My take on fluff

[Archlich]

Here is my (far fetched and most likely not supported by GW) take on fluff:

Basics: "short" term goals of Chaos Gods and Emperor are not conflicted at all (and they are aware of that). Goal of both parties would be for humanity to survive long enought to become fully psyhic race. I am saying "short" because althought that would require millenia - this is still phase 1.

As far as I remember older fluff (and HH books) number of psykers is growing, and Prospero could be an example of more or less stable full\majority psyker society (so it is possible). Imperium culls psyker number every day (for practical reasons), but still more and more of them are born "every day".

 

Imperium\Emperor might believe that humanity being psyker race will be able to better fight chaos (look at Eldar - ok they mess up galaxy with Slanesh, but now they are rathercrafty in fighting Chaos. Also exhibit B - Grey Knights)

Obviously deamons love psykers - big chance to get into our reality. But there might be also more complicated calculations behind that. Simple daemons would love to get into our world, have a proverbial drink, fistfight and some "fun", but what chaos really want is to get into our reality.

Obviously Eye of Terror and Maelstorm are evidence that this is perfectly possible, but it has some VERY nasty effect on living things and phisical matter. Now if you remember in Lorgar messanger of Chaos Gods told of rather different plan - symbiosis between species. Eldar were their first candidate, and both parties failed - Eldar panicked, and rightfully so, as hordes of daemons poured from warp and destroyed the reality around them. Humanity would be plan B - there is plenty of Humans (populating entire galaxy), they are compatible with chaos aspects (imagine ork doing Tzeentch), they have strong impact\resonance in the warp.

We can see in Lorgar that SMs posessed by daemons are in kinda symbiosis state - daemon is trying to actively protect it's host, SM can still think by himself and control his body. This is very different from normal human posession, but maybe normal humans are not strong enought to accomodate daemonic energies of their "guest"? Or maybe it has something to do with the fact, that most of the posessions (of humans, not manifestations) are actually caused by inquisition - not so friendly to parties involved. Maybe humanity as fully psyhic race (or dominantly psyhic race) will be getting chance to be in symbiosis with chaos beings - second eye of terror might not be an option.

 

So let's look chronologically: Emperor got to Molech, promised something to chaos Gods - maybe creation os SMs as perfect hosts for chaos. Gods gave him their power. Entire story about Emperor cheating them might or might not be true (primarchs being lost might be part of deeper plan). Let's assume hovewer that Emp double crossed chaos and wanted utopia of science\starving thing. Gods retaliate by turning Horus against him. Horus comes to Molech, goes to warp, gets power. Even at that point gods plan to betay him. He fights Emp, he is winning, gods abandon him ("they fled from his mind afraid of Emp power" seems far fetched to me at best) - Emp moves for the kill. He is put into Golden Throne. What gods get:

1. No more scientific utopia thingy - everything goes other way around almoust from day 1 of Emp being on golden throne.

2. Imperium is NOT ADAVCING AT ALL - this is probably the most masterfully crafted conspiracy.

3. Humanity (still needed for their plan) has immortal protector who guides it throught the warp and generally helps humanity survive.

4. Chaos Gods gained some nice servants (cult troops, rather "loyal" to their patron), and some questionable allies (Black Legion, constantly creating problems for them due to their attacks on Empire). Those servants can be used as last resort to attack Necrons.

 

We already know that chaos gods don't want for Abbadon to succed in destroying Imperium: they keep him in power, but demonic primarchs never help him in his invasions. Even more - every time he is making some gains - warp storm dissipate, he gets betrayed, infighting starts... 14th black crusade will probably end with demons attacking his armies.

Look at tyrranic wars - first one was won just because Dominus Astra overloaded it's warp engines and summoned demons - which proceed to destroy Tyranids, not human\SM fleet.

Finally they don't even hold grudge against Emperor - Fabious Bile is\was trying to clone his body "We destroyed old one, but have replacement. No hard feelings:) "

[Loesh]

Here is my (far fetched and most likely not supported by GW) take on fluff:

 

 

 

Yep, that pretty much sums it up.

 

I mean just as an example, the Daemon Primarchs ARE helping Abaddon with the 13th Black Crusade and have been seen helping him before, and just because the fluff hasn't mentioned them doesn't mean they have just been sitting on their ass for 10,000 years. It just means they have all been...relatively...inactive.

 

Also, it's extremely hard to simplify the Chaos Gods intentions into they 'Do or Don't' want Abaddon to win, they are the collective subconcious of the entire human race given a terrifying eldritch form. Whatever their thoughts on the universe are completely unknowable to us, and to try to peer into the mind of a god would drive a person stark raving mad. How Chaos Space Marines view the Emperor is also hard to say because every single one of them has a different motivation we don't even know WHY Fabius wants to clone the Emperor, only that he does.

 

It seems unlikely to me that the Emperor desired this for the Imperium, it's just the product of one mistake after another at a critical juncture.

[Prot]

They (Black Library) should really come up with a mechanism to resurrect or involve loyal Primarchs when this thing finally concludes. The ongoing theme I see is Chaos dudes don't die ,they just get more powerful, and from behind the Wizard of Oz's curtain they are pulling leavers. The same mechanism should exist on the other side of the war, thus keeping a stalemate going forever.

 

Things have changed over the years, this is another area that doesn't have to be so bloody static. The HH is the story that people like.... people love it. The era of the Imperium doing really well, and then the war of brothers is what people really seem to want.

 

I've read nearly all of those novels, and I go back to era of reading really poorly written 40K novels, and we have this wonderful sandbox now, but I find it really hard to get into 'current' timeline books now.

 

I've re-read some of the Ultramarines Damnos stuff.... re-read some of my favorite books of the current era, and I have to admit it doesn't hold me like the HH stuff does. And I would imagine sales could support this idea (I'm guessing HH book sales support this.)

 

The fluff is static and needs some help. Inevitably I think it's an amazing background story but then what? We go back to a shrinking Imperium and Chaos marines killing each other over petty stuff again? Sometimes I'd really like to sit across from the guy... or the guys who make those final decisions. I guarantee it would be a very interesting conversation.

[Loesh]

The point of 40k is that the stalemate has ended, the Imperium is finally going to die after so long and I find the attempts to make the stalemate continue far more horrific then the fluff that cements it's end. I.E The Star Child and Mechanicus making deals with the Dark Eldar to maintain the Golden Throne.

[Olis]

The fluff is static and needs some help. Inevitably I think it's an amazing background story but then what? We go back to a shrinking Imperium and Chaos marines killing each other over petty stuff again? Sometimes I'd really like to sit across from the guy... or the guys who make those final decisions. I guarantee it would be a very interesting conversation.

 

I believe the 'guy' in question would be one Alan Merrett. He's the head of intellectual property development. ;)

[Vesper]

They (Black Library) should really come up with a mechanism to resurrect or involve loyal Primarchs when this thing finally concludes.

They did, with VULKAN LIVES. And it's probably one of the worst part of the whole licence.

 

 

The ongoing theme I see is Chaos dudes don't die ,they just get more powerful, and from behind the Wizard of Oz's curtain they are pulling leavers.

Highly debatable. One could argue that DRAIGO LIV...

The "Chaos dudes" have been painted as being quite weak since their "ascension".

 

 

Things have changed over the years, this is another area that doesn't have to be so bloody static. The HH is the story that people like.... people love it. The era of the Imperium doing really well, and then the war of brothers is what people really seem to want.

I used to love the Heresy, back before the HH series. Now I find it boring and messy. Want another book on the Shattered Legions ? With dinosaurs ?

 

The fluff is static and needs some help. Inevitably I think it's an amazing background story but then what? We go back to a shrinking Imperium and Chaos marines killing each other over petty stuff again?

The Imperium is losing. And that is actually what makes it interesting to me. The stalemate in finally over and things go to a meaningful point in time. And 40k feels way bigger than 30k where everyone is either a space marine or a perpetual.

[Loesh]

We just need to throw all the loyalist Primarchs into a volcano. 

[davisbe]

The "Chaos dudes" have been painted as being quite weak since their "ascension".

Really? 'Cause, I recall this "Angron" fella being very not-weak when he decimated Armageddon and nearly an entire Brotherhood of Grey Knights... 

[Firepower]

Disconnected from the going-ons of the galaxy, definitely.  But I don't think "weak" is accurate.

 

All in all I have to agree with Loesh's initial reply.

[Leonaides]

in cethey becam edaemon primarchs they dont really have the same drive or interest in the material plane... Why travel to far-flung worlds to reap skull swhen you can just step sideways in the warp and butcher a load of Slannesh Daemons for their skulls/whatevers, why try and come up with new tortures to try on such weak things as humans/elder when you can torture a daemon for eternity and it will not die, no matter what you do to it, why struggle with the laws of the physical realm when in the warp your sorcery is so much more powerful and less restrained?

[Loesh]

Disconnected from the going-ons of the galaxy, definitely. But I don't think "weak" is accurate.

All in all I have to agree with Loesh's initial reply.

Initial? What? You don't want Ferrus Manus to have his resurrection in 'Ironfire'?

Truth be told the cartoonishly awful 'Deathfire' was the perfect name for that book, it completely encapsulates how bad the rest of the experience will be.

[Prot]

 

They (Black Library) should really come up with a mechanism to resurrect or involve loyal Primarchs when this thing finally concludes.

They did, with VULKAN LIVES. And it's probably one of the worst part of the whole licence.

 

 

 

This is just trickery and you know it. I agree it was a tough read... but I also bet he's still going to end up dead. 

 

 

 

Things have changed over the years, this is another area that doesn't have to be so bloody static. The HH is the story that people like.... people love it. The era of the Imperium doing really well, and then the war of brothers is what people really seem to want.

I used to love the Heresy, back before the HH series. Now I find it boring and messy. Want another book on the Shattered Legions ? With dinosaurs ?

 

 

 

 

I didn't mean to request more dinosaur novels... what I meant was I think Primarchs (even if not at the forefront) add to the overall attraction. Even the first HH books hardly had an real dialogue from a Primarch. It was just voice in the background, a passing glance. Almost like everyone was afraid to give these guys a voice. This changed, and to me the books got a lot more interesting to see how the direct descendants of the Emperor's Lab acted and talked.  That's just me though... I realize this brings up lots of tension in the forums when I mention it. lol

 

 

 

Loesh -The point of 40k is that the stalemate has ended, the Imperium is finally going to die after so long and I find the attempts to make the stalemate continue far more horrific then the fluff that cements it's end. I.E The Star Child and Mechanicus making deals with the Dark Eldar to maintain the Golden Throne.

 

I don't think that is the point at all. I don't think we'll ever see that. I think that's a bigger pipe dream than me wanting to see some survivor Primarchs. Don't misunderstand... I don't want the stalemate, but it's basically the whole premise. Everyone is weaker, some get stronger (Tau) some just won't die (Eldar) and some have come back for more (Necrons) etc, etc... in the end it's just one big fat, overtime sporting event that no one ends up winning. So in that event, I want to see some Primarch action post heresy. 

 

Some of this stuff has been left open. It's definitely plausible. 

 

Hypothetical: What happens when the plug is pulled and the Emperor dies? There are a lot of good theories on this, but I really don't think it would change one tiny little thing about the war being a deadlock tie between a chunk of races. (And that includes Chaos)

 

Hypothetical: What if there was a plan B? What if the Emperor had a way to reincarnate through some massive experiment he was working on? What if he had other Primarchs? Failed ones that are 3 headed babies, but some that took longer to mature that could be hatching in some special hidden space station which is being babysat by Malcador? Or something huge, waiting for the right moment under Titan?

 

There's so many ways we could move this along and not lose it all. But we all know it gets a little boring after all the Primarchs and the final conflict on terra.... the 'stall' to the finish line shows us this too, because they're milking the heck out of the 'good stuff' (IE: dinosaur books) until it runs sour. (I don't blame them.)

 

This is about the journey far more than that final battle (For me) because after that, it's all down hill. Like I said I read a ton of these books. I know lots of you do too. Do you find a book about a skirmish between some orks and Astra as interesting as two Primarchs clashing in a heated battle with fate of mankind in the balance? 

 

(Off Topic: of there was an offshoot, I wouldn't go the Dinosaur direction. Heck I'd rather see a time when the Emperor walked amongst us, maybe bashing some eldar upside the head. )

[b1soul]

Kaiju primarchs...I am down

[Vesper]

 

The "Chaos dudes" have been painted as being quite weak since their "ascension".

Really? 'Cause, I recall this "Angron" fella being very not-weak when he decimated Armageddon and nearly an entire Brotherhood of Grey Knights... 

 

I don't remember Angron doing all the killing.

We know (in depth) of only two major actions daemon primarchs have taken out of the Eye. Angron got slayed and Mortarion was... well, you know.

Far, far from impressive. It's more akin to the fate of Chaos Lord #985456454 in a Codex : Space Marines background entry.

 

So they've been portrayed as being quite weak, yeah. I can understand that. They're out of their element, they're out of the big picture, they don't really matter anymore. Their time has passed and I'm fine with that, hell, I even like that aspect of them. But it really feels like daemonic ascension is nothing more than the most crippling handicap ever. And the daemon primarchs feel so useless and pathetic I wonder why Chaos Space Marine #6348451 or Abaddon or whoever in the Eye haven't killed one.

[Firepower]

The "Chaos dudes" have been painted as being quite weak since their "ascension".

Really? 'Cause, I recall this "Angron" fella being very not-weak when he decimated Armageddon and nearly an entire Brotherhood of Grey Knights...

I don't remember Angron doing all the killing.

We know (in depth) of only two major actions daemon primarchs have taken out of the Eye. Angron got slayed and Mortarion was... well, you know.

Far, far from impressive.

Didn't Magnus take a swing at Fenris?

Granted, they lost that fight, too. But to be a bit fairer, if one of the Demon Primarchs actually crushed Armageddon, or Fenris, or any other enormously important planet in the Imperium, it would be a bit too decisive an event for a fluff that eternally lives on two minutes til midnight. And yet, it wouldn't make much sense to draw the Primarchs, baddest of Chaos' baddies, out into the galaxy to expunge more meaningless targets.

[Lord Blackwood]

The "Chaos dudes" have been painted as being quite weak since their "ascension".

Really? 'Cause, I recall this "Angron" fella being very not-weak when he decimated Armageddon and nearly an entire Brotherhood of Grey Knights...

I don't remember Angron doing all the killing.

We know (in depth) of only two major actions daemon primarchs have taken out of the Eye. Angron got slayed and Mortarion was... well, you know.

Far, far from impressive.

Didn't Magnus take a swing at Fenris?

Granted, they lost that fight, too. But to be a bit fairer, if one of the Demon Primarchs actually crushed Armageddon, or Fenris, or any other enormously important planet in the Imperium, it would be a bit too decisive an event for a fluff that eternally lives on two minutes til midnight. And yet, it wouldn't make much sense to draw the Primarchs, baddest of Chaos' baddies, out into the galaxy to expunge more meaningless targets.

They Technically Lost that fight

Magnus wanted to stop a particular Wolf Priest from being able to stabalize the Canis Helix which would have allowed the creation of successor chapters of the space wolves. It was a pretty important project at the time so Magnus killed that guy and destroyed all his research which hasant been started again since.

In Battle of the Fang its shown that the Thousand Sons just really hate the space wolves and for some of them its straight up just an attack out of spite wanting them to bleed for what they did to Prospero , though as above Magnus had a far more important plan that he did actually succeed in getting done ontop of killing not only the current Great Wolf but a Wolf Lord who held the Fang and Nearly killing Bjorn too.

As far as Angron and Armageddon is concerned , Dudes who will be back- Angron , Dudes who wont be back - Dem greyknights that gave up thier lives to banish him

Firepower put it very well , the fluff is at 2min to midnight mode so the recent campaigns havent really been much

Citing the Alric Prime Campaign that involved Orks vs Imperial Knights , Space wolves and Imperial Guard

Logan takes Ragnar and Krom ( along with thier great companies ) to this knight world to fight the orks , they do that , no one important dies despite it being teased that Khorne particularly wants Logans head , and btw SUDDENLY DEMONS BOYS !!! ( great campaign Hour of the Wolf is a very fun read )

Then you have Shield of Baal

Nids are nomming down on the shield worlds around the blood angel homeworld Blood angels are like " well i guess we gotta stop em , hey flesh tearers you wanna get it in?" and the flesh tearers are like " WE ALWAYS WANNA GET IT IN " and they go and dont.... save any of those worlds .... Just deny the biomass to the nids , with help from the necrons no less ( cause lawl wut ? ) Dante litterly sits there at the end of the campaign and is all "yo Sanguinor what the hell are we gonna do " and the Sanguinor is all " Okay so I got a plan " - Campaign end , no real resolution the nids are still apparently on thier way to Baal

This seems to be par for the course for GW now is to give us small pockets of stuff going on that by and large really have no impact on getting us closer to midnight.

Its like SUP you see this box set that you can split with yer buddy and get a good savings on some models ? Well yea we wrote a story round that , buy some books !

( Personal Note I really liked The Red Waagh / Hour of the Wolf Sanctus reach Campaign mentioned above , it was amazing )

[Firepower]

The "Chaos dudes" have been painted as being quite weak since their "ascension".

Really? 'Cause, I recall this "Angron" fella being very not-weak when he decimated Armageddon and nearly an entire Brotherhood of Grey Knights...

I don't remember Angron doing all the killing.

We know (in depth) of only two major actions daemon primarchs have taken out of the Eye. Angron got slayed and Mortarion was... well, you know.

Far, far from impressive.

Didn't Magnus take a swing at Fenris?

Granted, they lost that fight, too. But to be a bit fairer, if one of the Demon Primarchs actually crushed Armageddon, or Fenris, or any other enormously important planet in the Imperium, it would be a bit too decisive an event for a fluff that eternally lives on two minutes til midnight. And yet, it wouldn't make much sense to draw the Primarchs, baddest of Chaos' baddies, out into the galaxy to expunge more meaningless targets.

They Technically Lost that fight

Magnus wanted to stop a particular Wolf Priest from being able to stabalize the Canis Helix which would have allowed the creation of successor chapters of the space wolves. It was a pretty important project at the time so Magnus killed that guy and destroyed all his research which hasant been started again since.

Well then there you go. That's a significant win for Magnus and Chaos.

[Vesper]

If my memory serves me well, the bulk of the Thousand Sons and the entire Spireguard got stopped by the Space Wolves' reserve and aspirants :p.

But yeah, I agree, it is a good example of a daemon Primarch being portrayed in a decent way.

[Lord Blackwood]

If my memory serves me well, the bulk of the Thousand Sons and the entire Spireguard got stopped by the Space Wolves' reserve and aspirants .

But yeah, I agree, it is a good example of a daemon Primarch being portrayed in a decent way.

They were more stopped by Fenris than anything else. A whole great company was left at the fang. So a 12th of the Chapter ( 13th if you must be picky) Fenris has no PDF but they do have Aettguard which function in a similar capacity all of whom are centralized in the fang. In order to survive against the Thousand sons and thier huge warhost the Space Wolves pretty much made them earn every inch they got before they reached the gates and then after they got inside there were tons of obstacles from terrain to well placed raiding packs of space wolves butchering the initial ground waves and the battle for the gate was one that took a ton of attrition to just get them to the front door. THEN the space wolves blew up the door so they had to dig through that.

When they got inside they had to deal with the runes of aversion that the space wolves have set up to dampen enemy psychic power which made things difficult to them and fighting an enemy dug in , inside a fortress mountain that they knew and the thousand suns didint. The situation was so dire they woke up bjorn and several other dreadnoughts because the incursion was that bad. And in the depths of the fang failed aspirants who were a mix of beast and servitor and as deadly as you would imagine a barely tamed wolf servitor the size of a full grown lion to be also proved problematic.

It wasant so much that they got dead stopped as they got slowed down enough for the ENTIRE rest of the chapter to show up. And even then Magus had accomplished his primary goal and killed the chapters leader almost killed its greatest leader outside the primarch and given the wolves a bloody nose. Sure the Thousand sons human forces didint really make it off the planet in any capacity but most of the rubricae ( who were portrayed as efficient monsters even in close combat ) and a lot of sorcs survived to get outta there. I would argue that the Thousand Sons walked away pretty well from that engagement and the wolves were written in battle of the fang well enough to make it so they could win that battle and still lose it without looking weak.

I will agree to take issue with the maner in which Magnus is written in the book though because it tends to show him as a bit indecisive and a little broken emotionally /mentally which ends up with him taking damage a Primarch probably shouldnt , but there certainly is no doubt that had he had his head on straight he wouldnt have had any trouble with anyone in the Fang Really. I think it was done to show some complexity to him from what ive read in the HH novels and War of the Fang he really is suppoused to be more complex than I understand him. Im just a Space Wolves player so I hate him too much to care. And the black Templar in me only wishes to see him and his leigion of witches burn.