b1soul Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 IIRC Russ attacked the Lion after the Lion beat him to an objective...the two fought for a day or something like that...Russ started laughing at the ridiculousness of the situation and the Lion punched him unconscious. I don't think this was a case of the Lion exhibiting a hair-trigger temper. He had good reason to be really annoyed Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4221739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 IIRC Russ attacked the Lion after the Lion beat him to an objective...the two fought for a day or something like that...Russ started laughing at the ridiculousness of the situation and the Lion punched him unconscious. I don't think this was a case of the Lion exhibiting a hair-trigger temper. He had good reason to be really annoyed The lion didn't punch him unconscious, he stabbed him through one of his hearts... with his sword. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4221877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 IIRC Russ attacked the Lion after the Lion beat him to an objective...the two fought for a day or something like that...Russ started laughing at the ridiculousness of the situation and the Lion punched him unconscious. I don't think this was a case of the Lion exhibiting a hair-trigger temper. He had good reason to be really annoyed The lion didn't punch him unconscious, he stabbed him through one of his hearts... with his sword. You sure..? I always heard it as he punched him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4221879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Never heard he was stabbed. Always heard it was a sucker punch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4221888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Lexicanum says he punched him unconscious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4221889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 It was a sucker punch Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4221903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 He was punched unconscious, unless ret-conned. It was detailed in previous Space Wolves codicii. Russ was upset that he was beaten to an Imperial Governor or some-such who had rebelled against the Imperium and insulted Russ. Russ tried running up the guts of the enemy, but the Lion who had scouted the area took a different route. The Wolves flank was exposed and Russ lost a lot of warriors while the Dark Angels carried the day, Russ got really mad when he saw the Lion kill the traitor governor. Raging about this Russ confronted the Lion and struck the first blow, the Lion seeing this as a treacherous act hit back and they brawled. At the end, Russ broke away from the fight and laughed, his anger spent, but the Lion did not forgive the first strike, seeing it as a dishonourable act and punched Russ, knocking him unconscious. More on topic: No each Primarch had a preferred fighting style and barring a few wee things here and there they remain the same. The Lion should be the same as his brothers... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4221907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I thought Russ started laughing after he was thrown through a table...whatever the case...seems like Russ likes trolling other primarchs, sometimes to his own detriment Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4221910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I thought Russ started laughing after he was thrown through a table...whatever the case...seems like Russ likes trolling other primarchs, sometimes to his own detriment He laughed because he realised how silly they were being. He wasn't trolling anyone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4221920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Russ was acting like a fool that day, no two ways about it. It was a brawl, however - not a real fight. We shouldn't really use it as an example to compare their strength. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4221927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I will agree it was not Russ' finest hour, picking a fight with the Lion, the only reasoning is that he was angry that he never got the kill the guy who insulted him and tat the Lion had cost him a lot of men by leaving his flank open. Sometimes you react and regret it afterwards. No Primarch was perfect :) Anyway discussion of Russ is not what the OP intended for this thread, so lets get it back on topic eh? Lion, a great strategist, but sorely lacking in the charisma stakes. Plus he can't read peoples intentions. Should buff his army for stealing initiative and a few tactical advantages, but no morale buffs and a restriction on allies? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4221932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Russ picked a lot of fights, and always got his ass kicked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4222212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 The Stabbing was after the Siege of Terra, but to be completely fair, Russ threw his arms wide open for the Lion to stab him. As for the knocking out, it was a fair fight and the Lion just sucker punched Russ. To be honest, I'd actually love to hear what was going on between the two legions during this 1-2 day brawl. Were the two legions sharing a pint of Mjod and betting on the winners? Or were the Dark Angels doing Robe laundry while the Rout chased space squirrels? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4222240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Russ was acting like a fool that day, no two ways about it. It was a brawl, however - not a real fight. We shouldn't really use it as an example to compare their strength. No one is doing that...though I wouldn't dismiss it completely as it shows the 2 primarchs are evenly matched in a physical brawl. I don't think that many primarchs could actually brawl Russ to a stalemate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4222313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 The Stabbing was after the Siege of Terra, but to be completely fair, Russ threw his arms wide open for the Lion to stab him. As for the knocking out, it was a fair fight and the Lion just sucker punched Russ. To be honest, I'd actually love to hear what was going on between the two legions during this 1-2 day brawl. Were the two legions sharing a pint of Mjod and betting on the winners? Or were the Dark Angels doing Robe laundry while the Rout chased space squirrels? Ah, I didn't realize he fought him twice. I just remembered at one point of time he got stabbed through the heart. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4222607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I thought older fluff had them brawling with anything to hand. Both were beaten, stabbed, shot and Russ ended up fighting on with a sword through one of his hearts. Pretty sure this was retconned to fistycuffs though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4222682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saphrael Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Lexicanum is our friend. The first incident occurred mostly as described, though we should note that the "you left my flank exposed" angle is newer and from the Space Wolf codex, so is likely a representation of how the Wolves see it, rather than being objectively true. I say this because the Dark Angel response to being accused of leaving the SW flank exposed would be "Jonson meticulously planned the attack to perfection (which is kind of his specialty) and Russ got hot headed (which is kind of his speciality) and ignored the plan, going for personal satisfaction rather than tactical precision. It's his own fault his men died." Like in all things Warhammer related the unreliable narrator likely means the truth is somewhere in the middle. The second incident is likely to get changed as it's from a narrative of the Heresy which is out-dated in light of the Black Library novels. Essentially Jonson was really angry at Russ for stopping to liberate systems on the way to Terra because he believed the delay prevented them from reaching the Siege in time to help the Emperor. In his rage and despair the Lion went to stab Russ (who let the attack come unhindered), piercing one heart and turning aside at the last second before piercing the second. After that they went back to being friends. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4222683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Second story sounds absolutely ridiculous Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4222710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millicant Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 So the second story goes as follows: On the way to Terra, Russ insisted on stopping to reclaim all the worlds and systems that Horus had taken from the Imperium. The Lion was frustrated and wanted to race to Terra but did not abandon Russ along the way. Upon arriving at Terra and discovering they were too late to save the Emperor, both Primarchs were understandably upset. Russ, deciding that he was at fault for the two Legions not reaching Terra in time, bared his chest to the Lion. The Lion thrust his sword into Russ's chest and pierced one of his hearts, but at the very last fraction of a second realized that he could not kill his loyal brother, even at said brothers own behest, and diverted his blade from piercing Russ's second heart. Ridiculous? I didn't think so, I've always loved that story, but to each his own. :) On topic, I think there are some excellent ideas here. The real problem for me is that one of the Lion's defining qualities was his unparalleled strategic/tactical prowess. Kind of hard to demonstrate that sort of thing on the table top. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4222776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saphrael Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Don't have the original source with me, but I don't think Russ bared his chest unbidden as an admission of fault. It was more that Jonson got angry and blamed Russ and his response was along the lines of "Fine, if you think it's my fault then kill me." Obviously I'll defer to anyone who has the material on hand. Back on topic, I agree completely with you Millicant, that has always been the defining characteristic of his abilities, long before we thought of his as a top tier fighter. The short pieces we originally had on him seemed to emphasise strategic prowess and campaign management/planning over small scale tactical acumen though. Unfortunately most in-game rules advantages seem to suggest tactics rather than strategy. Bonuses to reserves/reserve manipulation and improvements to Sieze the Initiative are the only mechanics I can think of to represent startegic brilliance, but they're pretty played out in other primarchs. You could let controlling players choose the board edge or deployment map, but that's probably too meta and would annoy opponents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4222855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Why would Russ delay the rush back to Terra??? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4223073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Why would Russ delay the rush back to Terra??? Well I mean, there were loyal Imperial worlds under attack and - OOH LOOK! A SPACE SQUIRREL!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4223162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millicant Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Why would Russ delay the rush back to Terra??? It wasn't an intentional dragging of the feet or anything, it was that he insisted on stopping to reclaim every world along the way. A bit of the Space Wolves fluff that has sort of fallen by the wayside, unfortunately, is that traditionally the Wolves were very adamant protectors of humanity. Russ didn't want to delay the journey to Terra, but he couldn't condone a beeline like the Lion wanted because it would leave so many worlds in the traitors' grip. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4223174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Doesn't make a lick of sense IMO... His priorities out of whack...and completely inconsistent with current 30K SW portrayal. Glad this fluff was dropped. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4223243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Doesn't make a lick of sense IMO... His priorities out of whack...and completely inconsistent with current 30K SW portrayal. Glad this fluff was dropped. It doesn't make sense that they would liberate worlds *in their path* thag belong to the emperor and currently *reinforce* the enemies with slaves and recruits? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/6/#findComment-4223387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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