Demus Ragnok Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 . IMO.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/7/#findComment-4223392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_out Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I think maybe him supplying a way to redeploy a certain amount of units, maybe D3?, after an opponents deployment but before scout moves could be a neat way to show how he adjusts a battle plan against an enemy. Just spit balling here Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/7/#findComment-4223397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saphrael Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 His priorities out of whack...and completely inconsistent with current 30K SW portrayal. Glad this fluff was dropped. It's a matter of personal taste really. The SW as humanitarians angle comes from a time long before 3rd Ed. Armageddon codex, so no one was talking about Salamanders, let alone them having that as a prevalent theme. At that time I thought it was a nice way of contrasting the Wolves with the DA and building on the animosity/sibling rivalry between them. But I also hate most of the newer 30k SW (and especially DA) elements, so maybe I'm just a grumpy old man. As for ranking the Lion, has anyone done an updated comparison of the TT abilities of the primarchs after book V came out? Might help add some empiricism to the discussion? When it comes to rules/stats for Jonson I think his stats should be identical to Curze's as there doesn't seem like much to distinguish the two physically. In other threads I've advocated for the DA legion rule to be along the lines of Pride of the First: +1WS and +1Ld when outnumbered in combat. This would obviously apply to the Lion most of the time, which could provide a nice, circumstantial boost. I'd also advocate for a rule similar to Fulgrim's Sublime Swordsman rule, whereby the Lion gains additional attacks based on the difference between his and his opponents WS, divided by two (rounding up). Taking into account the Pride of the First rule that would mean Jonson would have a base of 5+1 attacks against WS7-8, 5+2 attacks against WS5-6 and 5+3 attacks against WS3-4. Feels about right for a master swordsman/knight. Combine that with a two handed, +3S, AP2 Lion Sword and you've got a strong duellist (though not top tier) who can also mulch unsupported troops, which is where I see the Lion. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/7/#findComment-4223682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Doesn't make a lick of sense IMO... His priorities out of whack...and completely inconsistent with current 30K SW portrayal. Glad this fluff was dropped. It doesn't make sense that they would liberate worlds *in their path* thag belong to the emperor and currently *reinforce* the enemies with slaves and recruits?It doesn't make sense when there is time-pressure to prevent the loss of the throne world and the Emperor himself. We know how loyal Russ is to the Emperor (perhaps this was different in older fluff)...so Russ prioritizing other worlds when Terra and the Emperor are in jeopardy doesn't make a lick of sense (IMO...because I can respect other ppl's opinions) from the perspective of Russ's character (intense loyalty to the Emp) or from a tactical perspective EDIT: delaying the rush to Terra makes more sense for humanitarian, mead-swilling, emotional, old fluff Russ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/7/#findComment-4223693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Why would Russ delay the rush back to Terra??? From what I remembered about the older material, the worlds that Russ stopped to save were powerful forge worlds along the route to Terra. It is recognition of these actions that had the main battle tank of the Imperial Guard be named after him. So he stopped to gain war material, and because he may have believed an Emperor needed an Empire to lead. A straight dash to Horus and Terra would have left many worlds in the grip of the traitors, making the Scouring to come that much more difficult. Maybe even impossible. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/7/#findComment-4223743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Exactly. It may be a mad rush to Terra, but Horus had ALL of the supply lines, all of the manufacturing, all of recruitment locations, and all of advantages of those not being besieged. It makes sense for a general (especially one with a weakened army from the battles) to take advantage of that situation to 1) replenish supplies, 2) deny the enemy of supplies, manpower, fall back points, and 3)... I was going to say something but forgot Also, from what I understand, he just had a come to Jesus moment where he realized he needed to change. This could include not rushing into situations like a rabid dog, and helping those who need it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/7/#findComment-4223789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I think we've gone a bit off topic here.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/7/#findComment-4223975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Why would Russ delay the rush back to Terra??? From what I remembered about the older material, the worlds that Russ stopped to save were powerful forge worlds along the route to Terra. It is recognition of these actions that had the main battle tank of the Imperial Guard be named after him. So he stopped to gain war material, and because he may have believed an Emperor needed an Empire to lead. A straight dash to Horus and Terra would have left many worlds in the grip of the traitors, making the Scouring to come that much more difficult. Maybe even impossible. WLK Terra and Emp >>> Forge Worlds Cutting off the head of the rebellion >>> acquiring war material Keeping the Emperor alive and healthy would be more important than securing forge worlds...priorities. What good are Forge Worlds if the Emp, Malcador, Dorn, Sanguinius, Khan, Valdor, 3 legions and the Custodes are all dead...because that's the potential risk of delaying. I believe ppl are saying that according to the old fluff, he did it for humanitarian reasons, not because he wanted to secure materiel...which one is it? Neither is really consistent with the current portrayal of Russ and Vlka Fenryka Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/7/#findComment-4224233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_out Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 And none of these posts has anything to do with the topic at hand either soooo..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/7/#findComment-4224238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Why would Russ delay the rush back to Terra??? From what I remembered about the older material, the worlds that Russ stopped to save were powerful forge worlds along the route to Terra. It is recognition of these actions that had the main battle tank of the Imperial Guard be named after him. So he stopped to gain war material, and because he may have believed an Emperor needed an Empire to lead. A straight dash to Horus and Terra would have left many worlds in the grip of the traitors, making the Scouring to come that much more difficult. Maybe even impossible. WLK Terra and Emp >>> Forge Worlds Cutting off the head of the rebellion >>> acquiring war material Keeping the Emperor alive and healthy would be more important than securing forge worlds...priorities. What good are Forge Worlds if the Emp, Malcador, Dorn, Sanguinius, Khan, Valdor, 3 legions and the Custodes are all dead...because that's the potential risk of delaying. I believe ppl are saying that according to the old fluff, he did it for humanitarian reasons, not because he wanted to secure materiel...which one is it? Neither is really consistent with the current portrayal of Russ and Vlka Fenryka Not everything is binary, and his fleet got beat pretty bad with prospero and the Alpha Legion. No use getting to terra and you cant make it past the traitor blocade with crippled ships. So materiel is a valid reason at the very least. Anyways. Who wants to see the lion holding his sword high in one hand, and taunting his opponent forward with the other? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/7/#findComment-4224278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 To relate what we said that was off topic: it goes to show that the lion is more willing to rush in without necessarily thinking about the imperium as a whole picture. So maybe rules that reflect a self enhancing opportunity (I mean, we have seen him do stupid things for the wrong people to give him an advantage). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/7/#findComment-4224292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 ++Alright folks, we're getting a little heated and snippy. Go take a break.++ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315503-where-do-you-think-the-lion-will-rank-table-top-wise/page/7/#findComment-4224438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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