Missing Chapter

[Marshal Rohr]

Has anyone else noticed there is a missing chapter in the Ultramarines? Tyrannicide and I were coming up with company numbers today and we realized, because there is no 'zero' company in the Ultramarines, all the company numbers illustrated in Tempest are off by 10.

 

 

Anyone have an explanation? Double strength First Company, maybe?

 

Chapter '0'- 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10

Chapter 1 - 11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20

....

Chapter 10 - 91,92,93,94,95,96,97,98,99,100 (So the Breacher on page 89 is wrong). 

[Conn Eremon]

If Chapter 1 starts with 11, 12, etc, then Chapter 9 would start with 91, 92, etc, not Chapter 10.

[Marshal Rohr]

If Chapter 1 starts with 11, 12, etc, then Chapter 9 would start with 91, 92, etc, not Chapter 10.

 

But Chapter 1 starts with 1 because Ventanus is Captain of the 4th Company, 1st Chapter, per his unit entry. 

[Conn Eremon]

Well okay, but I was pointing out that in your list, which has Chapter 1 starting with 11, that Chapter 9 would start with 91, not Chapter 10 as you have it.

[TennisBall]

But Chapter 1 starts with 1 because Ventanus is Captain of the 4th Company, 1st Chapter, per his unit entry.

That doesn't actually explain why Chapter 1 starts with a 1, it's just a random bit of info about Cpt. Ventanus.

[Marshal Rohr]

Are you saying Chapter 1 and 2 could mix and match companies and every other chapter doesn't? Its pretty clearly the Ultras are numerically organized. 

[Kol Saresk]

Are you saying Chapter 1 and 2 could mix and match companies and every other chapter doesn't? Its pretty clearly the Ultras are numerically organized.

No one has said that? In your OP, you list "Chapter 0" starting with 1, Chapter 1 starting with 11 but then you have Chapter 10 starting with 91. What Conn pointed out is that following your pattern, Chapter 10 should start with 101, not 91. If Chapter 10 starts with 91, then Chapter 1 is your "Chapter 0" since it should start with 1.

[Kriegriss]

As i see it i think kol is right

[Marshal Rohr]

But my point is that if you start with chapter 1, 1-10, your end up "losing" a chapter, making the numbering conventions of the FW illustrations incorrect. All the player with the x company of the x chapter are off by 10. If we follow chapter 1 having companies then the second chapter is 11-20, 3rd is 21-30, 4th is 31-40, etc. By the time you get to the chapters FW showed the numbers don't match.

[Tyrannicide]

Rohr simply didn't make clear that FW has never alluded to a "Chapter 0" formation existing. That's our claim and their numbering system doesn't make sense on the surface.

 

We have the 112th Company belonging to the 11th Chapter, as shown on page 88 of Tempest. Yet that doesn't work. Let's use the information we know about the Ultramarines numbering conventions, like Ventanus being the Captain of the 4th Company of the 1st Chapter. That means that Company numbers follow as such:

 

Chapter 1: Companies 1-10

Chapter 2: Companies 11-20

Chapter 3: Companies 21-30

...

Chapter 10: Companies 91-100

Chapter 11: Companies 101-110

Chapter 12: Companies 111-120

...

 

Following from the system above, the 112th Company would in fact belong to the 12th Chapter and not the 11th Chapter, as FW has stated.

 

The only reasoning we can think of behind this is that there is a 'Chapter 0' type formation consisting of the Legion's Invictarii units, Command cadre and bodyguard, and specialists attached to Legion Command OR those all exist beyond the nominal 250,000 legionaries mark, and that the 1st Chapter is double strength (Companies 1-20).

[Kol Saresk]

Okay. That could have been better explained in the original post.

 

Yeah, I think the best explanation would be that the First Company is double strength and is probably done so for the four Tetrarchs, so they can each have a viable military force of five companies each. Granted, that is just supposition from the top of my head.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Didn't the 4th chapter have 5 times the amount of heavy armour as a standard chapter? Things like that would tend to increase the number of companies and would end up skewing the numbers

[Conn Eremon]

The Ultramarines also had many different organizations that existed outside the normal Chapter hierarchy. Chapter Zero might be a catchall.

[Reyner]

Chapter zero could be the Evocati? 

[Kol Saresk]

Chapter zero could be the Evocati?

Among other things most likely. I think Conn and Mohawk have the gist in that it's a catch all for all the "discrepancies" in the normal organization. A Company here, a formation there, etc.

[TennisBall]

The most likely explanation is that FW doesn't actually give a :cuss about legion organisation beyond the basic unit formations required to play games. The number of confused people who have the heresy books tells me that the staff never bothered to come up with a cogent organisation beyond surface details.

Is every marine assigned to a chapter sized unit? No, they can't be otherwise there are no marines at legion level.

If you have a legion of 100,000 marines, there are probably thousands of marines not part of a chapter sized formation so having 200,000 marines doesn't mean you have 200 chapters/companies. This is the simplistic approach GW have taken, they've taken the mistakes made with 40K chapter organisation, which is saying a chapter is 1000 which then ignores all the command and support marines, and expanded it to the clusterf..k that is legion organisation.

 

Make it up yourselves, it's the only way you're going to make any sense of it.

 

Those nice big expensive books should have had detailed listings of each legion in them. One of the things that has stuck with me over the years was seeing some logistical porn once. It was the centrefold of Blitzkrieg by Len Deighton, a book about the German invasion of France.

The centrefold was a diagram showing a panzer division - it listed all the tank units, the infantry units, artillery, support etc.

I expect FW to show more imagination and detail the legions in the same way.

Similarly it would be nice if GW as a whole started making better use of the imperial dating system.

[Legatus]

Or maybe it's an honest mistake. You know, how often people will think that the year 1571 is set in the "15th century", even though it is actually the 16th century. Or how the first year of the new millennium was 2001, not 2000. The entire BL/FW Legion organisation is wonky anyway. Legions are increased by a factor of 10. Chapters are now 10,000 strong, no longer 1,000. Why Companies would be numbered consecutively I have no idea, since Squads of a 40K Chapter are not numbered in that fashion. (2nd Company has squads 1-10, not squads 11-20, 3rd Company has squads 1-10, not squads 21-30, etc.)

[Marshal Rohr]

Or maybe it's an honest mistake. You know, how often people will think that the year 1571 is set in the "15th century", even though it is actually the 16th century. Or how the first year of the new millennium was 2001, not 2000. The entire BL/FW Legion organisation is wonky anyway. Legions are increased by a factor of 10. Chapters are now 10,000 strong, no longer 1,000. Why Companies would be numbered consecutively I have no idea, since Squads of a 40K Chapter are not numbered in that fashion. (2nd Company has squads 1-10, not squads 11-20, 3rd Company has squads 1-10, not squads 21-30, etc.)

 

If it is an honest mistake, and the way Tyrannicide and I described is the 'correct' patterning, we'd like to know for the sake of army backgrounds. Wouldn't want to paint up a company from a chapter that was at Calth only to find out because the numbering is off, your chapter was now halfway across the galaxy. 

[LongGone]

I wouldn't really get hung up on the 'nothing is true, everything is permitted' fluff for legion organization. Or any of the fluff, for that matter.

 

Haven't read the aforementioned rule book. Is the example of "4th Company, 1st Chapter" the only basis of the numerical organization you're putting forth?

 

Honestly, it doesn't really matter. At most, it's an insignificant mathematical mistake from a random copy editor. Rock out with your sock out. They're your little plastic men. Your head canon trumps all. Within reason.

[Legatus]

But company numbers are not displayed on a Marine or on banners, are they?

[LongGone]

But company numbers are not displayed on a Marine or on banners, are they?

That's entirely up to the individual modeler. There's no hard fluff either way. It could be a number. It could be just heraldry. It could be both. It could be just a blank blue flag.

 

Go forth my son, and do the greatest of things.

[Marshal Rohr]

We aren't 'head-canon trumps all' players though, we are 'head-canon augments established FW lore'. For instance, we talk about the tactical level unit divisions within the Ultramarines 1000 man companies as centuries. We don't invent new things. It was just an honest question, and the consensus seems to be 'mistake'. 

[LongGone]

There may have been a misunderstanding. I wasn't trying to get on your case for asking a fluff question. And I'm not saying to disregard the awesome new fluff created by FW and BL. *cue rambling rant that uses a generalized, non royal 'you'*

 

I'm saying not to get wrapped up in it, mistakes/inconsistencies or otherwise. We've been given a very generalized 'fluff framework' to build our armies in. And there's an understanding that what holds true now won't necessarily hold true in two or three years. You can't let worries about future changes dictate what you do today. And when those changes do come, don't let that :cuss take away your fluff glitter. (Where's my witch-abhorring BT players at?)

 

So make the fluff for your guys. Make those loyalist World Eaters with the Librarian, or those White Scars with all the heavy armor. As long as you can articulate how it fits in the framework we've been given (we'll call it the reasonable person standard), you're set. And shame on anyone who tells you otherwise.

 

The thing to remember is head canon has no impact on the tabletop. Unless you're somehow using that as justification for some homemade crunch, you can do just about anything (again, within reason). So the fluff I'm creating for my loyalist World Eaters (from an unofficial echelon, with unofficial companies) doesn't have to change if I really want to try them with their less than loyal rule set. Because, let's face it, Khârn is just so much better than Darr.

 

Back on topic though...

 

I asked a question earlier, because I haven't read the relevant rule book. Is "4th Company, 1st Chapter" the only stated example you are using for the basis of your numerical chapter/company organization? Or do they straight up lay it out for ALL chapters? I'm trying to get a reference point for what is stated in black and white, and what is left for reader extrapolation/interpretation.

 

And I'm confused on where the missing chapter comes in...