Slips Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Its not that hes one of the best since Ferrus, Vulkan, Horus and Guilliman all have S10 Hits much like Perturabo with Forgebreaker which is why they're the best suited to Kneecapping Titans alongside Angron. A bit odd that Guilliman has S10 hits like Vulkan and Ferrus...what's FW's rationalisation of this? Will he be a better duelist than Fulgrim? Doubt it. But he wont be far behind. Why do you doubt it? Bobby G has a Power Fist. S6 Base :p Its more or less Fulgrims whole point that he was kinda the perfect duelist. Lion is a Knight. Its part of his martial upbringing but not the focus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Its not that hes one of the best since Ferrus, Vulkan, Horus and Guilliman all have S10 Hits much like Perturabo with Forgebreaker which is why they're the best suited to Kneecapping Titans alongside Angron. A bit odd that Guilliman has S10 hits like Vulkan and Ferrus...what's FW's rationalisation of this? Will he be a better duelist than Fulgrim? Doubt it. But he wont be far behind. Why do you doubt it? Bobby G has a Power Fist. S6 Base :p Its more or less Fulgrims whole point that he was kinda the perfect duelist. Lion is a Knight. Its part of his martial upbringing but not the focus. Yeah Fulgrim does all those fancy sweeps and cuts like a saber dueler, but you don't pick an actual fight with the Lion/a knight. They'll muthaeffin' half sword or pommel your face in. They don't fight just for honor, they fight to win. I could see from a fluff-to-rules thing having the Lion cause lots of wounds. He should be just a gigantic wound generator. For example, him fighting Curze the first time and delivering that sword thrust, or the second time when he eviscerates Curze with death by a thousand cuts. He shouldn't be as fast Fulgrim, nor as killy as Angron, but he should be a pressuring force. As in: If you don't kill him the first round or so, he's going to bring you down through weight of wounds. It would also be cool to see his sword get some sort of anti-IWND :P that would be an interesting rules quirk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I reckon, the Lion should have a first strike type of rule. On Tsugualsa or whateveer its name is, he got the first hit in on Curze (even if underhanded) and as the fight drew on the HAunter levelled things out and daresay started getting the upper hand. In the story where he slices Curzes throat, it's like a why won't you just die? kind of moment when he comes out ahead. I reckon a first strike rue and maybe do he pposite of Guillemann where he become less effective as a duel goes on, or at least less effective for a Primarch, to give the others an opening. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I reckon, the Lion should have a first strike type of rule. On Tsugualsa or whateveer its name is, he got the first hit in on Curze (even if underhanded) and as the fight drew on the HAunter levelled things out and daresay started getting the upper hand. In the story where he slices Curzes throat, it's like a why won't you just die? kind of moment when he comes out ahead. I reckon a first strike rue and maybe do he pposite of Guillemann where he become less effective as a duel goes on, or at least less effective for a Primarch, to give the others an opening. Can't agree with you on that one. I don't think the first strike thing is a thing. It was just one incident. I think the Lion should be able to take Curze apart. Duelling is not Really what Curze does, nor I think in his nature or character. Curze eats troops. That doesn't mean Curze can't beat him, just that Johnson is better primarch vs primarch and will win a duel 9 times out of 10. If the Lion can go toe to toe with Russ for 2 days, i think he should (normally) beat Curze. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Russ & Lion wasn't a duel as such. It was a mega version of WWE. A brawl. For sure Jonson should take the like of Curze apart, but I am trying to think of ways to make the Lion diffeent, rather than a cookie-cutter Primarch. Jonson is famed for tactical plannng and intelligence gathering. So he knows his foes strengths and weakness & the best way to achieve victory. Rather than make him an alpha strike Primarch which would be cool (Blade of Glory, strike first in the first round of combat no matter who initiates it, steals initiative on a 4+ or deathwing/drop pod assault). The alternative is maybe like the GK codex, where he takes different knightly stanes each turn in a challenge/duel. A turn where he has a blistering amount of attacks, a turn where he is purely defensive and blunts the enemies assault? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Russ & Lion wasn't a duel as such. It was a mega version of WWE. A brawl. For sure Jonson should take the like of Curze apart, but I am trying to think of ways to make the Lion diffeent, rather than a cookie-cutter Primarch. Jonson is famed for tactical plannng and intelligence gathering. So he knows his foes strengths and weakness & the best way to achieve victory. Rather than make him an alpha strike Primarch which would be cool (Blade of Glory, strike first in the first round of combat no matter who initiates it, steals initiative on a 4+ or deathwing/drop pod assault). The alternative is maybe like the GK codex, where he takes different knightly stanes each turn in a challenge/duel. A turn where he has a blistering amount of attacks, a turn where he is purely defensive and blunts the enemies assault? Fair enough, I see what you're saying. I definitely feel more diversity is good, and I like the stances. A high intiative stance fits for me, he's flexible enough as a swordsman and it fits with the Curze fight. High initiative, lower defense. I've also been trying to think of Luther and how he should interact with the Lion. It'd be nice to see two characters with a direct influence on each other but short of forcing players to take both, it'll be hard to balance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Luther was always the charasmatic, while the Lon was more calculating. One would lead by force of personality, while the other by example I woud imagine that Luther would be the type to give better leadership and anti-fear type abilities to the knights, more a force multiplier. The Lion could be inspiring but was more insular, so imagine his would be more biased to buffing himself and possibly the unit he is with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_out Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Giving him different stances would be freaking awesome. Great way to get some variety from a single model and I believe if anyone should, it'd be the Lion. I'm also quite curious how they'll sculpt him. If he doesn't get a head of long, wild hair I'm gonna be pretty upset. OR A HELMET?!?!?! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Helmet or hooded! No other option! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Stances have already been done. I just think he should receive a bonus to his invul or weapon skill when fighting in a challenge. I literally can't picture the Lion in my mind. Is there any decent art of him? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Was Luther fighting with the Dark Angels at all during the Horus Heresy. I thought in 1 of the books he had been on Caliban for 50+ years or something like that training ecruits and sending them out to join the Lion. If that is the case, they may not make or create rules for Luther. How about this for art? http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y524/Taron_James_Beer/Mobile%20Uploads/the_iconostasis_by_d1sarmon1a-d8rdjrk_zpsjun1grhs.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 The Lion needs not rank at all. Loyalty is it's own reward ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_out Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Stances have already been done. I just think he should receive a bonus to his invul or weapon skill when fighting in a challenge. I literally can't picture the Lion in my mind. Is there any decent art of him? None that I know of which is why I'm so curious what they'll do with him! Hopefully some form of lions head motif on a pauldron or something at minimum with a big :cuss: sword that isn't unwieldy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I actually enjoy the "less popular" ones more from FW. The ones where they basically had nothing to go on. Perturabo, Alpharius, Dorn to a lesser extent. The less Black Library the better when it comes to rules it would seem. ;) Like Horus? There are few outright instances of his power, up until Vengeful Spirit and the less said about that book, the better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I actually enjoy the "less popular" ones more from FW. The ones where they basically had nothing to go on. Perturabo, Alpharius, Dorn to a lesser extent. The less Black Library the better when it comes to rules it would seem. ;) Like Horus? There are few outright instances of his power, up until Vengeful Spirit and the less said about that book, the better. Yeah. While he played a big role, there was no real Horus vs Astartes or Primarchs until recently. In my opinion, it gave FW more room to play with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 On Tsugualsa or whateveer its name is, he got the first hit in on Curze (even if underhanded) and as the fight drew on the HAunter levelled things out and daresay started getting the upper hand. Y`know what...how did Curze choke the Lion WITH LIGHTNING CLAWS??? In the story where he slices Curzes throat, it's like a why won't you just die? kind of moment when he comes out ahead "Comes out ahead" is a bit of an understatement Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Heh. The Lion should have some music playing behind him when he's hunting Curze. He's like a 9 foot tall genetically engineered Geralt of Rivia XD Use Lion Senses to track Curze through the belly of the ship... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Which music though, Pink Panther or Thundercats theme tune? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_out Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 On Tsugualsa or whateveer its name is, he got the first hit in on Curze (even if underhanded) and as the fight drew on the HAunter levelled things out and daresay started getting the upper hand. Y`know what...how did Curze choke the Lion WITH LIGHTNING CLAWS??? In the story where he slices Curzes throat, it's like a why won't you just die? kind of moment when he comes out ahead "Comes out ahead" is a bit of an understatement They're totally retractable! Haven't you seen his model!? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tychii Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 the lion is such a mystery to be honest. I think he will have some sort of hidden deployment (aka yrmgarrl genestealers) type. I think that opposed to reserve manipulation. Also a list of 3-6 secret objectives for him to earn extra victory points with that, are revealed when they are completed. Stat wise I dont see him having anything above the base primarch stats bar +1 ws perhaps. The wargear for him will be the interesting part for me. No idea what they will do with that. Maybe cause 2 wounds in duels or something, but really I don't see why to be honest. Other then that he will have a rule regarding Luther, and a negative to having them in the same army. Like Luther can't score or gives 1vp for free. But we will see really. Any stat boosts have to be rationalised vs the other primarchs. Is he faster then Curze, is he as fast as Fugrim, is he as strong or as furious as angron. Nothing really stands out in the stat department for him really, other then maybe his leadership. But in the end we will see, I hope they do him justice, as I want my Curze to run around ripping his little sons apart in front of him before murdering him for the lying traitor he is :") Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 On Tsugualsa or whateveer its name is, he got the first hit in on Curze (even if underhanded) and as the fight drew on the HAunter levelled things out and daresay started getting the upper hand. Y`know what...how did Curze choke the Lion WITH LIGHTNING CLAWS??? In the story where he slices Curzes throat, it's like a why won't you just die? kind of moment when he comes out ahead "Comes out ahead" is a bit of an understatement They're totally retractable! Haven't you seen his model!? Why wouldn't he extend them when choking the Lion? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_out Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 On Tsugualsa or whateveer its name is, he got the first hit in on Curze (even if underhanded) and as the fight drew on the HAunter levelled things out and daresay started getting the upper hand. Y`know what...how did Curze choke the Lion WITH LIGHTNING CLAWS??? In the story where he slices Curzes throat, it's like a why won't you just die? kind of moment when he comes out ahead "Comes out ahead" is a bit of an understatement They're totally retractable! Haven't you seen his model!? Why wouldn't he extend them when choking the Lion? Because he thoroughly enjoyed physically choking him, duh! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4216930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 His lightning claws aren't over his fingers, he still has his hands free for all his choking needs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4217019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Choking out someone is a form of domination, showing that the life of someone is literally in your hands. Although Cudze might have wanted the Lion dead, he would have appreciated the dramatic and choking the lion despite its inefficiency (Guilliman able to survive in the void for 10 minutes (hours?)), says more about things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4217070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 All this impaling with swords and choking out is getting really homoerotic, more than Top Gun :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/4/#findComment-4217080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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