Prot's Ultra CAD vs Tau: The Final Experiment

[Prot]

Here we go with 1850, but this is a very strange batrep.

Continuing with my series and trying to finish this series up, my goal was to have a few games against nearly the same opponent, in a similar scenario, on a somewhat similar table.

So I decided to go way back to the beginning, to a CAD. If you've just started reading this, then let me explain that this series has covered a pile of games, and about a third of them have been recorded in these forums. The experiment was with CAD, then Demi Co Gladius (using all reasonable Auxiliaries) and then full Battle Co and two distinctly different styles of Battle Co. One Battle Co had a fair amount of elite units, the second was mostly made to maximize 'free' stuff and bodies.

Towards the end of this particular experiment I used my Grey Knights against this Tau opponent to get a feel of how 'good/bad' GK were in comparison to the shiny new Codex Astartes.

So here we are... the finale. I have to say it has been a while since I played a straight up Grav-based CAD. It's so different in build, and in playstyle, because you go from gobs of marines (many of which are vanilla) and lots of ObSec vs the CAD's "cherry picking" mechanics and a much smaller model count. Without forced taxes, here's how my list looked as a CAD:

1 Biker Captain, Auspex, Shield Eternal, Thunder Hammer joining a command squad:

5 bikers, Apothecary, 3 Gravguns.

5 Tacticals, melta/combi-melta, Drop Pod.

5 Sniper Scouts.

5 CC scouts + Scout Speeder.

5 Grav Centurions with nipple bolters in a Fast Attack Drop Pod

5 Devastators, 3 Grav Cannons in a Drop Pod (joined by...)

LibCon starring Tigurius (Warlord - gives nipple shots rending), 2 Libbies.

2 x Stormtalons, Twin Assault Canons, Skyhammer Missiles.

1 squad of 3 x Thunderfire Cannons

1 Aegis with Icarus Lascannon.

Sorry but this is how it looked..... I hate proxying but most of my bike stuff is Dark Angels so it was heavily proxied, as well I only own 2 Thunderfires, so proxied those as well.

+ Prot's Proxied Ultra CAD! Will it be the equal to the famed Battle Company Gladius? Or will it fall short without with the Freebies? Does quality beat quantity? +

- This will be a super short batrep. I hate to throw spoilers out so I won't you can read on.....

GAME 1:

- We choose Maelstrom as usual. I lose the roll to go first (I don't think in my last 5 games I've gone first...) Which is fine. I actually really like seeing where he is deploying considering it's that Janky Tau.

- He chooses his corner (we are playing corner to corner) and he deploys fairly castled.

- We had a debate over our last couple of games where I played a battle co and my grey Knights. My side of the story is I think he holds far too much in reserves without having a mechanism like an Aegis with comms in play. I think it's silly.... but he actually decides this game to deploy more stuff, but he still holds back 2 suit squads, and his Farsight enclave HQ squad.

- I actually steal turn 1, and immediately decide to go for the jugular. I remember Interceptor, and try to deploy accordingly.

It looked something like this:

+Roasted Tuna anyone? The fish are castled up as usual... suits all over, and the Riptide hides in the ruins beside a tank and the Pathfinders in ruins. +

- I declare the Devastator Doctrine. Both heavy choices come in. The LibCon is activating a 4+ Invuln, and removing cover from a squad via Divination.

- My bikes zoom up, and I get to blast away at the suits on the hill causing them to be deleted netting me firstblood. I actually forget to use my Auspex here, but dead is dead.

- I have to maneuver for some Objective points using Scouts in the Speeder, and end up Turbo'ing to get some points. The sniper scouts wack a few guys but don't get them to break.

- The Riptide is blown apart. Tigurus gives his warlord trait to them and they get him with Gravcannons and nipple rending. The other squad of grav's in the Dev squad take care of another suit squad.

- the Thunderfires fire up big time. With 12 templates it is a pile of strength 6 hits demolishing another pathfinder squad.

- At the end of the turn it looks VERY grim for the Tau. I offer him a chance to just restart, but he wants to continue.

- he has 2 squads come in. They do some good casualty removal but I still have centurions and the bulk of my army outside of my Dev squad (they are always targeted first).

Turn 2:

- I have the lead, 3-1. I draw up two cards, and lay into the rest of his army. Riptide is already gone, so I go after stealth suits, and crises suits. He is in big trouble now... I remove cover, and my bike squad is after another unit that came in on the table.

- The funny thing is I'm so used to using Sanctic powers, I thought I'd give them to Tiggy but I perils'd twice using them with doubles. So that's it for Sanctic on Tiggy!

- In my turn I get 3 more points, and he has some broken squads, and doesn't feel he can come back so I offer to go with a restart. He takes the offer, and concedes the game. Victory Ultramarines.

GAME 2:

- He decides he did not like my idea of starting more on the table. He says the pods are too strong.... I actually do get first turn, and decide to take it.

- My rolls for psychic were so-so. I got a lot of mediocre stuff. I decided on Pyro for Tau would be good, and stuck with Divination. I got the 4 + Invuln, but I don't get 'remove cover' so this is even with Tigurius' re-rolls, I failed to get it.

- I go first, and we play the same scenario. He tells me thinks he will go back to putting a lot of his army in reserves. I tell him I sincerely think this is a mistake as he doesn't have comms on the table....

- He fails to sieze and I tell him upfront, I'm just going to try to table him every turn and ignore objectives because of how many reserves he has....

Turn 1:

- Drop pods come in, I declare Dev Doctrine. I destroy his crisis suits, with Devs, and take out the riptide in one volley from the Grav Cents with Tiggy's Warlord trait again....!

- I am a complete idiot... In my blood lust I completely forget about interceptor on two of his units including the riptide. I put Tiggy's squad right beside him, in the open. I lose 2 Devs + 2 Grav Cannon Devs in interceptor fire. (I wanted to go through with the idiocy of my memory lapse, and see if I could still alpha strike him hard... he didn't offer me the chance to rethink my deep strike, but I wouldn't have taken it anyway. )

- Thunderfire puts a LOT of damage out on squads hunkering in ruins, and the remnants are shot up by drop pods. My scouts take out most of one pathfinder squad and he's broken, but they stay on the table running 11". His Stealth suits also break from wounds, and stay on the table.

- Almost tabled, but he has to still survive his turn... he rallies his squads! But because of overwatch nothing can fire normal.

Turn 2:

- I table him utterly.... he has nothing on the table but since it is his bottom of turn, he gets 2 units in from reserve.

- I table him again, but he gets 2 more reserves in... his HQ and his Hammer tank... It actually immobilizes at it arrives from deep strike.... It was a non-factor and I didn't know what I could see... he kept firing from it across the table and I could have killed it, but to be honest there was no way 'for the greater good' he was coming back from the grave.

- In the bottom of 3 he conceded again.

So there you have it. Two super short games. These were extremely devastating compared to my Battle Company games. The truth is, most of what I used in this game either cannot be used in a battle co, or they can't be used properly in a battle co. Either way, the result was a very, very aggressive alphastrike that he couldn't come close to recovering from. In both games, he would get a squad in, and just about annihilate one of mine, but I was positioned for overlapping support from my grav units, while my Aegis played the backfield and aside from the Thunderfires they did literally nothing.

Because the second game went on longer, I actually got to use my Stormtalons and they were very potent because like most Tau he tried to hide from the main thrust of my pods, which doesn't work against Stormtalons. The game was over before they arrived but in that game, the mopped up quite nicely.

So that's the end of the experiment. I certainly learned a lot and if I have time I'd like to collect my thoughts on the whole process of testing this out. Thank you for reading!

[GreyCrow]

Good batreps ! I feel sorry for the Tau player :/

 

It just shows how Grav is almost mandatory today in all Space Marines lists. At least, copious amounts of high strength AP2 (grav having no Strength but Amps rerolling means it's good on vehicles too). It makes sense because Marines are already well geared to take down infantry, so good amounts of anti-armour/elite are needed.

 

It also showcases the importance of being able to withstand an alpha strike like that if you ever want to be competitive. Transports, distraction units, Interceptor, a decent amount of Troops (surely, wasting Grav Devs and Grav Cents on measly Fire Warriors while his heavy hitters and Crisis were in reserves waiting to jump in). Out of curiosity, what did the Tau list look like ? Was he running Farsight Enclave based on the picture ?

 

Still, Grav is too good methinks. It's a bit sickening that it can punch way above its weight like that, and has virtually no penalty (short range isn't that bad when you have fast moving options like Pods). It doesn't make the competitive scene very enjoyable (much like Eldar Jetbikes and Wraithknights, along with tough Necrons).

[Raven6826]

Good batreps ! I feel sorry for the Tau player :/

 

It just shows how Grav is almost mandatory today in all Space Marines lists. At least, copious amounts of high strength AP2 (grav having no Strength but Amps rerolling means it's good on vehicles too). It makes sense because Marines are already well geared to take down infantry, so good amounts of anti-armour/elite are needed.

 

It also showcases the importance of being able to withstand an alpha strike like that if you ever want to be competitive. Transports, distraction units, Interceptor, a decent amount of Troops (surely, wasting Grav Devs and Grav Cents on measly Fire Warriors while his heavy hitters and Crisis were in reserves waiting to jump in). Out of curiosity, what did the Tau list look like ? Was he running Farsight Enclave based on the picture ?

 

Still, Grav is too good methinks. It's a bit sickening that it can punch way above its weight like that, and has virtually no penalty (short range isn't that bad when you have fast moving options like Pods). It doesn't make the competitive scene very enjoyable (much like Eldar Jetbikes and Wraithknights, along with tough Necrons).

Grav is fairly potent, used by an experienced player its nothing short of devastating... Mounted on bikes its one short step short of spam... It's not broke but it is criminally under costed and thus needs some form of grav tax or limits on its deployment.

 

Two bat reps for price of one... Cool as both together are shorter then one of your battle company debriefs ;-) .

 

Can't say your opponant gave you a tough fight... Shame, when it feels like kicking a kitten to death its hardly fun.

 

That build is an alpha striking spam monster, I can see his reluctance to fully deploy against it... Three thunderfires??? . id hide in reserve as well. Trouble is by doing that he gets tabled damn near each round. Naa, competitive builds like yours would kill game enjoyment for me.. Fortunately I don't have any intention of playing anything more than a friendly vs mates over beer and peanuts.

 

 

 

 

So ... Now you have done your experiment, I'm guessing your gonna CAD from here on out! ;-)

[GreyCrow]

I agree with your statetement about cost : I find it's mainly the Salvo rule on Grav Cannons + the Amps that make them too good. Were they Heavy 5, they would be much less spammable (due to Centurions only able to use them at full efficiency on the move). Would make sense considering the Grav Gun is Salvo, meaning heavier than Rapid Fire.

 

But let's not diverge much more from the the topic at hand :p

 

@Prot : How do you think a true MSU build would have fared against your list ?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I am not sorry for the Tau player.  They got what they deserve every single time. :P

 

Question. Would you consider replacing the scouts for small tactical squad with grav-cannons or plasma cannons... or they pull their own weight?

[Prot]

Good batreps ! I feel sorry for the Tau player :/

It just shows how Grav is almost mandatory today in all Space Marines lists. At least, copious amounts of high strength AP2 (grav having no Strength but Amps rerolling means it's good on vehicles too). It makes sense because Marines are already well geared to take down infantry, so good amounts of anti-armour/elite are needed.

Out of curiosity, what did the Tau list look like ? Was he running Farsight Enclave based on the picture ?

- Thank you. I do think Grav is mandatory too. To what levels is very meta specific. I've shown that the assault Ork players we have locally will challenge/punish a heavy Grav list everytime. This is my main reluctance to use a biker squad this way. (I used to go against these Nob/special character biker lists all the time and they slaughter astartes bikes and aren't effected greatly by Grav at all. With my Dark Angels it was easier because of hit and run.)

- The Tau list by memory:

+ Farsight enclave (close combat HQ ) with 3 suits (melta/plasma)

+ 3 x 3 suits of similar design. 1 had an invuln save. (melta/plasma)

+ 3 Stealth suits with Heavy bolter type shots

+ Skyray with lots of junk (I can't remember what he had on it)

+ Hammerhead Railgun

+ Riptide with invuln + A shot which he could overcharge/novacharge to a scary shot that had me worried.

+ 2 squads of Pathfinders for marker lights.

- I don't know if Grav is too good. I've had it go south on me but I think the reason Grav appears amazing right now is because the competitive scene is largely Deathstar based. Grav is a deathstar destroyer imo. So it seems really great at top levels. But in my meta we see guys who just don't give a crap about deathstars, and this would be a real test of over grav'ing. There are spammy Nid players, and a good number of Ork bikers. (Morticon made a great tournament review where a friend of his does extremely well (no spoilers) with his Nob Biker list at that National qualifier.)

In my personal opinion I see the Grav as deathstar control. The second the major scene changes from deathstar to spam or MSU spam, it will be quite different. Also I don't think Grav really does much of anything to Necrons, but they are already fading from the national scene as we are seeing just spamming Canoptek Harvest isn't really winning against good players.

- I still prefer the Grav Centurion to the Devastator, but not for the obvious reason of Salvo issues... moreso that issue I just mentioned with spam lists... the Cents can leverage the nipple bolters really well in those cases. My biggest issue is no overwatch. that really sucks... sucks even more for me since I always use LibCon with Diviniation. (full overwatch )

Grav is fairly potent, used by an experienced player its nothing short of devastating... Mounted on bikes its one short step short of spam... It's not broke but it is criminally under costed and thus needs some form of grav tax or limits on its deployment.

Two bat reps for price of one... Cool as both together are shorter then one of your battle company debriefs ;-) .

Can't say your opponant gave you a tough fight... Shame, when it feels like kicking a kitten to death its hardly fun.

That build is an alpha striking spam monster, I can see his reluctance to fully deploy against it... Three thunderfires??? . id hide in reserve as well. Trouble is by doing that he gets tabled damn near each round. Naa, competitive builds like yours would kill game enjoyment for me.. Fortunately I don't have any intention of playing anything more than a friendly vs mates over beer and peanuts.

So ... Now you have done your experiment, I'm guessing your gonna CAD from here on out! ;-)

- Oddly enough, once again I'd say in my list the bikes are redundant and I also face some IG parking lot lists. I'd rather go back to melta there and keep Grav in pods. But this shows we all have different meta's to deal with. My continual headaches with Eldar aren't so bad with this list, but Orks? I don't know how well this would go down. (heck I had an incredible undefeated run with my Necron Decurion and I could NOT beat this Ork guy with it, yet the internet would tell me otherwise.)

- The CAD definitely feels stronger, and more flexible. Just being able to take 3 Thunderfires, empty pods, scout (troops), and cherry pick the appropriate number of Stormtalons was a very potent feeling. But I have to admit I felt pretty bad completely whooping my opponent like this.

- I have slowly been learning how to play a Battle Co Gladius over the last 15+ games and I have to admit it is extremely fun, even if not the most potent form of the codex. Don't get me wrong it's very good, but it's a lot of MSU and junk armour... however it feels a lot like a "battle company" you'd read about in the novels. I have to hand it to GW on that one. They nailed it.

@Prot : How do you think a true MSU build would have fared against your list ?

- Funny I was just thinking about a friend's spore mine Nid list. I hate it... but love it. It truly tests this sort of list. I guess it would do far less alpha damage, but that's why the Thunderfires are there.

I am not sorry for the Tau player. They got what they deserve every single time.

Question. Would you consider replacing the scouts for small tactical squad with grav-cannons or plasma cannons... or they pull their own weight?

- First I apologized to my opponent. I also thanked him because he stuck to the same list (within 200pts) for my Gladius Battle Co game, the CAD game, and the Grey Knights game. I did warn him that although this list was not tailored for him (I took a skyfire icarus lascannon even) it was meant to take all comers and go for the jugular. He was fine with it. I even emailed him after and apologized for the second game.... he realizes it was just for a test. ;)

- I think this is the max Grav I would take. In fact I could do something different with the bikes entirely to be honest. The Grav Cannons are so expensive, and again horrible against chaff. This is why Thunderfires and Stormtalons are so great in a CAD (yet difficult in a Gladius).

- The Scouts are an amazingly light tax for a CAD now. I honestly only see CAD Tacticals as an unwanted tax for specials. So one squad for the magical number 3 pod is probably the best way for me to maximize points, and take advantage of BS4 scouts. (Scouts in the speeder are great too... what a fantastically underrated unit. It's not a deal maker, but just a good, well costed unit.)

- The thing is to be honest the alpha hits were so hard, that quite often a good portion of my army literally had nothing to do. In the second game when he went heavier reserves, it was even easier for me because I could annihilate 1/3 of his army a turn. Sometimes I didn't have anything for the scouts to even do but grab objectives, which they do very well, but as mentioned I was going for the table clear in game 2 because of his decision.

Thanks for reading guys!

[GreyCrow]

Interesting ! Yeah, so the Tau had a very Elite force, no wonder Grav was so efficient against them :)

 

Regarding the MSU comment, I wasn't necessarily thinking about weak troops (in which case the TFC will do wonders like you pointed out), but forcing overkill by having so many units on the board that you wouldn't be able to kill more per turn than you have units, and you would probably erase 5 men squads easily but many wounds would be wasted.

[Prot]

Right. Exactly... I agree. :)

 

Spore lists are nasty. They  have all these tiny cruddy squads you can't ignore, and yet in the background the Nids are recycling larger squad. I don't think I'd have a chance against a list like that. This is why I think Grav is fine in game. The day the competitive scene shifts from Deathstars, Grav will feel more limiting.

 

Again my meta is different. I have players that refuse to shift to the FotM and as a result I face these off the wall (but very fun) lists that are kind of 'meta breakers'. I just wanted to try this out and I felt it was necessary for me to be honest about my experiences with the Battle Company.

 

Going back a few months everyone and their dog thought the Gladius/Lion's blade was so incredibly good it was going to be broken. I don't think that's the case at all... and I think my CAD has given me enough proof that idea.

 

But at it's core the Battle Co is a lot of fun (for both sides) to play. Lots dies, lots happens. It feels like a big war during those games. ;)
 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Glad you finally saw the light ;)

I think your list handles the one thing grav doesn't (spammy chaff) really well with that Thunderfire squadron and the hurricanes.

Now, for something even dirtier in your next testing series....

Grav-Cancer+Grey Knight Allies

[GreyCrow]

Hey !

 

I'm not sure Grav is going anywhere even if the deathstars go away. I just had a game against a full Grav Gladius and it was really sickening how powerful and broken that weapon is (I'm not complaining about people who include much Grav in their lists, fair game, but about the rules about Grav as designed by GW). In particular, the Grav Amp is broken. I really, really don't want to hijack your thread mate, but I feel that what happened tonight to me is relevant for the discussion.

 

So, even though I'm rocking a 2+ cover, I lost 2 to 3 Marines per Grav volley in the first turn. Fair enough because it's not statistical, but the fact that Grav Cannons open up this possibility while equivalent points in Heavy Weapons do not is bad. With doctrines and amps, doing 4 to 5 wounds per Grav Cannon at 35 points against anything 4+ and better is "too" good compared to everything else. It's better to have a single Grav Cannon than 2 Plasma Cannons for example. 

 

Then, against vehicles, 70 points of Grav took down a zooming Stormraven that Jinked through 2 immobilizations, killing about 200 points of melee contents. That's roughly 400 points gone. Once again, what killed it was the Amp rather than the Doctrines (because, fair enough, they apply throughout the entire army regardless of the weapon).

 

____

 

So, back to the topic, Grav Cannons are really what you want, regardless of what you're fighting. Against vehicles, you'd rather spend 35 points of Grav Cannons than 40 points of Lascannons. Against Elite infantry, you'd rather spend 35 points of Grav Cannons compared to 30 points of Plasma Cannons.

 

Against weaker infantry, sure Grav is useless, but the basic Tactical Marine kit works well enough. It's a bit of a shame that one weapon in the Marines arsenal is so good that it outshines all other choices.

[Raven6826]

Hey !

 

I'm not sure Grav is going anywhere even if the deathstars go away. I just had a game against a full Grav Gladius and it was really sickening how powerful and broken that weapon is (I'm not complaining about people who include much Grav in their lists, fair game, but about the rules about Grav as designed by GW). In particular, the Grav Amp is broken. I really, really don't want to hijack your thread mate, but I feel that what happened tonight to me is relevant for the discussion.

 

So, even though I'm rocking a 2+ cover, I lost 2 to 3 Marines per Grav volley in the first turn. Fair enough because it's not statistical, but the fact that Grav Cannons open up this possibility while equivalent points in Heavy Weapons do not is bad. With doctrines and amps, doing 4 to 5 wounds per Grav Cannon at 35 points against anything 4+ and better is "too" good compared to everything else. It's better to have a single Grav Cannon than 2 Plasma Cannons for example.

 

Then, against vehicles, 70 points of Grav took down a zooming Stormraven that Jinked through 2 immobilizations, killing about 200 points of melee contents. That's roughly 400 points gone. Once again, what killed it was the Amp rather than the Doctrines (because, fair enough, they apply throughout the entire army regardless of the weapon).

 

____

 

So, back to the topic, Grav Cannons are really what you want, regardless of what you're fighting. Against vehicles, you'd rather spend 35 points of Grav Cannons than 40 points of Lascannons. Against Elite infantry, you'd rather spend 35 points of Grav Cannons compared to 30 points of Plasma Cannons.

 

Against weaker infantry, sure Grav is useless, but the basic Tactical Marine kit works well enough. It's a bit of a shame that one weapon in the Marines arsenal is so good that it outshines all other choices.

Look on the bright side, at least we have a tua clobberer that works... Perhaps all we need do is set up a SM Geneva convention and agree not to use grav against each other.... Id sleep better at night before a game day knowing that :-)

[Cpt Rana]

I often see list in different forums with spaming GC and see different threat about the super grav. My local gaming buddy runs a unbound ork army with custom force field everywhere combined with feel no pain. I try to field a all comers list and therefore include two GC. Against this sort of list the GC is in no way overpowered. He got one MC from forge world which carries terminators which is the only two optimal targets in his list for my gravy weapon.

 

How about against a daemon list? I don't think a GC army would be any good against that neither, and a army that spams GC will probably be in short supply of regular weapons (AC, HB etc).   

[Gaius Atticus]

Grav is useless against IG/AM infantry lists. I watched a White Scars grav spam tournament list get pummelled by lasgun and special/heavy weapon spam. The twinlinked bolters and T5 were the only things that kept the Scars in the game.

[Prot]

 

So, back to the topic, Grav Cannons are really what you want, regardless of what you're fighting. Against vehicles, you'd rather spend 35 points of Grav Cannons than 40 points of Lascannons. Against Elite infantry, you'd rather spend 35 points of Grav Cannons compared to 30 points of Plasma Cannons.

 

Against weaker infantry, sure Grav is useless, but the basic Tactical Marine kit works well enough. It's a bit of a shame that one weapon in the Marines arsenal is so good that it outshines all other choices.

 

I just can't agree. I play them. I strongly... strongly recommend you try them against vehicles. I find them absolutely horrible. What happened to you there is so rare, I don't think I've ever done it. This is why traditionally I'm toting Melta and usually my second heavy is a Lascannon squad.

 

100% honestly I can't think of a time where I've been that lucky with 6's. If it's centurions, and I mess up... they are dead because I can't even overwatch when they inevitably get assaulted.

 

The only case I see it being too strong in my experience is on bikers, because of the getting around salvo and using it to full effect on the bike. But I have had such miserable experiences against vehicles, I could write a lot of examples on where this has failed me, but inevitably I just swap to other weapons and just personally don't subscribe to pure Grav.

 

I would say bikes in general are just exceptionally potent. Jink is very strong, jinking into close combat is exceptional as well. Skilled rider is crazy good, if we're talking Ravenwing it takes it to another level. Throw gravguns on this platform and it's an incredible combo.

 

But each to their own. I respect you feel that way about Gravamps, I just respectfully feel they aren't over the top in my personal experiences.

 

 

 

Grav is useless against IG/AM infantry lists. I watched a White Scars grav spam tournament list get pummelled by lasgun and special/heavy weapon spam. The twinlinked bolters and T5 were the only things that kept the Scars in the game.

 

Absolutely. I try telling people this but it feels like I'm talking to a brick wall so I've given up. I just accept some people do not seem to have to deal with the same experiences I do, so it comes down to meta again.

 

When I used to take super heavy grav I get completely annihilated by garbage lists with chaff or most Astra lists. Even Necrons really have zero concern for it. It's wasted on most units. This isn't theory hammer, this is directly why I stopped using it too heavily.

 

BUT if your meta is the deathstar type of scene, then yea, you won't experience this at all.

[Ishagu]

The Emperor has blessed us with his light, offering holy Grav to those who defend his Imperium.

 

Blessed be thy Grav, let it crush Heretic, Alien and Mutant with it's re-rolling amps.

 

 

But seriously, I don't feel it's over-powered. I'll agree with the sentiment that the current Marine codex is the best it's ever been, but it falls short of Necrons and Eldar so we shouldn't wish for our army to be nerfed.

 

Against a Necron Decurion Grav isn't nearly powerful enough!

[Prot]

Right now Grav is very good, but it's the meta that has been created by the current tournament scene. It's mostly deathstars.

 

As I have voiced my opinion based on my own experiences, I do think it's easy to overdo it. But again, it's meta. My meta will crush a heavy Grav environment, but the next game I could play my Grey Knight army and table it.... It's kind of a feast or famine weapon it's just the beauty of it is the Grav strength is not just the obvious... it's one of our super rare abilities for Marines to have a multi-fire weapon that is decent.

 

That is to say if I had access to a 5 shot, Salvo Multimelta, I'd take in a heart beat over Grav. Our army is old, the weapons in it have not updated at all until Grav. It is necessary and keeps us in the fight when the xenos around us get new toys, or special rules. There had to be a way to keep the common marine valid, and it takes more than a bolter to do so. So they did it with Grav.

 

But I personally have a strong suspicion that once we see updates to Nids, Astra, and Orks, this will be where other meta's see a slight swing. Grav is here to stay, but trying to fit as many on the field as possible could shift a bit.

 

@Ishagu, I agree. I actually play Necrons and if I face a heavy Grav army it's pretty good for my Necrons. I'd much rather face Grav than plasma (wounds easier, and takes down open vehicles easier). Or lots of Melta which is instant death for Arks, and often negatively impacts Reanimation Protocols by 1.

 

But my Necrons do actually have a lot of issues with Orks, even if I pull out the Decurion. It's funny really.