Ultarmarines Logos - 3000 points

[GreyCrow]

Hey guys !

 

So, this is just a mock up list with Ultramarines at 3000 points (seems like the standard game format in my area). The strategy with this list is to spam scoring units so that I'll have always more than the enemy and focus on killing the other infantry. The goal is to win through the objectives, not the kills.

 

I picked the Logos, not to build around it, but because it's the best ROW that buffs that following list.

 

Praetor - Iron Halo, Volkite Charger, Paragon Blade

Master Of Signal

Roboute Guilliman (LOW)

 

10 Tactical Marines - Artificer Armour, Vexilla, Power Sword

10 Tactical Marines - Artificer Armour, Vexilla, Power Sword

10 Tactical Marines - Artificer Armour, Vexilla, Plasma Pistol

10 Tactical Marines - Artificer Armour, Vexilla, Combi-Melta

5 Support Marines - 5 Plasmaguns

5 Support Marines - 5 Meltaguns

 

5 Cataphractii - 5 Volkite Charges, 5 Power Swords

5 Cataphractii - 5 Combi-Plasmas, 5 Power Swords

5 Invictarus Suzerains - 1 Invictarus Ancient with Company Banner

Contemptor Talon - 2 Kheres/Power Fists, 1 Lascannon, Power Fist

 

___

 

So, the strategy on the board is going to make sure that the units survive throughout the 5 turns, using the HQ and Elites as a distraction and fire/tarpit magnet. Roboute will give primarily Implacable Advance to the Contemptors, so I have a total of 12 scoring units in this list.

 

In terms of target priority, the goal will be to kill anything that can reliably kill/tarpit the infantry. As you can see, there is a minimal anti-tank support in that list, just in case I need it. Against Full Mech armies, the idea is to count on the MSU and the fact that 10 Marines are still relatively hard to kill if they're in cover to make sure that the opponent will not wipe them off the board. Due to good Ld, Vexillas, and Suzerains, they'll ensure that the units don't really flee and so even if a single Ultramarine remains per squad they can still grab objectives.

[SkimaskMohawk]

You don't seem to have any anti-air, which is a very big problem or a real anti-spartan threat.

 

Also why a plasma pistol on a seargent? They're known as one of the most overcosted wargear. Also why so many power swords? Axes are much better since you can cut through the 2+ armour every seargent wears

[GreyCrow]

You don't seem to have any anti-air, which is a very big problem or a real anti-spartan threat.

 

Also why a plasma pistol on a seargent? They're known as one of the most overcosted wargear. Also why so many power swords? Axes are much better since you can cut through the 2+ armour every seargent wears

 

Regarding the threats you've mentionned :

1) Anti-Air : What really should I be afraid of with that list ? The main threat to my army seems to be the Fire Raptors due to their Avenger Bolt Cannons. But as soon as a Fire Raptor will be on the table, then I'll just hug cover and make sure the objectives are in cover (the 4+ kind). If we're talking about the Storm Eagle as an Assault Transport, then I'll adopt the same strategy as for the Spartan.

2) Anti-Spartan : The Spartan in itself is not really a problem, but its contents are. What kind of deathstar do people usually run in them ?

The idea was, rather than killing off its content, the goal would be to force them to go after mook units and waste time on them while the rest of my army goes forward. "Tanking" them if you will by directing them through positioning to somewhere which will minimize their impact over the course of the battle.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Fire raptor, xiphon, lightning, caestus. All of these can deal with your transports and guys inside them. Staying in cover is well and good, but being in cover isn't a tactic to counter, well, anything. You'll be able to endure the hits more, but they're still things you have no way of threatening. As for the spartan, sure it's a threat; your list depends on moving into the objectives and it can kill your transports easily and then your 2+ save guys. People usually put primarchs and Cataphracti in or red butchers or such; things that are a threat to everything in your list

[GreyCrow]

I don't have any transport in the list ^^ The only vehicles are the Dreadnoughts. The idea wasn't to rush and clear the objectives, but pace myself and move to/towards them only when needed, which will be towards the end of the game. Which is why objective placement is paramount :) Good point about them shooting at the Terminators. I was banking on the 4+ invulnerable but that might not be enough.

 

These kind of deathstars are indeed a threat to all things in my list, but I'm not sure they'll be able to singlehandedly deal with them. And I do have my own Primarch + Suzerains as a counter offense.

The idea with this list is that yes, for sure, they'll kill units. But will they be able to kill enough to prevent me from scoring objectives, preventing mine from being contested and scoring theirs, that's the question I'm trying to answer :)

[Dom_]

The idea with this list is that yes, for sure, they'll kill units. But will they be able to kill enough to prevent me from scoring objectives, preventing mine from being contested and scoring theirs, that's the question I'm trying to answer :)

Have you considered the Iron Warriors? ;)

 

To me it seems like you don't have enough to deal with the bigger armour units, and there is no protection for your most valued units, or manoeuvrability.

 

For simply anti-air duty make one, or even two, of the dreads a mortis with assault cannons or lascannons.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Oh, I completely missed the no transports. Your list is incredibly weak as a result; there's no threat at range except for a tl lascannon, so people can sit back and punish you with barrage and other high impact guns since you effectively have no anti tank (meltas need to footslog, kheres is unreliable). On top of that you're relying on foot slogging marines to contest objectives...with no mobility. I'm seriously at a loss by this point, as your list just can't perform it's job of getting to objectives and sticking on them.

[GreyCrow]

Oh, I completely missed the no transports. Your list is incredibly weak as a result; there's no threat at range except for a tl lascannon, so people can sit back and punish you with barrage and other high impact guns since you effectively have no anti tank (meltas need to footslog, kheres is unreliable). On top of that you're relying on foot slogging marines to contest objectives...with no mobility. I'm seriously at a loss by this point, as your list just can't perform it's job of getting to objectives and sticking on them.

 

Once again, why would I want to kill the tanks ? Aside from the Typhon (in which case I would rely on the Terminators and their Invuln to go on duty) and the Glaive, which tanks are so threatening that no amount of positioning can mitigate ? So threatening that they will, when spammed, kill all of my army throughout the course of a game ? I would love an example, because the artillery/barrage weapons you're talking about aren't super threatening due to the fact that they don't ignore cover, or when they do they have a bad AP. Please enlighten me there.

 

For example, I don't care if a Medusa Squadron of 3 shoots at a Tactical Squad in cover. Sure, he might kill it, but that's 310 points (if I'm correct) that he has spent on a single Tactical Squad. And I have more units, including the Terminators, the Dreadnoughts and the Support squads to still capture objectives. Regarding the Typhon, it's 450ish points spent to kill a single Tactical Squad, which is about average.

 

Regarding mobility and your experience in 40k and 30k games, I've noticed that the average distance between objectives and the edge of the deployment zone is usually 12", or 18" in the case. It's not like I'm throwing them all in the enemy deployment zone and he waits for me to come at them :p Considering they have a 24" wide bubble within which you can't place other objectives (in the scenario of W40k, I'm not extremely familiar with all the scenarios in AOD yet), and considering they can't be placed within 6" of the table edge, now we're only talking about a 5x3 board where the objectives can be placed. Considering they can be placed within 12" of one another, and that I need to be within 3" to control, the minimal distance needed to move between objectives is 6". If I really need to bubble wrap around, there is full march from the Logos. Then there are charges (hence the Contemptors that can Fleet and trigger rerolls to charge for Ultramarines units), which mean that on average with rerolls an infantry unit will move 6"+9"+3" (Pile in for the guys behind), meaning 18".

If I had to walk 30" to get each objectives, I would agree with you.

 

Once again, the goal as stated isn't to make a killy list with strong units that cost an arm. But units that can, through number of units and a decent number of bodies. This is an army for positioning and board control priority. Unfortunately, each unit is expendable as long as the mission is won, but the goal is to not expose them needlessly. What I want to kill is infantry at close-mid range (because this is where the fight for objectives will be) and once again only when I need to kill the enemy units or they are targets of opportunity.

 

The gameplay is more : I'm doing my thing and I will score objectives. The opponent can go ahead and try to stop me. I know that he will try, so I'll position my units accordingly to make it damn hard for him to do.

Actually, like I said, Roboute is more of a problem within the list, as well as perhaps one too many Dreadnought. Removing those will save 650 points that can be spent elsewhere. :D

 

If I wanted to bring rightful retribution on the heretic, then I would have totally played another list. :p

[sethdelta]

I have to say that the way your talking you must roll super hot. If I was playing against that army I'd likely table it... hug cover all you want but when your rolling handfuls of dice at a time your still going to drop units at a pace that you likely can't keep up with.

 

An army like mechanicum would love to see an army like yours across the table.

 

An all comers legion army should still fare well against this army also, a mix of vehicles and infantry should out maneuver and have the firepower, especially at 3k points, to put the hurt on from a distance with little or not return fire.

 

I'd simply kill your contemptors and then pick apart the rest. Dice gods willing that is.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The scorpius and Medusa and thudd guns will give your units a very hard time, as well a magna melta/executioner preds. They don't need to completely ignore saves to still sbe a credible threat, just generate a large amount of wounds. Broadsides, thunderfires and wyverns are all very strong despite not ignoring 3+ armour. Cover helps mitigate low ap weapons, but you're treating a 4+ save as a direct counter to it (going by what you've said about terminators tanking a typhons shots). The game is all about momentum; the more you can kill, the bigger the edge, but your list just doesn't generate any while your opponent should be able to kill at minimum 2 squads turn one in 3000, which only gets worse as turns go on

[Marshal Loss]

...your strategy to win the game is to survive without trying to kill any tanks at all? Absolutely bizarre. I'm not sure who you/what play against, but this would get slaughtered by pretty much any list with adequate blasts. No maneuverability, no anti-armour, no anti-flyer. At 3,000 points I wouldn't be surprised if you lost half of your army in the first 2 turns.

 

Your units are small and will flee when they take enough casualties. You also have no way of destroying anything that doesn't gently meander into bolter range. If he's killing all of your stuff and your only hope is to hold objectives, what's stopping an opponent from simply denying all of your scoring units? It would be very simple to execute. Guilliman can't be everywhere.

 

I don't mean to cause offence, but it sounds like you're talking theory without having applied your list in a practical sense (Ultrasmurf joke, get it?). This list will auto-lose to flyers, probably auto-lose to heavy mech armies with blob control and have a seriously hard time against an army with the cc ability to put Guilliman down. All it excels at is having vast numbers of spare wounds, but other armies (SA, Militia) do this better than you do.

[GreyCrow]

I have to say that the way your talking you must roll super hot. If I was playing against that army I'd likely table it... hug cover all you want but when your rolling handfuls of dice at a time your still going to drop units at a pace that you likely can't keep up with.

 

An army like mechanicum would love to see an army like yours across the table.

 

An all comers legion army should still fare well against this army also, a mix of vehicles and infantry should out maneuver and have the firepower, especially at 3k points, to put the hurt on from a distance with little or not return fire.

 

I'd simply kill your contemptors and then pick apart the rest. Dice gods willing that is.

 

Show me the army that you play that will table me every single time, I'd love to see what this list would be up against at 3k points :)

 

 

The scorpius and Medusa and thudd guns will give your units a very hard time, as well a magna melta/executioner preds. They don't need to completely ignore saves to still sbe a credible threat, just generate a large amount of wounds. Broadsides, thunderfires and wyverns are all very strong despite not ignoring 3+ armour. Cover helps mitigate low ap weapons, but you're treating a 4+ save as a direct counter to it (going by what you've said about terminators tanking a typhons shots). The game is all about momentum; the more you can kill, the bigger the edge, but your list just doesn't generate any while your opponent should be able to kill at minimum 2 squads turn one in 3000, which only gets worse as turns go on

 

Okay for the Thudd Guns (that unit is really broken, the point cost is so cheap compared to what it can do. I literally could replace Guilliman with 6 Thudd Guns by combining the two Terminator squads and that would be way too powerful for the points cost). By the way, as I mentionned, I won't play 30k against 40k armies (I've got my 40k army for that) so Broadsides, TFCs and Eldar Jetbikes are not a concern.

 

I really think you underestimate the power of cover to be honest. Playing Raven Guard in 40k in a very competitive meta (we're talking about 2+ cover saves here in the first turn, but with a lot less models on the table compared to what I'd be throwing here), being able to shrug off high AP weapons is easier that you think.

The ability to generate wounds is indeed key against my list.

 

 

 

I don't mean to cause offence, but it sounds like you're talking theory without having applied your list in a practical sense (Ultrasmurf joke, get it?). This list will auto-lose to flyers, probably auto-lose to heavy mech armies with blob control and have a seriously hard time against an army with the cc ability to put Guilliman down. All it excels at is having vast numbers of spare wounds, but other armies (SA, Militia) do this better than you do.

 

Okay, what flier list would be an auto-win against this one ? Literally please, because the fliers I see in the 30k army list aren't scary really against a large infantry force.

 

Besides, I think you all forget that fliers can't move more than 2 turns (at best) without being forced to drop down to hover mode or go off the table. Or that fliers that can't be placed because their minimal movement results in overlapping another unit are destroyed, which is a good tool to funnel fliers out of the board.

[Marshal Loss]

Any flyer/drop assault army is an auto win here, as they are able to circle with impunity all game, deploying units wherever they like/simply drop down to contest on the last turn to deny your scoring units. Easy stuff. You're overestimating how difficult it is to use flyers; and so what if they drop into hover? You don't have the firepower to drop them even if they do. Flyers do more than kill a few marines per turn.

 

A drop pod can deploy near your infantry, and sit inside with an AV12 voidshield protecting them as they kill you. Etc. You don't have the speed (for that matter, you have no speed at all) with which to react to enemy threats. Your entire game plan rests on hoping that you have enough space marines left to hold objectives. Not reliable at all.

 

You seem determined to ignore feedback, and are overconfident in the ability of your list. Disagreeing with people is fine but when the majority are saying something...it's worth considering past 'you underestimate cover' 'you underestimate this' etc. You say you won't play 40k armies, but this really won't do well against 30k armies - I am telling you this from experience, as are the other 30k players, not to bash your hopes and dreams. If you find this list fun (which would be surprising), then all the power to you buddy, but it is not an effective list in any way.

 

Armies using Quad Mortars, Basilisks, Medusa's, Fire Raptors, Typhons, Fellblades, Glaives...DG/Sally flamer based armies, any elite assault army able to kill Guilliman in combat (or are simply fast enough to avoid him, which is not hard as he is just walking...), drop assault armies, mechanised forces, fear bomb Night Lords (Curze would annihilate this army by making units break left right and centre), Mechanicum forces with robots/tanks simply too tough for you to kill, Tech-thrall spamming armies that you can't move off objectives and are fearless unlike you,  Imperial Knights simply walking through cover and removing a unit per turn with Acherons, the massed firepower of the Solar Auxilia, Militia armies with more bodies/wounds than you that simply won't flee...these are forces you would struggle with, to say the least.

 

Not saying you have to take a 'net list' - no way - but you seem to be willfully ignoring every piece of advice that comes your way. Unless you're also playing against somebody who for whatever reason only wants to walk space marines at you, this will not work.

 

Enjoy

[sethdelta]

 

 

 

 

 

This list was just a combination of everything I had available for a test game and it's faced off against a fairly competitive Sons of Horus list. Granted I realized that BattleScribe has incorrect point values for Castellax and that they are 20 points extra per model. This would not have made a significant different either way.

 

This list is definitely not optimized and definitely silly with 3 knights. We did nearly wipe each other put completely with him getting the slight edge in the end... what can I say Horus is beast. That being said... he had the support of transports, sicaran Venator, a spartan, landspeeder typhoons, a pair of predators.... without these I don't know how much he could have done.

 

 

 

 

 

+++ Mech knights (3000pts) +++

 

++ Questoris Knight Crusade Army (Allied Detachment) (1270pts) ++

 

+ HQ (pts) +

 

Seneschal (pts) [Cerastus Knight-Castigator (pts)]

····Rules: Deflagrate, Flank Speed, Household Rank, Ideal Mission Commander, Master Knight, Tempest Attack

····Profiles:

········Cerastus Knight-Castigator: WS:4|BS:4|S:10|Front:13|Side:12|Rear:12|I:4|A:4|HP:6|Type:Super-heavy Walker|HH4: Conquest p306

········Ion Shield: Description:When deployed, and at the start of each subsequent opposing side's shooting phase, the Knight's controlling player must declare a facing for the ion shield. Choices are front, left, right, or rear. The Knight has a 4+ invulnerable save against all hits on that facing until the start of the opposing side's next shooting phase. Ion shields are repositioned before any attacks are carried out and may not protect against close combat attacks. |HH4: Conquest p301

········Castigator pattern bolt cannon: Range:36"|Strength:7|AP:3|Type:Heavy 8|HH4: Conquest p308

········Tempest Warblade: Range:-|Strength:10|AP:2|Type:Melee, Deflagrate, Tempest Attack, Sunder|HH4: Conquest p308

 

+ Troops (pts) +

 

Scion Martial (pts) [Cerastus Knight-Acheron (pts)]

····Rules: Flank Speed, Household Rank, Machine Destroyer, Objective Secured

····Profiles:

········Cerastus Knight-Acheron: WS:4|BS:4|S:10|Front:13|Side:12|Rear:12|I:4|A:4|HP:6|Type:Super-heavy Walker|HH4: Conquest p307

········Ion Shield: Description:When deployed, and at the start of each subsequent opposing side's shooting phase, the Knight's controlling player must declare a facing for the ion shield. Choices are front, left, right, or rear. The Knight has a 4+ invulnerable save against all hits on that facing until the start of the opposing side's next shooting phase. Ion shields are repositioned before any attacks are carried out and may not protect against close combat attacks. |HH4: Conquest p301

········Acheron pattern flame cannon: Range:Hellstorm|Strength:7|AP:3|Type:Ordnance 1|HH4: Conquest p308

········Reaper Chainfist: Range:-|Strength:D|AP:2|Type:Melee, Machine Destroyer|HH4: Conquest p308

 

+ Fast Attack (pts) +

 

Scion Dolorous (pts) [Cerastus Knight-Lancer (400pts)]

····Rules: Dolorous Charge, Flank Speed, Household Rank, Swift Strike, Worthy Foe

····Profiles:

········Cerastus Knight-Lancer: WS:4|BS:4|S:10|Front:13|Side:12|Rear:12|I:4|A:4|HP:6|Type:Super-heavy Walker|HH4: Conquest p305

········Ion Gauntlet Shield: Description:Operates as a Knights Ion Shield with the following exceptions: - May not protect Rear armour - Provides 5++ Invulnerable save in close combat - Forces close combat attacks by other Super-heavy Walkers or Gargantuan Creatures to suffer a -1 to hit. |HH3: Extermination p2310

········Cerastus Shock Lance (Melee): Range:-|Strength:D|AP:2|Type:Melee, Swift Strike|HH3: Extermination p231

········Cerastus Shock Lance (Ranged): Range:18"|Strength:7|AP:2|Type:Heavy 6, Concussive|HH3: Extermination p231

 

++ Mechanicum: Taghmata Omnissiah (Age of Darkness) (1730pts) ++

 

+ HQ (pts) +

 

Magos Prime (pts) [Archmagos Prime (pts), Cortex Controller (pts), Ordinator (pts), Rad Grenades (pts)]

····Rules: Battlesmith, Bombardment, Independent Character, Relentless, Stubborn, Tank Hunters, Wrecker

····Profiles:

········Archmagos Prime: Unit Type:Infantry (Character)|WS:4|BS:5|S:4|T:5|W:3|I:3|A:2|LD:10|Save:2+|HH3: Extermination p214

········Cortex Controller: Description:Presence of a Cortex Controller within 12" of a unit of friendly models with the Programmed Behaviour special rule at the start of any phase means that special rule is negated for that phase and their controlling player is free to use them as any other unit. |HH:LACAL p89

········Mechanicum Protectiva: Description:Provides 4++ Invulnerable save|HH3: Extermination p207

········Rad Grenades: Description:During a turn in which a unit equipped with Rad Grenades assaults or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to the Toughness until the end of the Assault Phase. This does affect the victim's Instant Death thresholds. |HH:LACAL p84

········Bombardment: Range:Unlimited|Strength:8|AP:3|Type:Ordnance D3, Large Blast, Pinning

 

+ Troops (910pts) +

 

Castellax Class Battle-Automata Maniple (pts) [Castellax (pts)]

····Rules: Cybernetic Resiliance, Cybernetica Cortex, Programmed Behaviour, Rage, Reactor Blast, Support Unit

····Castellax (pts) [Darkfire Cannon (pts)]

····Castellax (pts) [Darkfire Cannon (pts)]

····Profiles:

········Castellax: Unit Type:Monstrous Creature|WS:3|BS:4|S:6|T:7|W:4|I:3|A:2|LD:7|Save:3+|HH3: Extermination p223

········Atomantic Shielding: Description:Gains 5++ Invulnerable save from shooting attacks and explosions, and a 6++ Invulnerable save in close combat. In addition, add +1 to the range of explosions from the Reactor Blast rule. |HH3: Extermination p207

········Darkfire Cannon: Range:60"|Strength:7|AP:2|Type:Heavy 2, Lance, Blind, Gets Hot|HH3: Extermination p209

 

Castellax Class Battle-Automata Maniple (pts) [Castellax (pts)]

····Rules: Cybernetic Resiliance, Cybernetica Cortex, Programmed Behaviour, Rage, Reactor Blast, Support Unit

····Castellax (pts) [Darkfire Cannon (pts)]

····Castellax (pts) [Darkfire Cannon (pts)]

····Profiles:

········Castellax: Unit Type:Monstrous Creature|WS:3|BS:4|S:6|T:7|W:4|I:3|A:2|LD:7|Save:3+|HH3: Extermination p223

········Atomantic Shielding: Description:Gains 5++ Invulnerable save from shooting attacks and explosions, and a 6++ Invulnerable save in close combat. In addition, add +1 to the range of explosions from the Reactor Blast rule. |HH3: Extermination p207

········Darkfire Cannon: Range:60"|Strength:7|AP:2|Type:Heavy 2, Lance, Blind, Gets Hot|HH3: Extermination p209

 

Thallax Cohort (pts) [Photon Thruster (pts), 3x Thallax (pts)]

····Rules: Bulky, Djinn-sight, Stubborn

····Profiles:

········Thallax: Unit Type:Jet Pack Infantry|WS:3|BS:4|S:5|T:5|W:3|I:2|A:2|LD:8|Save:4+|HH3: Extermination p222

········Lorica Thallax: Description:Porvides 4+ Armour and FNP 6+ but may not make Sweeping Advances|HH1: Betrayal p240

········Lightning Gun: Range:18"|Strength:7|AP:5|Type:Heavy 1, Shred, Rending|HH1: Betrayal p240

········Photon Thruster Cannon: Range:48"|Strength:6|AP:2|Type:Heavy 2, Lance, Blind, Gets Hot!|HH1: Betrayal p240

 

Thallax Cohort (pts) [Photon Thruster (pts), 3x Thallax (pts)]

····Rules: Bulky, Djinn-sight, Stubborn

····Profiles:

········Thallax: Unit Type:Jet Pack Infantry|WS:3|BS:4|S:5|T:5|W:3|I:2|A:2|LD:8|Save:4+|HH3: Extermination p222

········Lorica Thallax: Description:Porvides 4+ Armour and FNP 6+ but may not make Sweeping Advances|HH1: Betrayal p240

········Lightning Gun: Range:18"|Strength:7|AP:5|Type:Heavy 1, Shred, Rending|HH1: Betrayal p240

········Photon Thruster Cannon: Range:48"|Strength:6|AP:2|Type:Heavy 2, Lance, Blind, Gets Hot!|HH1: Betrayal p240

 

+ Heavy Support (630pts) +

 

Krios Battle Tank Squadron (pts)

····Rules: Blessed Autosimulacra

····Krios (pts) [upgrade to Krios Venator Tank Destroyer (pts)]

····Profiles:

········Krios Venator: BS:4|Front:13|Side:12|Rear:10|HP:3|Type:Tank, Fast|HH3: Extermination p228

········Flare Shield: Description:A flare shield operates against shooting attacks that strike the vehicle's front arc. It reduces the strength of attacks by weapons with the Templae or Blast type by -2, and other shooting attacks by -1. A flare shield has no effect on attacks from close combat or with the Destroyer rule. |HH:LACAL p89

········Galvanic Traction Drive: Description:This unit must re-roll failed Dangerous Terrain tests. |HH3: Extermination p228

········Pulsar-fusil: Range:36"|Strength:9|AP:2|Type:Ordnance 4, Pinning|HH3: Extermination p228

 

Thanatar Class Siege-automata Maniple (pts) [Thanatar pts)]

····Rules: Cybernetica Cortex, Lumbering Advance, Plasma Wave, Reactor Blast

····Profiles:

········Thanatar: Unit Type:Monstrous Creature|WS:3|BS:4|S:8|T:8|W:4|I:2|A:2|LD:8|Save:2+|HH3: Extermination p227

········Atomantic Shielding: Description:Gains 5++ Invulnerable save from shooting attacks and explosions, and a 6++ Invulnerable save in close combat. In addition, add +1 to the range of explosions from the Reactor Blast rule. |HH3: Extermination p207

········Infravisor: Description:Confers Night Vision, but counts as I1 for blind tests. |HH3: Extermination p208

········Hellex Plasma Mortar (Fired on the move): Range:12" - 24"|Strength:8|AP:2|Type:Ordnance 1, Barrage, Large Blast, Plasma Wave|HH3: Extermination p227

········Hellex Plasma Mortar (Stationary): Range:12" - 48"|Strength:8|AP:2|Type:Ordnance 1, Barrage, Large Blast, Plasma Wave|HH3: Extermination p227

········Mauler Bolt Cannon: Range:24"|Strength:6|AP:3|Type:Heavy 3, Pinning|HH3: Extermination p209

 

Thanatar Class Siege-automata Maniple (pts) [Thanatar (pts)]

····Rules: Cybernetica Cortex, Lumbering Advance, Plasma Wave, Reactor Blast

····Profiles:

········Thanatar: Unit Type:Monstrous Creature|WS:3|BS:4|S:8|T:8|W:4|I:2|A:2|LD:8|Save:2+|HH3: Extermination p227

········Atomantic Shielding: Description:Gains 5++ Invulnerable save from shooting attacks and explosions, and a 6++ Invulnerable save in close combat. In addition, add +1 to the range of explosions from the Reactor Blast rule. |HH3: Extermination p207

········Infravisor: Description:Confers Night Vision, but counts as I1 for blind tests. |HH3: Extermination p208

········Hellex Plasma Mortar (Fired on the move): Range:12" - 24"|Strength:8|AP:2|Type:Ordnance 1, Barrage, Large Blast, Plasma Wave|HH3: Extermination p227

········Hellex Plasma Mortar (Stationary): Range:12" - 48"|Strength:8|AP:2|Type:Ordnance 1, Barrage, Large Blast, Plasma Wave|HH3: Extermination p227

········Mauler Bolt Cannon: Range:24"|Strength:6|AP:3|Type:Heavy 3, Pinning|HH3: Extermination p209

 

 

 

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[SkimaskMohawk]

OP I listed the 40k weapons to illustrate the value of those units, I wasn't trying to say you'd have to pay against them, just that units that can generate wounds are strong. Next you tell me I'm under valuing cover and use 2+ as an example, which is indeed awesome and can be used to survive a lot, but that's because you mathematically pass 83% of the wounds. Compare that to a 4+ save where you pass 50% instead and there's a very large difference. Against 10 wounds you you'd on average lose 1 guy with a 2+ save compared to 5 with a 4+.

[GreyCrow]

@Marshal Loss : I'm not trying to be antagonistic in my previous posts, but I've found that challenging advices drives people to explicitely say the reasoning behind their advice which is a lot more helpful. For example, your point about Drop Pods is very good (I keep forgetting that people don't have to disembark like in 40k... by the way, the fact that they aren't forced to disembark but can still shoot out of it is such an idiotic rule. From a model standpoint, this makes absolutely no sense).

I disagree with your points about Fliers however, being very used to play flier heavy and against flier heavy forces, their maneuvrability isn't as good as you would think (unless they drop in Hover mode). I've played countless games where the fliers were either forced to move into a position where they can't shoot effectively, because any position where they could would mean they were destroyed.

Regarding the fleeing units, I'm not sure where that would come from, due to Vexillas and the Legion Standard. Maybe I'm reading the rules wrong though, so I'll take another look.

Like I said, Guilliman is the weakest unit of the list. I'll probably be removing him.

The only reason why I didn't include much support units in the army was because the support units don't really strike me as potent or resilient enough to go for a combined arms approach (although they do some more potent than their 40k counterpart without the shadow of a doubt). I am very probably wrong in that regard however :p

___

Here's a modified list :

Praetor - Iron Halo, Volkite Charger, Paragon Blade

Master Of Signal

Roboute Guilliman (LOW)

20 Tactical Marines - Artificer Armour, Vexilla, Power Sword

20 Tactical Marines - Artificer Armour, Vexilla, Power Sword

20 Tactical Marines - Artificer Armour, Vexilla, Plasma Pistol

10 Support Marines - 10 Plasmaguns

5 Cataphractii - 5 Combi-Plasmas, 5 Power Swords

5 Invictarus Suzerains - 1 Invictarus Ancient with Company Banner

1 Contemptor - Kheres/Power Fists (The Dreadnoughts seem terribly overpriced in this game)

1 Apothecary - (Attached to one Tactical Squad, the one that will be chosen to make a daring advance and will take more shots than the others)

Sicaran Venator - Extra Lascannons

Heavy Support Squad - 5 Lascannons, Augury

____

Switched to 20 men Tactical Squads (god this is going to be even worse against artillery...), 10 men support squad and removed the melta squad (which was way too short ranged like you guys said rightly). 10 men squads do seem a lot more flexible frankly, but I'm so sick of the Rhinos and I'm not sure I want to invest points into Land Raiders for the Terminators and the Invictarus. That would mean 500 points and I'm not sure it's worth it.

I'm really not sure how the extra anti-tank power is going to help. Added a Sicaran Venator rather than an extra Heavy Support Squad in order to have an infantry based anti-tank, and a vehicle based anti-tank.

[Slips]

Have you thought about replacing your Cataphractii and Invictarus with CML Fulmentarus for more Long Ranged Pain?

[GreyCrow]

Have you thought about replacing your Cataphractii and Invictarus with CML Fulmentarus for more Long Ranged Pain?

Funny you should mention that, I actually thought about that just today ! I took you guys' suggestions into account and rewrote the list completely. The goal was also to use the Betrayal at Calth as a base (I can get away with most of the force for 2 boxes and some conversion hehe). C&C welcome, even if I didn't feel like so early thread.

Here it is :

Remus Ventanus

Master of Signal

Contemptor - Kheres/Fist

Contemptor - Multi-Melta/Fist

3 Apothecaries - Augury Scanners

20 Tactical Marines - Vexilla, Artificer Armour, Power Sword

20 Tactical Marines - Vexilla, Artificer Armour, Plasma Pistol

20 Tactical Marines - Vexilla, Artificer Armour, Power Fist

10 Fulmentarus - 10 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 10 Power Fists (for 50 points, might as well make a melee deterrent for this squad)

Whirlwind Scorpius

Whirlwind Scorpius

LOW

Roboute Guilliman

____

So, the idea is to gently run up the board and get control while the Scorpiuses and Fulmentarus pound from afar. Obviously, Apothecaries going with the 20 Tactical Marines, to give them some more survivability. The Contemptors escort the Tactical Squads and draw fire away from them, the Fulmentarus act as an escort for Guilliman and benefit from his Cognis Signum. In this game he acts more as giving orders to the army while it advances then charging in to deliver the killing blow.

Ventanus is there to give the Fearless Bubble to some place of the map. And Whirlwind Scorpiuses do what Scorpiuses do best, shelling areas using the Cognis of both the MOS and Bob Guilliman.

The gear on the Sergeants is more to differentiate them than anything else, besides they don't take much points on the list.