Emperor's Furor Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 We have quite a few Primarchs out now and there's certainly some beasts, but there's also some pretty "weak" Primarchs in terms of personal protection (of course they do make up for it in other areas, like army buffs) but I was wondering where you think the up coming Primarchs will rank amongst their brothers, specifically the Lion? For me the Lion has always kind of been middle of the ground, but recent encountered with the likes of Night Haunter have made me question whether he's actually a bit further up the pecking order. What do you think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 High...the guy brawled with Russ for a day without getting punked When he got down to business , he left Curze bleeding out on the ground. This is my opinion...cuz in his 1st fight with Curze, I think he underestimates his foe When he plays cat and mouse with Curze on his ship...he's able to outmaneuver Curze (but his vox betrays him...kinda cliched but mainly cuz Curze has to survive because of plot) To me, the Lion should be no weaker than Fulgrim and the Khan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 The Lion doesn't need to be the best. He's just the best man for the job ;) I honestly think he'll be pretty strong in combat due to some weird characteristics like Guilliman, but ultimately, he'll be a big buffer. Likely 4+ to seize the initiative, charge bonuses, and force manipulation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_out Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I see his buffs being a major bonus to him. Combat wise I see a similar statline to Curze with slightly less attacks for slightly higher strength? I'm eager to find out regardless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I imagine he'll get some kind of significant duelling bonus in single combat (challenges) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I can see him having corax like knight stances. Two handed great sword, +2 strength, rampage, murderous strike, armourbane And a rule called "by any means necessary" that allows the lion to strike at initiative 10 in the first round of a challenge, but any attack targering him that turn gain +1 to hit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 The Lion should be a fantastic swordsman, possibly one of the strongest in terms of a duelist. He should also bolster the army in a way to represent his Tactical planning. If I was writing his rules... Special Rules: Primarch, Bulky, Independent Character, Sire of the Dark Angels WS8 BS5 STR7 T6 W6 I6 A5 LD10 2+ 440points -Lion's Blade: Str User, Ap2, Mastercrafted, Shred, Two Handed, Punishing Strike Punishing Strike: May halve the number of attacks (rounding up). If so, Blade adds +3 to Str and becomes AP1 -Lion's Roar: Weapon counts as a Mastercrafted Plasma Pistol -Armour of Caliban: The Armour of Caliban confers a 2+ save and a 4+ Invul. The Invul becomes 3+ when fighting in a challenge to reflect the Lion's incredible defensive combat skills when dueling against a singular opponent. -Sire of the Dark Angels: Lion El Johnson may chose any Warlord trait from the Strategic traits found in the 40k rulebook. Also, D3 units in the army gain Infiltrate, Interceptor or Implacable Advance. In addition, an army containing Lion El Johnson may re roll attempts to seize the Initiative. -Will of Caliban: Lion El Johnson may re roll failed Deny the Witch tests. Something along those lines... *Edit* Altered stats and weapon as per suggestions :-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Definitely high WS and I, but not as high as the top tier speed of the Khan and Sanguinius. Russ was said to be stronger of the two, and the Lion, faster of the two. I'd almost wager that the Lion gets a special rule to get d3 HoW hits with his weapon (I.E. Hits at I10) if he charges. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 He can kill his own Chaplains to generate Warp Charges for his Librarians Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caillum Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 -Lion's Blade: Str User, Ap2, Mastercrafted, Shred, Punishing Strike Punishing Strike: May half the number of attacks (rounding up). If so, Blade adds +3 to Str and becomes AP1 -Lion's Roar: Weapon counts as a Mastercrafted Plasma Pistol I think most of what you put in there was really good actually, but either make "Lion's Roar" a plasma blaster or make "Lion's Blade" 2-handed or a Specialist Weapon. Probably the latter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Carnelian Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I think the Lion should have both great buffs and great offensive capabilities, but while we joke about him killing his own guys, he should be the first primarch with serious force drawbacks to counteract his power. No allies, no orbital strikes, something that demonstrates his often-crippling devotion to secrecy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 He can kill his own Chaplains to generate Warp Charges for his Librarians The warp charge pool cares not from whence the warp charges flow!!! I hope that the 1st gains bonuses to plasma/volkite weaponry. Like reroll 1's of gets hot and reroll failed deflagrate wounds. But that's a bit on a tangent (pssst I called it "Weapons of a Bygone Age"). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I want a rule called "Did you see this coming?" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Hm, she should get the following rule: No sense of humour - If the Lion is locked in close combat, each time the opponent laughs, Lion gets an automatic hit with S10 AP1 against his current close combat target. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 He's going to be tough to write I think. He's got to be level with Curze and Russ in combat and pretty much on par with Guilliman as a general. I think it could be very easy to make him too good. Not that I'd complain. On a side note, I'd like to see him with sword and shield. No primarch has done that yet. As for the others... Khan seems the easiest to do. I think he'll be a glass cannon, insane initiative and attacks but not so tough (for a primarch). Magnus is probably going to be a devastating psyker but pretty average in combat (it's the only way to balance him). Russ and Sanguinius will be the same problem as the Lion. Hard to balance, especially with the expectations of these two. I have confidence in Alan Bligh though, he will find a way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I think although his martial prowess needs to be shown either through WS or attacks or both, he's not as fast as the "fast" primarchs so he should be I6. He also needs something in the rules to represent his arrogance so needs a negative aspect in the vein of what wolf pack said where his opponent get plus one to hit because the lion thinks he can do the business straight away. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheForgottenAngel Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 My gut feeling is that points wise he will be the most expensive primarch for the reasons stated above. He is a master duelist and strategist. I could see him get a rule that he can not join a unit due to his lone wolf nature. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I actually think they need an adjustment on the allies matrix to make them a little less co-operative with the other legions. Represent that "we got this" kinda mentality. If he has an equal stat line to Curze but with more strategic based rule buffs , I'd be happy. Anything more is great. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 31, 2015 Author Share Posted October 31, 2015 I think the legion will get something to do with more archaic weaponry, for the Lion himself I think he'll end up being a "better" Rogal Dorn, mixing both tactical ability with close quarter prowess. I've not seen Guilliman's rules yet though, though I imagine he'll end up something like him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Lots of CHOOM? Thats the First Legion for me! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Centurion Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I thought the Dark Angels were like addicted to plasma? Not choom? But that would be cool to have a choom-y Primarch Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 No choom in 40K. If you dont have choom, you go plasma. First Legion has to be pretty kitted out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I thought the Dark Angels were like addicted to plasma? Not choom? But that would be cool to have a choom-y Primarch They just have a lot more of the esoteric weapons I think (Volkites, plasma) but because there isn't Volkites in 40k they just have lots of plasma. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 *coughWeaponsofaBygoneAgecoughcough* ;) I personally made that rule to show that a lot of the 1st legion arsenal had handcrafted weapons from Mars that had much higher levels of craftsmanship and function than the other legions. Similiar to how mkII armor was handmade and sometimes preferred over the later marks. There'll be probably some sort of rule that if the Lion doesn't beat anyone up in a challenge, you lose a victory point. Somewhat close to the Alpha Legion's Martial Hubris rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Knight stances: Guarded Tower + 1 invulnerable, +1 toughness - 2 WS Righteous Crusader + 1 A, Cleave (unsaved wounds cause an additional attack, cannot trigger itself) Valourous Champion - (challenge only) +1 WS, prefered enemy (character) crippling strike (wounds suffered cause the model to lose 1 WS and Initiative for 1 round. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/#findComment-4212525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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