearers prefer to have companies/chapters that are highly specialised, whereas other Legions prefer 'all-comer' makeups for their companies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315057-organization-of-the-legiones-astartes-companies-help/#findComment-4200606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 I understand that they are assigned to, but where do they come from originally ? Are there some kind of "Heavy Support Cadres" within the Legion, on a side organigram from the Companies ? Or did the Commanders decide "Well, the 3rd Company will be assigned Heavy Support Squads to specialize it" and the heavy support squads were now members of the company :p I get your points about the Praetors and Captains however. Nominally they have a rank, but due to circumstances/personnality/idosyncrasies, it warrants the rule "Master of the Legion". I understand that they're a big part of the gameplay, but isn't fielding a Praetor in games of 2000-2500 points excessive ? Would a Praetor personally lead about 50 Legionnaires in battle ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315057-organization-of-the-legiones-astartes-companies-help/#findComment-4200621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 The Praetor can represent anyone you want him to. A Captain of a Company can be represented by a Praetor, especially since most all Lord Commanders (or similar rank) are named characters established in the lore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315057-organization-of-the-legiones-astartes-companies-help/#findComment-4200623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Remember, each Legion deviated from the base organization you are referencing, to at least some degree. So a lot of these seeming contradictions are actually each Legion's individual character coming to the fore. For instance, Abaddon is a Captain, of a Company. But his Company, the First Company, has two squad types, the Justaerins and the Catulan Reavers, each of which are commanded by Captains under Abaddon. In the Sons of Horus, they don't have lasting Chapters, just Companies which can often be oversized, with squads commanded by junior level Captains. The closest to Chapters they get are temporary groupings of Companies under a senior commander, of which Abaddon and the Mournival are supreme. These Captains are effectively Praetors/Lord Commanders in the eyes of the Legion, but their authority is limited to those actions where such grouping is done. As for your specific question, my assumption is that it is within the Company/Chapter, or the Legion equivalent. Legions were massive enough that there was less of the concentration of veteran/specialized troops as you see in Codex-based Chapters, and what concentration there was still left plenty of room for each Company/Chapter to have their own collection of veteran or specialized troops, in any number of forms or numbers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315057-organization-of-the-legiones-astartes-companies-help/#findComment-4200626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 I understand that they are assigned to, but where do they come from originally ? Are there some kind of "Heavy Support Cadres" within the Legion, on a side organigram from the Companies ? Or did the Commanders decide "Well, the 3rd Company will be assigned Heavy Support Squads to specialize it" and the heavy support squads were now members of the company I get your points about the Praetors and Captains however. Nominally they have a rank, but due to circumstances/personnality/idosyncrasies, it warrants the rule "Master of the Legion". I understand that they're a big part of the gameplay, but isn't fielding a Praetor in games of 2000-2500 points excessive ? Would a Praetor personally lead about 50 Legionnaires in battle ? Would a Primarch lead a force of 2000 points into battle, realistically? No, mostly not, actions where Primarchs take to the field themselves would usually be huge (particularly someone like Horus in his role as Warmaster). The tabletop doesn't perfectly reflect the scale of the lore, you'd have to play epic for that. Praetor is a generic statline that represents the most important/powerful leaders of a Legion. Compare that to the statline of the most important Legion figures (e.g. Eidolon, Abaddon) and they all have Praetor-level statlines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315057-organization-of-the-legiones-astartes-companies-help/#findComment-4200669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 I typically see most tabletop battles being a minutelong snapshot of a particular battle. The most important engagements etc, such as the charge of a Primarch with their specialised troops for a particular task, or the taking down of a Titan or a Knight Lance, or the critical part of a battle when after hours of fighting against a defence line the enemy have to be fought back. This helps get around the situation of having only 100 men on the field on both sides, with Primarchs and a trio of the heaviest assault units representing the top 1% of a legions martial capacity without a sign of the other majority of a legions build up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315057-organization-of-the-legiones-astartes-companies-help/#findComment-4200918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 The way Laurie G explained it is that by the of the GC there was no fixed size for the company as per the chart in Betrayal. Instead every company is led by a commander who have a handful of lieutenants, bodyguards, chosen squads etc that they personally lead under the command of the over-captain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315057-organization-of-the-legiones-astartes-companies-help/#findComment-4200927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 I had this explained to me in depth at last years HH weekender so I'll try and dredge up as much as I can remember from that conversation. Praetors - These guys are basically a part of Legion high command - whether that be a formal sense like you'd get with the XIII Legion Tetrarchy, or simply men recognized as senior officers both within and without the Legion. Some Legions have specially designated ranks and titles such as Chapter Master/Lord Commander/Jarl/Warsmith whilst others such as the SoH/NL/TS kept it to a simple Captain and let the seniority already established speak for itself. The other thing that sets them apart is the Master of the Legion rule, it's there to represent that absent a Primarch, these guys will command a significant portion of the Legion's strength if required and whilst companies in the vast majority of Legions had the full spectrum of warfare covered, they had the the authority to draw upon specialist elements found elsewhere if they desire. Centurions - This is to cover the broad spectrum of the higher (Legion Champion/Forge Lord) to lower (Vigilators/Moritats) officer cadre of the Legion. a Legion 100,000 strong (or more) will require a significant command structure to maintain discipline so a barebones centurion likely equates to a company captain or in the cases of some Legions, a captain serving under one more senior. Each Legion comes into play differently with this, such as the SoH and the fact Abaddon had two captains directly underneath him despite being a captain's rank himself. For the squad composition of each Company, outside of the instances of specifically described examples (two that best fit this being the SoH and Night Lords 1st Companies being subdivided between the Justaerin/Catalun Reavers and Atramentar/Raptors) then you pretty much have Carte Blanche. Whilst it's true that some companies/chapters/battalions etc developed specializations or a predilection for a particular facet of warfare over the course of the great crusade, each (theoretically) had access to everything that's in the crusade army list. And in less regimented Legions company sized fluctuated wildly. From a hundred or so up to scores of thousands. Veteran squads wouldn't really be drawn from a separate pool of warriors - in all likelihood they're the most senior within the company itself. Thinking about it, the only elements of a force that would probably be drawn from outside of the company would be highly specialized like destroyers and some of the Legion specific elite like Palatine Blades or Pyroclasts. Maybe the super heavy or artillery tanks would be the same too if a Legion had a formation dedicated to that mien (like the IV Legion Stor Bezzak) Hope that helps :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315057-organization-of-the-legiones-astartes-companies-help/#findComment-4200952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malios Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 I have to agree with the earlier posts about every legion being different in structure. None really follow any template so to speak: this is what gives the legions their character and is, ironically, the reason why the Codex Astartes came to be. We know the framework of the XIII Legion structure quite well from the explanations in Know no Fear and subsequent novels: 1000 marines formed a company that was led by a Captain and a First Sergeant. 10 Companies then formed a chapter that was led by a chapter master. Above these chapter masters were 4 tetrarchs who then answered directly to the Primarch. But, the internal structures of the companies and chapters is left up to interpretation. The Ultramarines were known for adherence to doctrine so one could argue that their companies adhered to some form of standard pattern or load out, but their theoretical vs practical mindset (especially on Calth and during the shadow crusade) also made them highly adaptive in the battle space which throws that theory into question. In this case, it could be appropriate to substitute a Praetor for a Captain of an Ultramarine Company (Captain Ventanus has the stats of a praetor anyway), or depending on your army theme a Chapter Master or Tetrarch. Then you have the White Scars on the opposite end of the spectrum who inherited their nomadic, tribal traditions from Chogoris and formed Brotherhoods. These Brotherhoods were led by a Khan (who would be your Praetor equivalent) and shared very little resemblance to their fellow brotherhoods, particularly because it was not uncommon for the brotherhoods to operate independently for long periods away from the Legion. Each brotherhood as a result had their own traditions, heraldry, tactics, support staff and even levels of loyalty to other legions and fellow brotherhoods. Scars and Brotherhood of the Storm are great sources for further information on this. The list sadly goes on. The Wolves of Fenris had their own unique structure which highly differed from the nine brotherhoods of the Thousand Sons. Even the Legions that adhered to similar structures were highly different from one another: a Dark Angels Chapter was very different to an Emperor's Children Company etc etc. I think no author has really delved too deeply into this subject in order to maintain hobbyist creativity: this is not necessarily a bad thing in my mind. It gives us as hobbyists enough information to create a theme, but have the freedom to shape that theme into our own image. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315057-organization-of-the-legiones-astartes-companies-help/#findComment-4202732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionary Pallas Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 We know the framework of the XIII Legion structure quite well from the explanations in Know no Fear and subsequent novels: 1000 marines formed a company that was led by a Captain and a First Sergeant. 10 Companies then formed a chapter that was led by a chapter master. Above these chapter masters were 4 tetrarchs who then answered directly to the Primarch. But, the internal structures of the companies and chapters is left up to interpretation. The Ultramarines were known for adherence to doctrine so one could argue that their companies adhered to some form of standard pattern or load out, but their theoretical vs practical mindset (especially on Calth and during the shadow crusade) also made them highly adaptive in the battle space which throws that theory into question. In this case, it could be appropriate to substitute a Praetor for a Captain of an Ultramarine Company (Captain Ventanus has the stats of a praetor anyway), or depending on your army theme a Chapter Master or Tetrarch. So an Ultramarine Chapter would contain 10,000 Astartes? That somewhat justifies the Codex Astartes organisation. Just divide by 10. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315057-organization-of-the-legiones-astartes-companies-help/#findComment-4203143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 The Codex Astartes Chapter organization is the Terran standard, just with a change of the two batallions from distinctive forces to Active and Reserve. The Ultramarines' multiplication by ten is their only real deviation from that Terran standard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315057-organization-of-the-legiones-astartes-companies-help/#findComment-4203189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 That makes sense fellows, thanks ! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315057-organization-of-the-legiones-astartes-companies-help/#findComment-4208196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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