Frater Cornelius Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 My gut feeling is that points wise he will be the most expensive primarch for the reasons stated above. He is a master duelist and strategist. I could see him get a rule that he can not join a unit due to his lone wolf nature. No. Horus will always be the most expensive and best CC primarch. I do not think that will change. His role in the HH is too iconic to allow another Primarch steal the spotlight. I think the only one able to beat him will be the Emperor, should he ever get rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4212530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 The Lion should actually have some interesting, detrimental rule relating to his Legion to illustrate the potential devides and his inability to read or understand people well. "Roll a D6 for each infantry unit in detachment that Lion El Johnson hasn't joined prior to deployment - on a roll of 1 that unit counts as desperate allies and can not score objectives" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4212609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I'm expecting to see him somewhere between 435-455, but he won't be the most expensive Primarch. Not more expensive than Horus, Sanguinius or Magnus, at least. (Magnus is an odd one, in that he'll probably run some ML4 shenanigans and have a jacked-up price tag because of it regardless of what else he does... we'll see) Still, he'll probably be an incredibly capable duelist with some powerful wargear. Maybe not the best buffs on the field, but excellent strategic/deployment bonuses, possibly combined with a smaller disadvantage like the one Ishagu suggested above. His Campaign Strategic Warlord Traits from Conquest are Master of Timing + 1 Random, so we do know FW is acknowledging him as "adept at launching large-scale, theatre-wide operations." Possibly a not-so-great number of attacks (4-5 w/ two-handed sword?) but AP1/2 at initiative, combined with a high I/WS and probably Murderous Strike. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4212624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I'd go for lower leadership than typical for a primarch and a negative effect for allies. He racked up more victories than anyone but Horus, cant see the negative being too strong. Glad I'm not the one who has to write the rule! :) My Lion would be hugely OP with a "should have been me" rule. If Horus is on the table, The Lion becomes bitter and mopey and cannot move. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4212681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 The Lion should actually have some interesting, detrimental rule relating to his Legion to illustrate the potential devides and his inability to read or understand people well. "Roll a D6 for each infantry unit in detachment that Lion El Johnson hasn't joined prior to deployment - on a roll of 1 that unit counts as desperate allies and can not score objectives" Maybe something to represent the Terran/Calibanite split? Terrans are veterans but suffer this rule if the Lion is on the board? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4212802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Its more liely there will be a rule limitting the use of veterans ina DA army and using more tacticals etc, to represent that very few calibanites have managed to get t veteran status, plus The Lion, does not keep many Terrans (veterans) around, as he fears they will second-guess his orders. Beyond that a top duellist. Maybe a -1 or 2 to initiative for using a massive broadsword, but with very good defensive capabilities, or trades all attacks for one Lightning strike at Initiative 11 Strength +2 or something.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4212918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Conflicting sources say he personally commanded them more and more because he didnt trust them. Personally, the Lion and the Ist Legion are one of the worst written Legions at the moment, I wouldnt be hugely bothered if FW went in and clean slated them. Id like to see him and Russ be almost identical in the statline, just equipment and special rules the difference. I know "the Lion was slightly faster and Russ was slightly stronger" but I think the difference is too negligable to be represented properly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4212931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Its more liely there will be a rule limitting the use of veterans ina DA army and using more tacticals etc, to represent that very few calibanites have managed to get t veteran status, plus The Lion, does not keep many Terrans (veterans) around, as he fears they will second-guess his orders. Beyond that a top duellist. Maybe a -1 or 2 to initiative for using a massive broadsword, but with very good defensive capabilities, or trades all attacks for one Lightning strike at Initiative 11 Strength +2 or something.. If we're to use real world examples (I know, everything goes out the window when I say that :P), he shouldn't lose speed from using a two handed sword. More likely the case, he should actually be faster since he'd have reach with the longer blade. Often times, we fall into this trap that movies portray weapons as being insanely heavy :) maybe if he was using something like a claymore would he be remotely slowed down, but even something up to Montante size is able to be wielded quite quickly. Plus, he straps the dang sword to his hip, so that tells me it can't logically be too big (for primarch size I mean). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 1, 2015 Author Share Posted November 1, 2015 Poor Rogal Dorn and his two handed chainsword who attacks last, let's hope the Lion doesn't fall into the same category :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_out Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Poor Rogal Dorn and his two handed chainsword who attacks last, let's hope the Lion doesn't fall into the same category :/ This still drives me insane Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Poor Rogal Dorn and his two handed chainsword who attacks last, let's hope the Lion doesn't fall into the same category :/ This still drives me insane If it's any consolation, a sword made of a chainsaw would probably be heavier than a regular sword. And besides, doesn't he have a powerfist or a lightning claw so he can hit.......oh! ;) It's in character. He's the shield of Terra. He's meant to take a beating, THEN hit back. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Poor Rogal Dorn and his two handed chainsword who attacks last, let's hope the Lion doesn't fall into the same category :/This still drives me insaneIf it's any consolation, a sword made of a chainsaw would probably be heavier than a regular sword. And besides, doesn't he have a powerfist or a lightning claw so he can hit.......oh! ;) It's in character. He's the shield of Terra. He's meant to take a beating, THEN hit back. :) The unofficial rule: "The first one's free." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Its more liely there will be a rule limitting the use of veterans ina DA army and using more tacticals etc, to represent that very few calibanites have managed to get t veteran status, plus The Lion, does not keep many Terrans (veterans) around, as he fears they will second-guess his orders. Beyond that a top duellist. Maybe a -1 or 2 to initiative for using a massive broadsword, but with very good defensive capabilities, or trades all attacks for one Lightning strike at Initiative 11 Strength +2 or something.. If we're to use real world examples (I know, everything goes out the window when I say that :P), he shouldn't lose speed from using a two handed sword. More likely the case, he should actually be faster since he'd have reach with the longer blade. Often times, we fall into this trap that movies portray weapons as being insanely heavy :) maybe if he was using something like a claymore would he be remotely slowed down, but even something up to Montante size is able to be wielded quite quickly. Plus, he straps the dang sword to his hip, so that tells me it can't logically be too big (for primarch size I mean). Agreed. I'm thinking Aragorn in LOTR. Moves fast enough two handed. I've said I'd like to see sword and shield in the interests of variety but an enormous claymore would be pretty cool too. Lets assume the sword Cypher is carrying is the Lion Dagger. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Dorn's rules are fine, aside from the Unwieldy weapon. It should Strike at initiative. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Alan Bligh did say at the Weekender that Dorn's weapon was very, very big. Perhaps when the model comes out we'll see why it's unwieldy. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Hopefully it does. 'cuz "its a really big Chainsword" doesnt cut it for some of us. But no, Lion should not have Unwieldy. If anything should modify his initiative, it should lower it instead of reduce it to 1. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_out Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Hopefully it does. 'cuz "its a really big Chainsword" doesnt cut it for some of us. But no, Lion should not have Unwieldy. If anything should modify his initiative, it should lower it instead of reduce it to 1. I'm of the same mind. Dorns weapon should have 2 profiles. One where he strikes at initiative using base strength and the other for when he cuts his attacks in half for that special ability that makes it S10 (I think that's how it worked) I could see the Lion having 2 different attack options similar to that. One at initiative and another at I1 with half base attacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Reaper Chainsword? ;) To get back to the Lion - I dont think you can limit veterans. The Ist legion ARE the veterans. A "distrust" rule needs to affect the way they interact with the Lion. I think if the Lions on the table they're non-scoring. He doesn't trust them to hold objectives. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Reaper Chainsword? ;) To get back to the Lion - I dont think you can limit veterans. The Ist legion ARE the veterans. A "distrust" rule needs to affect the way they interact with the Lion. I think if the Lions on the table they're non-scoring. He doesn't trust them to hold objectives. I think he trusts most of his own legion, I think it sometimes gets blown out of proportion sometimes :) He obviously entrusted warriors to go after Curze on his ship and for Corswain to break off with a good portion of the legion as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Good point. There definitely needs to be some interaction if Luther is on the board (I think it's a given that Luther will happen). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1000 Sons Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Reaper Chainsword? To get back to the Lion - I dont think you can limit veterans. The Ist legion ARE the veterans. A "distrust" rule needs to affect the way they interact with the Lion. I think if the Lions on the table they're non-scoring. He doesn't trust them to hold objectives. I think he trusts most of his own legion, I think it sometimes gets blown out of proportion sometimes He obviously entrusted warriors to go after Curze on his ship and for Corswain to break off with a good portion of the legion as well. I don't think it should be labeled as distrust, the Lion probably thought everything was in order, it is the legion that don't like, or trust the Lion. I think a rule that plays that out would be very interesting. Maybe at the end of the game each scoring unit on an objective has to make a leadership test, or a roll of the dice, if it fails they don't score the objective and are part of the Fallen, or a loyalist legion in a force led by Luther. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Thats about perspective, I guess. I'm thinking of the "shadow fleets" keeping tabs on the Terrans. That sounds like distrust to me. Of course, the only real mention of the distrust comes from a known traitor (or is he?;))* in the 40K cannon. The more I think about it, the more I want FW to start from scratch. *He is! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Highly doubt the Lion's sword is unwieldy...look at how he sucker-stabs Curze. I don't think he could've done that with an unwieldy weapon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Fluff does not equal rules, friend. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 I want to see him with a ball and chain. For no other reason just to mix it up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/2/#findComment-4213589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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